243 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord_Saulot]

Kenrae wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...
I liked the A Song of Ice and Fire books, but that doesn't make this thread's request anywhere near appropriate for the game.

And what, pray tell, do you think the norms of Medieval society were, that were so different from our society in real life?  I will tell you - the norms of medieval society were determined by the Christian Church, and public violations had wide-ranging consequences.  For Catholics, I'm not sure about second cousins, but first cousins could only be allowed with a dispensation - anything closer was a violation of natural law.  For Orthodox, third cousin was the closest officially allowed.  In either case, a powerful figure violating these norms would be seen as offending God, and any major disaster in the realm would be blamed on the violation. 

Those dispensations were easy to get for the nobility, it seems.

It depends.  If you were on the Pope's good side, probably.  If the Pope or one of the Pope's friends didn't like you, less so.  But in any case, they wouldn't cover siblings, which are the subject of the thread.  Cousin marriage is a lot more common historically, while any sort of sibling marriage being legitimatized is limited to Egyptian royals, and perhaps other rare cases that I don't recall.

[DanteCousland]

King Leonidas married his niece. Yeah the hero everybody looks up to loved an underage girl in his family....

[17thknight]

Lord_Saulot wrote...

I liked the A Song of Ice and Fire books, but that doesn't make this thread's request anywhere near appropriate for the game.

And what, pray tell, do you think the norms of Medieval society were, that were so different from our society in real life?  I will tell you - the norms of medieval society were determined by the Christian Church, and public violations had wide-ranging consequences.  For Catholics, I'm not sure about second cousins, but first cousins could only be allowed with a dispensation - anything closer was a violation of natural law.  For Orthodox, third cousin was the closest officially allowed.  In either case, a powerful figure violating these norms would be seen as offending God, and any major disaster in the realm would be blamed on the violation. 

Not true at all. I'm working on my master's in history, and while I don't specialize in Medieval history, I've studied plenty of it. The social norms we have now did not exist in the Medieval world. Incest was VERY common among nobility, eve into the 19th century.

The Church did not weild the kind of power that you imagine.  While people had a natural aspersion to incest, and many tiny communities would have frowned on it, it certainly occurred from the nobles down to the commoners. In fact, it's been rather common throughout human history.

Actually, even now, the most common type of consentual sexual contact in any family (other than between the mother and father) is between brothers and sisters.

Does that mean it should be in a game, that it's good, or anything else? No. But you need to keep things in context, and in a medieval world, incest happened. Whether among Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, pick your society, this has always been something that was with humanity.

Again, I'm not arguing in favor of it being in the game, but it would not, at all, be out of place.

Modifié par 17thknight, 14 juillet 2010 - 09:18 .

[mordy_was_here]

This thread... it boggles my mind!

[DanteCousland]

No the concept does, it sickens you. People just think that wanting Incest in a game to make it fit the time period and to make it more deep automatically makes you some weird pervert...

I can't change your view if you think that but it is a shame you can't have a mature discussion without someone going

"EEEeew Incest gross".

[zahra]

Heavenblade wrote...

It's quite telling that most people aren't offended by impregnating an evil woman with a god-child that could very well doom all of humanity... but THIS is somehow "icky."

People are far more forgiving of mass evil and pure malevolence then they are even the slightest deviation from social norms in regards to interpersonal relationships.

Mass murder of innocents, birthing demon gods for the sake of convenience, abominations spewing things out in the darkness of the earth = Acceptable.

Partaking in a relationship with more closeness then some are comfortable with = BAD BAD BAD.

I agree. How we view the world/relationships = social construct. 

When you see someones head chopped off on television/Sudanese genocide/countries being bombed = Its ok.

Anything remotely sexually deviant = OMG CALL THE CAVALRY

[Lord_Saulot]

17thknight wrote...

Lord_Saulot wrote...

I liked the A Song of Ice and Fire books, but that doesn't make this thread's request anywhere near appropriate for the game.

And what, pray tell, do you think the norms of Medieval society were, that were so different from our society in real life?  I will tell you - the norms of medieval society were determined by the Christian Church, and public violations had wide-ranging consequences.  For Catholics, I'm not sure about second cousins, but first cousins could only be allowed with a dispensation - anything closer was a violation of natural law.  For Orthodox, third cousin was the closest officially allowed.  In either case, a powerful figure violating these norms would be seen as offending God, and any major disaster in the realm would be blamed on the violation. 

Not true at all. I'm working on my master's in history, and while I don't specialize in Medieval history, I've studied plenty of it. The social norms we have now did not exist in the Medieval world. Incest was VERY common among nobility, eve into the 19th century.

The Church did not weild the kind of power that you imagine.  While people had a natural aspersion to incest, and many tiny communities would have frowned on it, it certainly occurred from the nobles down to the commoners. In fact, it's been rather common throughout human history.

Actually, even now, the most common type of consentual sexual contact in any family (other than between the mother and father) is between brothers and sisters.

Does that mean it should be in a game, that it's good, or anything else? No. But you need to keep things in context, and in a medieval world, incest happened. Whether among Egyptians, Romans, Greeks, pick your society, this has always been something that was with humanity.

Again, I'm not arguing in favor of it being in the game, but it would not, at all, be out of place.

It may have always occurred, but I've studied my fair share of history too and never seen an indication that it was nearly as common as you describe.  But in any case, I don't mind disagreeing on the historical issue, since as you say, it is separate form the issue of whether it should appear in the game.  (And I'm sorry if I was a little condescending)

[Rovay]

If she's hot and shows some interest in Hawke, then perhaps I'd say yes... And that makes me a pervert already, doesn't it...?

[Loerwyn]

elearon1 wrote...

 I know the mere idea of this is going to cause some people to go into paroxysms, but in a Dark setting I think the possibility of the main character engaging in an incestuous relationship with his sister could make for some very interesting role play opportunities.  Not only do you have to deal with the taboo nature of the relationship, but the added dynamics of dealing with a sibling.  This is the sort of "pushing the envelope"  that I think Dragon Age as a setting is ripe for.  

As an aside, I have to wonder if Bioware is going to take advantage of the sibling issue and make Bethany a potential villain at some point.  Sure it has been done many times, but still makes for good story telling when done well.

If George R.R. Martin can get away with it in a book series which is not rated and that is being turned into a TV series, then I fail to see why BioWare cannot implement an incestuous romance in its game.

I would guess that the romance, if it did exist, would be written as consensual between two adults, so the problem is what exactly? We've had homosexual romances, threesomes and foursomes, interracial (Elf/Dwarf, Dwarf/Human etc) and so forth - I don't see why this shouldn't be allowed.

[YunoRay]

DanteCousland wrote...

King Leonidas married his niece. Yeah the hero everybody looks up to loved an underage girl in his family....

Yeah but that wasn't looked down upon in their society. It would be equivalent to a man marrying a consenting, of age woman in modern day America.

[Bryy_Miller]

zahra wrote...

Heavenblade wrote...

It's quite telling that most people aren't offended by impregnating an evil woman with a god-child that could very well doom all of humanity... but THIS is somehow "icky."

People are far more forgiving of mass evil and pure malevolence then they are even the slightest deviation from social norms in regards to interpersonal relationships.

Mass murder of innocents, birthing demon gods for the sake of convenience, abominations spewing things out in the darkness of the earth = Acceptable.

Partaking in a relationship with more closeness then some are comfortable with = BAD BAD BAD.

I agree. How we view the world/relationships = social construct. 

When you see someones head chopped off on television/Sudanese genocide/countries being bombed = Its ok.

Anything remotely sexually deviant = OMG CALL THE CAVALRY

Incest causes mutations in genes.

[brain_damage]

So...I heard you like Imoen...

[zahra]

DanteCousland wrote...

King Leonidas married his niece. Yeah the hero everybody looks up to loved an underage girl in his family....

He also probably had little boy lovers. 

[dewayne31]

David Gaider wrote...

This is not going to happen, and the fact that it's even being requested makes me wonder.

i said it would be interesting. but i'm sure if i would went down that road. But thank you Mr. Gaider, feel better now.

[Quinnzel]

FOX news would have enough material for a week with this thread. /facepalm

[Loerwyn]

Bryy_Miller wrote...
Incest causes mutations in genes.

Common misconception. Incest is slightly (I believe) more likely to result in "mutations" in offspring, but if no offspring result from it then there will be no "problem".

[mordy_was_here]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

zahra wrote...

Heavenblade wrote...

It's quite telling that most people aren't offended by impregnating an evil woman with a god-child that could very well doom all of humanity... but THIS is somehow "icky."

People are far more forgiving of mass evil and pure malevolence then they are even the slightest deviation from social norms in regards to interpersonal relationships.

Mass murder of innocents, birthing demon gods for the sake of convenience, abominations spewing things out in the darkness of the earth = Acceptable.

Partaking in a relationship with more closeness then some are comfortable with = BAD BAD BAD.

I agree. How we view the world/relationships = social construct. 

When you see someones head chopped off on television/Sudanese genocide/countries being bombed = Its ok.

Anything remotely sexually deviant = OMG CALL THE CAVALRY

Incest causes mutations in genes.

On a side note, this conversation is highly interesting. Continue.

Modifié par Mel213, 14 juillet 2010 - 09:25 .

[DanteCousland]

I don't think its because the writers are shy of it Meghren had an incestuous relationship. It's probably because they just don't want there hero to be soured that much by it.

[epoch_]

Why hasn't this been locked yet?

[Ulicus]

I'm certain these tastes will be catered to in fanfic.

[syllogi]

Could people just focus on hoping she lives past the tutorial stage, rather than planning your grimdark RP reasons for dating her? She's most likely a redshirt, but I'd be sooooooo happy if she was a valued party member who makes it through the whole game intact.

[Warheadz]

Rovay wrote...

If she's hot and shows some interest in Hawke, then perhaps I'd say yes... And that makes me a pervert already, doesn't it...?

Well, yeah, it does.

[Lord_Saulot]

TeenZombie wrote...

Could people just focus on hoping she lives past the tutorial stage, rather than planning your grimdark RP reasons for dating her? She's most likely a redshirt, but I'd be sooooooo happy if she was a valued party member who makes it through the whole game intact.

Agreed.

[zahra]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

zahra wrote...

Heavenblade wrote...

It's quite telling that most people aren't offended by impregnating an evil woman with a god-child that could very well doom all of humanity... but THIS is somehow "icky."

People are far more forgiving of mass evil and pure malevolence then they are even the slightest deviation from social norms in regards to interpersonal relationships.

Mass murder of innocents, birthing demon gods for the sake of convenience, abominations spewing things out in the darkness of the earth = Acceptable.

Partaking in a relationship with more closeness then some are comfortable with = BAD BAD BAD.

I agree. How we view the world/relationships = social construct. 

When you see someones head chopped off on television/Sudanese genocide/countries being bombed = Its ok.

Anything remotely sexually deviant = OMG CALL THE CAVALRY

Incest causes mutations in genes.

And mutations are more horrifying than having someones head blown off? The possibility of buckteeth and dyslexia is more scary than the casual acceptance of mass murder?

I don't like the idea of incest in DA:O. But a valid point is a valid point, and that is why I was agreeing with the poster above me.

[PARAGON87]

I really think the devs are looking at this thread and just facepalming themselves.