213 réponses à ce sujet

[Gaxhung]

Grommash94 wrote...
Sort of begs the question; how exactly did the Guardian know each character's inner problems? We have no evidence that spirits can see into your subconcious, or mages either.

We all know that spirits are not imaginitive and copy whatever they see in the real world....so it is possible that the spririts in the gauntlet based themselves off real people and their exploits. They never really CONFIRM that the Maker is real though, just that Andraste did this and this and was killed.

Wha? We saw this during the prologue -- Tevinter mages entered the Golden City, Maker cast them down, turned them into the first darkspawn, and the darkspawn are real, and later, when we entered the fade, we saw the Black city, in the form of a clickable tent codex. So if those are real, then so is the Maker!

When I say real, I meant real in the DA world ...

[Wittand25]

Helena Tylena wrote...
Good point, though I still think it's unlikely. Diskworld uses it as the basis for the existence of everything (if noone believe someone exists, that person included, he ceases to exist, god or mortal alike). It would be little more than a gimmicky way of explaining the Ashes, as it's used nowhere else in Dragon Age lore.
Also, why the Ashes? Why that specific object in that specific place? And how did people know to build a temple exactly there?

Casting a spell is nothing different than changing the world to something you want it to be, every mage is capable of that in a limited way and it is clearly stated that when more mages work together they become more powerful/capable. Every human and elf in Thedas is connected to the fade and able to partially enter it during sleep, they may not be strong enough connected to cast a spell on their own but all of their belief focused could influence the world .
Why the cross in Christianity ? During the roman empire crucifiction was a common way of execution for low lives and early Christianity did not have crosses in their churches the cross became a symbol several centuries after the crucifiction. Another case is the trinity of womanhood (maiden,mother and crone) in modern day paganism. There is no historic evidence that prior to 1900 anybody on this planet believed that this is important (groups of females in the past vary in numbers and are usually sisters of roughly equal age) but after an english folklorist put forth the theory of such a trinity it quickly became canon for Wiccans and other new pagans.
Just because the ashes are a symbol now does not mean that they always have been or will remain one for the rest of eternity. As for their origin, they might be genuine they might be faked by some power hungry prophet some centuries ago it does not really matter.

Modifié par Wittand25, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:59 .

[Helena Tylena]

Gaxhung wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...
Sort of begs the question; how exactly did the Guardian know each character's inner problems? We have no evidence that spirits can see into your subconcious, or mages either.

We all know that spirits are not imaginitive and copy whatever they see in the real world....so it is possible that the spririts in the gauntlet based themselves off real people and their exploits. They never really CONFIRM that the Maker is real though, just that Andraste did this and this and was killed.

Wha? We saw this during the prologue -- Tevinter mages entered the Golden City, Maker cast them down, turned them into the first darkspawn, and the darkspawn are real, and later, when we entered the fade, we saw the Black city, in the form of a clickable tent codex. So if those are real, then so is the Maker!

When I say real, I meant real in the DA world ...

The prologue says 'the Chantry teaches us'. Doesn't mean anything only that that is the established belief within the world.

[Gaxhung]

Helena Tylena wrote...
The prologue says 'the Chantry teaches us'. Doesn't mean anything only that that is the established belief within the world.

Oh right, thats indeed what it says, its merely legend. Then was the story about the Tevinters entering the Golden City told that way merely due to deep racial resentment? Its interesting that thats all Thedans will know regarding past events, knowledge gained through religious texts.

But how can the maker not exist when we can enter spirit realms, and the point made about Andraste's ashes and the guadians spirits.

Edit: And Mafareth in the trials confirms his jeolousy. Him and Andraste would need to be deepy intoxicated for a very long period of time, to make believe the existence of a fictional Maker and his love for her, just so they can end their lives in the most tragic fashions possible.

Modifié par Gaxhung, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:32 .

[DanteCousland]

The ashes, haha my friend they were defiled in my playthrough. silly Leliana just had to object...had to put her down.

[IronVanguard]

All this Chantry talk is making me wonder what we may learn of the Qun. I'm hoping for a human convert, myself. Well, non-Qunari follower of the Qun, but you get what I mean. Probably hiding in a hole from the Templars, of course....

[Riona45]

Lintanis wrote...

Riona45 wrote...


I'm not sure about that.  If you're talking about the spririts in the temple, I never took it that they're there to give you an accurate accounting of historical events, or that they are literally the spirits of real people.  I met "Jowan" at the end, even though there was no indication in the game that Jowan was deceased at that point.

Dont think the person you meet in the temple has to be dead, just who the guardian picks up in your mind 

Uh, that was kinda my point.

[Grommash94]

Gaxhung wrote...

Helena Tylena wrote...
The prologue says 'the Chantry teaches us'. Doesn't mean anything only that that is the established belief within the world.

Oh right, thats indeed what it says, its merely legend. Then was the story about the Tevinters entering the Golden City told that way merely due to deep racial resentment? Its interesting that thats all Thedans will know regarding past events, knowledge gained through religious texts.

But how can the maker not exist when we can enter spirit realms, and the point made about Andraste's ashes and the guadians spirits.

Edit: And Mafareth in the trials confirms his jeolousy. Him and Andraste would need to be deepy intoxicated for a very long period of time, to make believe the existence of a fictional Maker and his love for her, just so they can end their lives in the most tragic fashions possible.

I have actually been thinking more about the theory I posted earlier. Thedosians worshipped the Old Gods, who, at one time, had walked the face of Thedas and had taught creatures how to use magic. However, they were also malicious, teaching the Tevinters about blood magic, and that they and they alone were gods. The Maker (whether he is an omnipotent creater or an extremely powerful, benovolent spirit is irrelevant) did not approve of this, and, well, imprisoned them underground. Obviously, they wanted to be free again, and so convinced the magisters that they had the power to defeat the Maker, even though the Old Gods knew that the magisters would not be succesful. Of course, the Tevinters failed, and became darkspawn, drawn to the call of the Old Gods, and went about freeing them.

I really think that something did once inhabit the Golden City, and that something is what the Chantry worships; there is a lot of evidence. Whether it created everything and is omniscient/omnipotent is an entirely different matter.

Modifié par Grommash94, 15 juillet 2010 - 05:15 .

[aries1001]

1) There is no year 0, simply because the 0 (zero) didn't exist in Western culture - for many years. the zero (0) was invented, or thought of, first by the Indians (it seems), then it travelled through Arabia to become part of Europe at some time in the 11th or 12th century, it seems. However, the number zero did not gain widespread acceptance before the 15th or 16th century, simply because it was first in these centuries mathematicians and tradesmen needed the century. Try multiplying XVV (25) times XXXVII (37) in Roman Numerals, and you'll see why the number 0 and the decade system is great for doing math.
2) The birth of JC was, in fact, determined by a monk (I think?) many centuries later...

And now to add the the topic:

3) The stories behind the history of Dragon Age (and Thedas) is made so that (maybe?) only the writers now what is the real truth here. There's probably 'the chantry line' and then there's the Tevinter line - on how things have panned out in Thedas.

4) As for Hawke, he does sound like an interesting character. And I sort of like the whole new take on the narrative structure where the events are being retold by narrators, but are played out in real-time.

5) Andraste could have been a mage yes, and as to what The Golden City is (or what), ideas abound. And who's to say whose ideas are the correct ones.

6) Apparently, the Makes abandoned the Golden City a long time ago - so maybe there was no Maker at all - in the beginning - or maybe there was?

7) As for magic, I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who once said that any sort of technology (to people who are not as modern as some other people) will appear as magic. This could easily have been the case with Andraste, the Maker and the Tevinter Imperium.

Modifié par aries1001, 15 juillet 2010 - 06:33 .

[Grommash94]

aries1001 wrote...



7) As for magic, I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who once said that any sort of technology (to people who are not as modern as some other people) will appear as magic. This could easily have been the case with Andraste, the Maker and the Tevinter Imperium.

Problem is there is magic in Thedas. Who knows just how powerful somes mages can be?

[svenus97]

The last section of the last page makes me want to play DA:O again...



Anyways, that history behind Kirkwall seems very interesting, I wonder how will my Mage Hawke + Bethany overthrow the Chantry... I want to see Greagori

[StephenCharles]

Very interesting read! Kirkwall should be a great city to explore and become the champion of Can't wait to kill some Chantry!

[aries1001]

Grommash94 wrote...

aries1001 wrote...



7) As for magic, I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who once said that any sort of technology (to people who are not as modern as some other people) will appear as magic. This could easily have been the case with Andraste, the Maker and the Tevinter Imperium.

Problem is there is magic in Thedas. Who knows just how powerful somes mages can be?

Yes, I know.

The point was, hower, to mention that maybe, just maybe another race (dwarf or elfs or an unknown lost race) did have a technology so advanced that it to the Tevinter Imperium or the people of Ferelden looked similar to magic. After all, liquid nitroen causes people to freeze when it comes into contact with their skin (living tissue).
http://en.wikipedia....Liquid_nitrogen

To those that do not know this, it will appear or look like it was done by - magic.

If you hit someone with a frost spell in DA:Origins such as Cone of Cold, or Winter's Grasp, they will be frozen, either for a short while or for a very long time. And if you then swing a sword or mace at them, they will shatter, break into pieces - much like things do if you hit them with a hammer - aften having sprayed them with liquid nitrogen.

And I do believe that mages in Thedas (or Fereldan) can be very powerful. However to be this, they must be very powerful and have studied for a very long time as this is not DnD magic; it is magic in a setting where magic is seen as being a very powerful thing - and not something every one can do. That's why The Mage's Circle takes children away, teaching them how to control their powers as a mage.

[Grommash94]

aries1001 wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

aries1001 wrote...



7) As for magic, I think it was Arthur C. Clarke who once said that any sort of technology (to people who are not as modern as some other people) will appear as magic. This could easily have been the case with Andraste, the Maker and the Tevinter Imperium.

Problem is there is magic in Thedas. Who knows just how powerful somes mages can be?

Yes, I know.

The point was, hower, to mention that maybe, just maybe another race (dwarf or elfs or an unknown lost race) did have a technology so advanced that it to the Tevinter Imperium or the people of Ferelden looked similar to magic.

Ah, alright. There is something like that though; the Qunari have gunpowder; the codex mentions their ships 'shooting thunder' or something along those lines.

I suppose it is possible that Andraste and her forces had something like that....but then, doesn't really seem very likely, when you take into account what the former commander of her armies says in the Gauntlet.

Modifié par Grommash94, 15 juillet 2010 - 08:28 .

[Mox Ruuga]

Wow... people seem quite hostile towards the chantry here...

I highly doubt we'll be able to lead any revolts against the chantry. It'd be like overthrowing the catholic church in some medieval european city. A ready made Exalted March, coming straight at you, should you make any serious progress.

I am an atheist myself IRL, but I do enjoy playing "realistically" religious characters, when the setting is right (and heck, I had a few religious Shepards as well)... Any widespread promotion of atheism/agnosticism in a medieval setting often seems a tad anachronistic to me.

[AlexXIV]

My theory of Andraste is more leaning towards Jeanne D'Arc. Let's forget about the virgin thing for a moment, but Jeanne said no mortal man could have her since she belonged to god. So maybe something along that was the case with Andraste as well, which could be one more reason why her husband betrayed her. As well as the reputation she earned for his victories. He was the leader of her armies after all. So he was not only put down as a husband, but also his accomplishments were projected on Andraste.

I don' think the spirits in Andraste's resting place only took information from the Warden's head. There is no hint to the warden knowing all this. Just think about dwarven or dalish origin. They wouldn't know Andraste's story until they get there. On the other hand that doesn't mean that what the spirits say is necessarily true. Even though I personally 'believe' they were. As for the Ashes ... it is not clear why they did possess healing powers. It might be that some sort of magic was applied on them or remained on them even after Andraste's death. Or much simpler, they believed they could heal Eamon, and healed him with their belief. I think that's how magic works anyway, you believe that you can do it and then you do it. Or it could be a bit of all of it. I never really defiled the ashes though (only to unlock the reaver, then reloaded my savegame) so I wouldn't know what exactly happens after that.

The Maker could be anything, truely a god, a spirit, a machine, an alien, or even non existant. Funny though that the Old Gods are named ... 'Old Gods'. Doesn't it imply that they have been worshipped before the Maker? So maybe the Maker arrived on Thedas when the Old Gods ruled already. Maybe He was the last of an ancient race which battled the Old Gods and finally defeated them, thus became the 'Maker'. It seems only the humans call him Maker and worship Him so it would maybe be possible he is the creator of the human race. Makes me think of the race of the 'Creators' in the game Spellforce for those who played it. Or maybe that were the elven gods?

I really think that the Tevinters created the Schism since they have always been mages and, well responsible for alot of bad things. That wouldn't put them in the position to make demands on who Andraste really was. Especially since Andraste was their enemies as long as she lived. So if anything I think Andraste might have been a sort of healer, maybe magical infused but probably not a mage like the Tevinters. Maybe a sort of shaman, or druid or alchemist, or simply proficient in the use of herbs.

Oh and btw does anyone know where in the timeline would have been Flemeth's first appearance? Not that in the end it turns out Flemeth was also Andraste

Modifié par AlexXIV, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:34 .

[AlexXIV]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Jimmy Fury wrote...

JoePinasi1989 wrote...
Yeah, but why would a demon of pride want to overthrow the Tevinter Imperium?! Wouldn't it want to RULE the Imperium instead?

Sorry for responding to something two pages old but...
You're not thinking BIG enough! The Tevinter Imperium at its height was the most powerful thing in the world. If you take over and rule it you're just a copy. You're nothing new you're just a replacement for those who already ruled it. Ruling the imperium has already been done. At best you're a very good poser...

Overthrowing the most powerful thing in the world, now that's something new. Then you're not just the most powerful thing in the world, you're better. You're stronger and mightier.
But... That's still not big enough. What's better than being stronger and mightier than the most powerful humans on earth? Being stronger and mightier than the maker himself. In that case it's certainly not enough to rule the people, you must be loved by the people. Loved so much that they worship you. And not just worship you, but use you to replace the maker himself... and what's the best way to get the love of the people? Overthrow the Imperium for them.
Now that's something to be proud of.

You make a good point.

I have to mention this though: it is indeed something to be proud of but it doesn't seem very demonic. Then again, there was Mouse...

I don't know, why would a powerful being want to be loved by a minor race? They worship you whether they love you or fear you, no difference. And if it wanted them to love it (or him or her) then it would only restrict itself. If it wanted to be loved it would have to follow rules, if it only wanted to be feared it could still do whatever it wants and still be feared and worshipped. Why would it restrict itself for no good reason?

[Grommash94]

A pride demon wouldn't have been so benevolent imo though. Nor would it have let itself be burnt at a stake ;P

[Elanareon]

Whoa, reading this timeline made me realize that our character was truly epic!

[Helena Tylena]

Grommash94 wrote...

A pride demon wouldn't have been so benevolent imo though. Nor would it have let itself be burnt at a stake ;P

I don't believe demons are evil. Only selfish. A demon could pretend it is benevolent for a plethora of reasons, the most likely of which would be 'to amuse itself'.

[Grommash94]

Helena Tylena wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

A pride demon wouldn't have been so benevolent imo though. Nor would it have let itself be burnt at a stake ;P

I don't believe demons are evil. Only selfish. A demon could pretend it is benevolent for a plethora of reasons, the most likely of which would be 'to amuse itself'.

Perhaps not all demons are evil. The ones that screwed around in the orphanage in the Alienage seemed so, though.

We do know that Andraste was burnt at a stake. We know the archon ended her life mercifully. The Pride demon would not have let those things happen.

[Helena Tylena]

Grommash94 wrote...

Helena Tylena wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

A pride demon wouldn't have been so benevolent imo though. Nor would it have let itself be burnt at a stake ;P

I don't believe demons are evil. Only selfish. A demon could pretend it is benevolent for a plethora of reasons, the most likely of which would be 'to amuse itself'.

Perhaps not all demons are evil. The ones that screwed around in the orphanage in the Alienage seemed so, though.

We do know that Andraste was burnt at a stake. We know the archon ended her life mercifully. The Pride demon would not have let those things happen.

Ok, maybe selfish and completely without scruples. >.<
And maybe the demon possessed someone else and used Andraste as a pawn?

[Grommash94]

Helena Tylena wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Helena Tylena wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

A pride demon wouldn't have been so benevolent imo though. Nor would it have let itself be burnt at a stake ;P

I don't believe demons are evil. Only selfish. A demon could pretend it is benevolent for a plethora of reasons, the most likely of which would be 'to amuse itself'.

Perhaps not all demons are evil. The ones that screwed around in the orphanage in the Alienage seemed so, though.

We do know that Andraste was burnt at a stake. We know the archon ended her life mercifully. The Pride demon would not have let those things happen.

Ok, maybe selfish and completely without scruples. >.<
And maybe the demon possessed someone else and used Andraste as a pawn?

Perhaps. If there was another mage with Andraste don't see how it wouldn't be possible....but..it would have to have been someone who would have been able to trick Andraste into thinking he was the Maker...

I STILL think the Maker is a powerful 'good', for lack of a better word, spirit. Like Justice x 100