468 réponses à ce sujet

[V-time]

The main problem i have with the conversation wheel that it usually feels downgraded (e.g. having simple Black and White answers instead of complex one, shoehorning being sarcastic or a ****** with being evil (No real Jerk with a heart of Gold option) and most mportently it doesn´t lend itself towards translation :

Apart from the sorry state some translation are in (not just Bioware games in fact they are usually fine expect at a point or two) paraphrased sentences don´t lend themself to being translated all that well. It could be because the developer used a proverb that doesn´t exist in other languages or as simply as using words that are far longer in other languages so they have to look for replacement words in order to fit it into the interface.

Also i always get the feeling that some translators never played a game in their life not to mention that particuliar game they are translating or read any material concerning the game in order to do a decent job. Thankfully most games have more language tracks these days (apart from the X-Box games : tough luck german Mass Effect <_<) but still some might want to play in their mother language simply because they don´t speak the original language well or because they simply like their language more etc. but if things are wrongly translated you have to scratch your head especially if it gives such a wrong impression that you have to reload because your character did something incredibly stupid that you thought wasn´t indicated by the Icon/paraphrased sentence.

My main wtf moment when playing the original Mass Effect was when i was told that more rachni were in that mine and i choose the answer that it seemed that i had to kill more Reachni (paraphrased from the german translation of course) awaiting some snarky remark and then go on my merry way. Instead i was treated to some psychotic rant that made me seriously question how the paraphrased sentence could amount to that. Naturally i know stay away from that conversation choice but still it´s annoying for a first time player.

Modifié par V-time, 17 juillet 2010 - 09:50 .

[CybAnt1]

You don't need one. If the game is going to use a series of possible expressions, they can just be defined in the manual. This symbol means sarcastic, this symbol means flirty, etc. You can keep the manual open as a legend.

Hmmm. Now that's fascinating. Wouldn't it be just easier to give you the text cue? 

I mean, at what point is it just going to become obvious the point I've been making "more cinematic = less literary"; = "less reading". Now it's fine. I know why some people would rather read less, for some the idea of doing a lot of reading in a video game bothers them. 

It's the real philosophical divide between the old school and new school, no matter how you want to slice it. 

By the way, it would not bother me in the least to read the line, then hear Hawke say it. I kind of view it as an actor prepping from his/her script. (Obviously, then, subtitles would no longer be needed.) VO doesn't mean you HAVE to have a wheel, and theoretically, you don't even HAVE to have paraphrases. And hey - here's an idea - if you don't want to hear what you just read, hit the ESC key and fast forward ... 

But - with the impatient audience they're catering to, I can see why. The ones craving the "finished the game in x hours" achievement crowd. 

[Narreneth]

CybAnt1 wrote...

You don't need one. If the game is going to use a series of possible expressions, they can just be defined in the manual. This symbol means sarcastic, this symbol means flirty, etc. You can keep the manual open as a legend.

Hmmm. Now that's fascinating. Wouldn't it be just easier to give you the text cue?

Probably, but that's not the direction they went.  So what?

[SpiderFan1217]

The Op realizes that nothing is perfect, right?

[Arttis]

SpiderFan1217 wrote...

The Op realizes that nothing is perfect, right?

no If he can see a flaw then it is not good enough and if he can not then it is perfect.

[Sidney]

V-time wrote...

The main problem i have with the conversation wheel that it usually feels downgraded (e.g. having simple Black and White answers instead of complex one, shoehorning being sarcastic or a ****** with being evil (No real Jerk with a heart of Gold option) and most mportently it doesn´t lend itself towards translation : .

There's nothing "less complex" about the answers in terms of good and evil. On the menu you get long bits of text that say "Yes,  blah blah blah blah" and "No, blah blah blah blah". The "blah blah blah blah" parts don't change the answer or the reaction of the NPC which respond to "Yes" and "No". The wheeel because it is backed by dialog will actually almost always have MORE words associated with each selection because no one puts paragraphs next to the menu options.

You can start the "I want to know what he's gonna say" bit but since you likely didn't want to say exactly the "blah blah blah blah" part of the answer anyways what matters is getting the yes or no part in.

[Vicious]

The Op realizes that nothing is perfect, right?

Yeah because it's not Dragon Age Origins version 2.0.





This isn't Mass Effect. There's no good/evil answer. There's polite, sarcastic, violent, etc. Because you pick one choice doesn't make you good or evil. Pick every sarcastic response in the game and make all the good choices and you'll be a very funny and sarcastic Hawke. Be rude and violent to everyone and make all the good choices and people will see you as brusque and a dick, but a hero regardless.





Personally I think it's awesome. A big step above Mass Effect's system for sure.

[AlanC9]

CybAnt1 wrote...
I mean, at what point is it just going to become obvious the point I've been making "more cinematic = less literary"; = "less reading". Now it's fine. I know why some people would rather read less, for some the idea of doing a lot of reading in a video game bothers them. 

It's the real philosophical divide between the old school and new school, no matter how you want to slice it. 

Is it really correct to think of them as an old school and a new school, though? I get the feeling that Bio's always wanted to be cinematic. They would have done cutscenes and VO in BG1 if the technology and the budget had been there.

[Lord_Saulot]

Vicious wrote...

The Op realizes that nothing is perfect, right?

Yeah because it's not Dragon Age Origins version 2.0.


This isn't Mass Effect. There's no good/evil answer. There's polite, sarcastic, violent, etc. Because you pick one choice doesn't make you good or evil. Pick every sarcastic response in the game and make all the good choices and you'll be a very funny and sarcastic Hawke. Be rude and violent to everyone and make all the good choices and people will see you as brusque and a dick, but a hero regardless.


Personally I think it's awesome. A big step above Mass Effect's system for sure.

I think this is a good point!  Dragon Age's handling of morality and Mass Effect's are different and will continue to be distinct, and that is not dependant on the dialogue wheel.

[Sidney]

AlanC9 wrote...

Is it really correct to think of them as an old school and a new school, though? I get the feeling that Bio's always wanted to be cinematic. They would have done cutscenes and VO in BG1 if the technology and the budget had been there.

Bioware has always, since BG1, tossed you into "their" story. No matter how much you think BG2 is about you it is their story, we all had the same basic experience in it because we were playing in Bioware plot line.

Bethesda are the sandbox guys that let you live more or less w/o rules. In Morrowwind, FO3 and Oblivion you are playing in their world far, far, far less than you are playing in their plot.

Bioware gives you a river and you can paddle left or right around the
rocks but you are still going to go down the river. Bethesda gives you a lake and you can just go anywhere.

[In Exile]

[quote]CybAnt1 wrote...

Hmmm. Now that's fascinating. Wouldn't it be just easier to give you the text cue? [/quote]

Not if there isn't room on the UI. Now, I think they should have done this in DA:O. I actually argued for it but it wasn't a popular opinion.

That being said, I was only answering your question about implement for a very specific kind of UI.

[quote]I mean, at what point is it just going to become obvious the point I've been making "more cinematic = less literary"; = "less reading". Now it's fine. I know why some people would rather read less, for some the idea of doing a lot of reading in a video game bothers them. [/quote]

You can't just make this generalization. I can agree that with wanting a game to be less cinematic without agreeing that it should be "less literary" (what does that even mean?) or that I somehow dislike reading.

Put another way: you can believe that VO and cinematic storytelling make a game better without believing that reading make it worse. So I could, for example, argue for a codex 4x larger (with much more reading) and yet argue for no silent PC and not contradict myself.

[quote]It's the real philosophical divide between the old school and new school, no matter how you want to slice it. [/quote]

There's certainly a philosophical divide, but what does it mean to be old school versus new school? How early do you have to come to video-games to be "old" school? 1999? 1995? 1990? And which video-games?

[quote]By the way, it would not bother me in the least to read the line, then hear Hawke say it. I kind of view it as an actor prepping from his/her script. (Obviously, then, subtitles would no longer be needed.) VO doesn't mean you HAVE to have a wheel, and theoretically, you don't even HAVE to have paraphrases. And hey - here's an idea - if you don't want to hear what you just read, hit the ESC key and fast forward ... [/quote]

I don't care specifically, but I think the small wheel UI and the camera focus on the player is superior as an interface to the behind the character view where you can't see your character and the large block of text for DA:O. 

[qutoe]But - with the impatient audience they're catering to, I can see why. The ones craving the "finished the game in x hours" achievement crowd. [/quote]

That's offensive. Very offensive.

[/quote]

[Tirigon]

AbounI wrote...

Why they choose a wheel of dialogue with paraphrases: click here

This is the reason they use it, and it is also the reason why a voiced main char sucks badly.
Sometimes I miss Morrowind with no voiceacting AT ALL!!!!!!.

[In Exile]

V-time wrote...

The main problem i have with the conversation wheel that it usually feels downgraded (e.g. having simple Black and White answers instead of complex one, shoehorning being sarcastic or a ****** with being evil (No real Jerk with a heart of Gold option) and most mportently it doesn´t lend itself towards translation :

But DA:O does not give you this option either. And insofar as ME/ME2 is concerned, you do have such an option. Renegade (bottom right) options are usually jerk options. But you have the option to sacrifice or otherwise save people. So there you go - jerk with a heart of gold.

And DA:O does not give you complex answers at all unless they are scripted. You can't tell Morrigan you are helping peasants because it improves your reputation as a human noble and paves way for your path to power whenever she disapproves, for example.

So I'm not sure I buy that ME2 is this restrictive with variance in choice. You don't have to be consistently paragon or renegade (even in ME2 with its broken persuade system) unless you're meta-gaming that way.

Apart from the sorry state some translation are in (not just Bioware games in fact they are usually fine expect at a point or two) paraphrased sentences don´t lend themself to being translated all that well. It could be because the developer used a proverb that doesn´t exist in other languages or as simply as using words that are far longer in other languages so they have to look for replacement words in order to fit it into the interface.

I never considered that. But could that not be an issue of failing to convey the intent right? I honestly never considered it from a multiple language standpoint.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...
There's certainly a philosophical divide, but what does it mean to be old school versus new school? How early do you have to come to video-games to be "old" school? 1999? 1995? 1990? And which video-games?

I'm gonna go cynical here and say that you stop the clock whenever your personal favorite game was made. Everything after that is newfangled crap that only appeals to the console kiddies, or whoever the enemies du jour are.

[Sidney]

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm gonna go cynical here and say that you stop the clock whenever your personal favorite game was made. Everything after that is newfangled crap that only appeals to the console kiddies, or whoever the enemies du jour are.

...or you get the "that band used to be good" effect where as soon as anyone other than 8 shoegazing losers know who a band is they're no longer cool.

The sin of Mass Effect 2 is that they tried to market it to *gasp* non-role players and for all the "leet" nonsense from FPS'ers there's no one more stuck on their sense of superiority because they play a game than RPG'ers.

[tmp7704]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Hmmm. Now that's fascinating. Wouldn't it be just easier to give you the text cue? 

Possibly, but easier isn't always the good option. For example, going by this logic wouldn't it be just easier not to have all those road signs one has to memorize, but instead write "text cue" equivalents? There's advantages to icons which make them convenient for some tasks.

[V-time]

In Exile wrote...

V-time wrote...

The main problem i have with the conversation wheel that it usually feels downgraded (e.g. having simple Black and White answers instead of complex one, shoehorning being sarcastic or a ****** with being evil (No real Jerk with a heart of Gold option) and most mportently it doesn´t lend itself towards translation :

But DA:O does not give you this option either. And insofar as ME/ME2 is concerned, you do have such an option. Renegade (bottom right) options are usually jerk options. But you have the option to sacrifice or otherwise save people. So there you go - jerk with a heart of gold.

And DA:O does not give you complex answers at all unless they are scripted. You can't tell Morrigan you are helping peasants because it improves your reputation as a human noble and paves way for your path to power whenever she disapproves, for example.

So I'm not sure I buy that ME2 is this restrictive with variance in choice. You don't have to be consistently paragon or renegade (even in ME2 with its broken persuade system) unless you're meta-gaming that way.

Apart from the sorry state some translation are in (not just Bioware games in fact they are usually fine expect at a point or two) paraphrased sentences don´t lend themself to being translated all that well. It could be because the developer used a proverb that doesn´t exist in other languages or as simply as using words that are far longer in other languages so they have to look for replacement words in order to fit it into the interface.

I never considered that. But could that not be an issue of failing to convey the intent right? I honestly never considered it from a multiple language standpoint.

I usually have no problem with a wheel as long as what you are about to say is clearly presented and plain to see for the player. This can be hard for developers who due to being developers have connections planned and see the story in a bigger light and thus might simply screw up certain facts and tells that make the player go huh? but otherwise fine. What i would like to avoid is shoehorning every sarcastic or smarky comment into being "evil" but as long as i´m not painted as the bane of all things living just because i snark frequently then i´m fine on that as well.

And while your comment is true that you can play ME2 as such a character it is increasingly frustrating that they decided to tie the Paragon/renegade score into persuasion to the flawed concept that made it into the game. After all cunning and charming villains e.g. full renegade in ME standards are usually the most popular in fiction rather than homicidal nutjobs. Anyway i´m fine as long as they make a good job (and try to add a more or less neutral path that in its own way is rewarding rather than being left entirely open and just the result of having to balance one samaritian option with a sadistic one.

And yeah the translation issue is one of the main problems in gaming and due to the amount of text is at it´s worst in RPGs. And while streamlining the interface and trying to make things smoother is nice (as long as one doesn´t go to far ; Remember we are still RPG gamer so don´t mak ethe sequel anything but an RPG) it naturally makes things harder for the ones working on the translations (and if that´s not the case than those lazy bums should shape up since some faults are so ludacrious that you want to cring for example people translating Chainmail as Kettenpost instead of Kettenhemd in german where "Post" is the german equivalent of mail as in a bunch of letters. Bonus points to those who knew which game i´m talking about.)

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Put another way: you can believe that VO and cinematic storytelling make a game better without believing that reading make it worse. So I could, for example, argue for a codex 4x larger (with much more reading) and yet argue for no silent PC and not contradict myself.

I think you're missing the point.  The point is not to have lots of text for the sake of text.  Rather, the difference we are talking about is how you process and interact with the plot.  A movie is a more passive story experience than a book, especially a book that you are helping to write.  DA2 is moving us towards a more passive experience of the story.  RPG for me is a mixture of reading and writing, the one passive, the other active.  I like that back and forth.  Since the devs are saying that games are going the way of movies and that this is a good thing, we can expect more and more of this transition to the passive.

I like movies.  Movies are grand.  But a movie has to be seamless, and if it's any longer than 2 hours it had better be pretty damn good.  I did not spend hours on DAO because it ran like a movie.  What I would like to know is why anyone would want to sit through hours and hours of a choppy, badly animated movie with annoying interruptions.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 juillet 2010 - 04:15 .

[Heimdall]

Sidney wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm gonna go cynical here and say that you stop the clock whenever your personal favorite game was made. Everything after that is newfangled crap that only appeals to the console kiddies, or whoever the enemies du jour are.

...or you get the "that band used to be good" effect where as soon as anyone other than 8 shoegazing losers know who a band is they're no longer cool.

The sin of Mass Effect 2 is that they tried to market it to *gasp* non-role players and for all the "leet" nonsense from FPS'ers there's no one more stuck on their sense of superiority because they play a game than RPG'ers.

I've encountered more RPG players with superiority complexes than FPS players...

[AlanC9]

V-time wrote...
And while your comment is true that you can play ME2 as such a character it is increasingly frustrating that they decided to tie the Paragon/renegade score into persuasion to the flawed concept that made it into the game. After all cunning and charming villains e.g. full renegade in ME standards are usually the most popular in fiction rather than homicidal nutjobs.

Yeah, the wheel gets blamed for problems that come from the awful ME2 implementation of Persuasion. Which is kind of funny because ME1 had the wheel but didn't have those problems.

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...
I think you're missing the point.  The point is not to have lots of text for the sake of text.  Rather, the difference we are talking about is how you process and interact with the plot.  A movie is a more passive story experience than a book, especially a book that you are helping to write.  DA2 is moving us towards a more passive experience of the story.  RPG for me is a mixture of reading and writing, the one passive, the other active.  I like that back and forth.  Since the devs are saying that games are going the way of movies and that this is a good thing, we can expect more and more of this transition to the passive.

I won't speak for In Exile, but I deny the premise. I didn't find ME to be any more passive than DA.

[Addai]

AlanC9 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I think you're missing the point.  The point is not to have lots of text for the sake of text.  Rather, the difference we are talking about is how you process and interact with the plot.  A movie is a more passive story experience than a book, especially a book that you are helping to write.  DA2 is moving us towards a more passive experience of the story.  RPG for me is a mixture of reading and writing, the one passive, the other active.  I like that back and forth.  Since the devs are saying that games are going the way of movies and that this is a good thing, we can expect more and more of this transition to the passive.

I won't speak for In Exile, but I deny the premise. I didn't find ME to be any more passive than DA.

The premise is pretty clear in the devs' promotion of this mode versus Origins' system.  They tout the new system as you being able to sit back and process the interaction, versus the "choppy" experience of having to read and analyze text in between listening to NPC responses.

But I'll let you tell me what "cinematic" means and what it's being contrasted to.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 juillet 2010 - 04:29 .

[ashez2ashes]

I wish there was an option where you could see what the choice actually says. Perhaps, in the pc version,when you rest your icon on the choice that above the choice a little text box could appear with the full text (like a highlighted internet link)? The option would not be turned on by default, that way only people who didn't mind hearing it twice could enable it.



Of course, this leaves console people in the dust... and I played DAO on ps3. *sigh* I guess I'd be okay with not importing my choices if I could do this.

[saruman85]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sidney wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm gonna go cynical here and say that you stop the clock whenever your personal favorite game was made. Everything after that is newfangled crap that only appeals to the console kiddies, or whoever the enemies du jour are.

...or you get the "that band used to be good" effect where as soon as anyone other than 8 shoegazing losers know who a band is they're no longer cool.

The sin of Mass Effect 2 is that they tried to market it to *gasp* non-role players and for all the "leet" nonsense from FPS'ers there's no one more stuck on their sense of superiority because they play a game than RPG'ers.

I've encountered more RPG players with superiority complexes than FPS players...

Yes, that's actually what he said too. Read his last sentence slowly.

Modifié par saruman85, 17 juillet 2010 - 04:49 .