468 réponses à ce sujet

[saruman85]

Slightly off-topic, but I think Penny Arcade made the same point with their conversation wheel t-shirt:
http://ep.yimg.com/c...6_2112_18844298

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
I think you're missing the point.  The point is not to have lots of text for the sake of text.  Rather, the difference we are talking about is how you process and interact with the plot.

That's a different point. The initial point was that people hate reading. It is certainly not true that if you appreciate the cinematic, you hate reading.

A movie is a more passive story experience than a book, especially a book that you are helping to write.  DA2 is moving us towards a more passive experience of the story.

I absolutely deny this is true.

To the first conjuct: a movie is no less passive than a book. In a book, you are sitting and reading. You are absorbing information from a propositional medium in which you have absolutely no input, where the characters are defined and the ending is fixed. Just line in a movie. Unless you want to claim that using your imagination somehow makes it active, in which case we'll just have to agree to disagree, because that's something else I deny.

To the second conjuct: you write the story in ME just as much as you do so in DA. Both games are overflowing with choices. Now, what I'm sure you want to argue is that you do not write the PC as freely in DA as you do in ME. You know I disagree with this, but let's shelf it for a moment because this is actually a meaningful argument you can make.

Insofar as you want to argue one medium is static and the other is dynamic, though, you're wrong.

RPG for me is a mixture of reading and writing, the one passive, the other active.  I like that back and forth.  Since the devs are saying that games are going the way of movies and that this is a good thing, we can expect more and more of this transition to the passive.

But you are not right about this in the least. Seriously. How is a the Fellowship of the Ring movie more passive than the tome that is the Fellowship of the Ring book?

Video-games are choose your own adventure stories. They are dynamic in virtue of having story choices. Now, you think you can influence the PC to a great extent. That's a fair claim; but it is not sufficient to prove that one medium is more passive than the other. If anything, this is irrelevant to that claim.

I like movies.  Movies are grand.  But a movie has to be seamless, and if it's any longer than 2 hours it had better be pretty damn good.  I did not spend hours on DAO because it ran like a movie.  What I would like to know is why anyone would want to sit through hours and hours of a choppy, badly animated movie with annoying interruptions.

I see your insult and raise you: why would anyone want to spent time thinking up the personality of a lawn ornament?

See? I can be insulting too. Let's play nice again.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...

The premise is pretty clear in the devs' promotion of this mode versus Origins' system.  They tout the new system as you being able to sit back and process the interaction, versus the "choppy" experience of having to read and analyze text in between listening to NPC responses.

But I'll let you tell me what "cinematic" means and what it's being contrasted to.

When Bioware says that VO is superior to non-VO, do you agree with them? I would think not. It is the same when they tell us how passive we ought to think our games are. 

[Heimdall]

saruman85 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sidney wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm gonna go cynical here and say that you stop the clock whenever your personal favorite game was made. Everything after that is newfangled crap that only appeals to the console kiddies, or whoever the enemies du jour are.

...or you get the "that band used to be good" effect where as soon as anyone other than 8 shoegazing losers know who a band is they're no longer cool.

The sin of Mass Effect 2 is that they tried to market it to *gasp* non-role players and for all the "leet" nonsense from FPS'ers there's no one more stuck on their sense of superiority because they play a game than RPG'ers.

I've encountered more RPG players with superiority complexes than FPS players...

Yes, that's actually what he said too. Read his last sentence slowly.

...Oh, I see.  My mistake then.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The premise is pretty clear in the devs' promotion of this mode versus Origins' system.  They tout the new system as you being able to sit back and process the interaction, versus the "choppy" experience of having to read and analyze text in between listening to NPC responses.

But I'll let you tell me what "cinematic" means and what it's being contrasted to.

When Bioware says that VO is superior to non-VO, do you agree with them? I would think not. It is the same when they tell us how passive we ought to think our games are. 

Actually they told us that non-VO is superior for those who value a certain type of player experience.  And I heartily agree with them.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

I like movies.  Movies are grand.  But a movie has to be seamless, and if it's any longer than 2 hours it had better be pretty damn good.  I did not spend hours on DAO because it ran like a movie.  What I would like to know is why anyone would want to sit through hours and hours of a choppy, badly animated movie with annoying interruptions.

I see your insult and raise you: why would anyone want to spent time thinking up the personality of a lawn ornament?

See? I can be insulting too. Let's play nice again.

You certainly take this discussion very personally.  I wonder why.  Your constant references to lawn ornaments are meaningless to anyone but you, I think.

Anyway, I think it is obvious that watching a movie is more passive than reading a book, so I don't feel like defending something that it seems you're just arguing for the sake of argument.  If I'm wasted from a hard day, I don't have the energy to read a book, but I can sit back and watch a movie.  Granted that there are movies you have to follow more actively than others, but since "action action action" is also being touted about this game, it seems that games are moving more towards the sit-back-and-say-ooh kind of experience.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...

Actually they told us that non-VO is superior for those who value a certain type of player experience.  And I heartily agree with them.

Missing the forest for the trees, eh? Okay, I'll be more specific. Bioware is not the ultimate authority on the taste of their own players. They design a game to achieve some purpose. The consumer base then buys the game. It is possible that they want to design a game that they believe has a great deal of choice that consumers find linear, or a game that has a restricted PC that consumers find customizable. The mere fact that Bioware believes in a particular dichotomy does not make that dichotomy true.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Actually they told us that non-VO is superior for those who value a certain type of player experience.  And I heartily agree with them.

Missing the forest for the trees, eh? Okay, I'll be more specific. Bioware is not the ultimate authority on the taste of their own players. They design a game to achieve some purpose. The consumer base then buys the game. It is possible that they want to design a game that they believe has a great deal of choice that consumers find linear, or a game that has a restricted PC that consumers find customizable. The mere fact that Bioware believes in a particular dichotomy does not make that dichotomy true.

Since I happen to agree that there is a difference between a game like Mass Effect where the experience is meant to be more like a movie, versus Dragon Age where reading and analyzing is more important in how you interact with the story, I agree with them.  I simply disagree with the decision to punt the latter in favor of the former.  But hey, it's their game and it's my cash and we'll see if the twain shall meet.

In this case, Bioware and I agree that these are two separate player experiences.  You want to say that they are really the same.  You really, really, really want to say that.  I get it.  I disagree.  Others disagree.  Can you get that?

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...

You certainly take this discussion very personally.  I wonder why.  Your constant references to lawn ornaments are meaningless to anyone but you, I think.

I am not taking it personal; I am simply pointing out when you are being insulting for no other purpose than to be insulting.

You think DA2 will be a choppy, animated movie. I happen to think how you role-play is like pretending a garden gnome is alive. If you're not being malicious, then I am certainly not.

Anyway, I think it is obvious that watching a movie is more passive than reading a book, so I don't feel like defending something that it seems you're just arguing for the sake of argument.

Okay. I think it is obvious that reading a book is as passive as watching a movie. Well, that was informative for the both of us.

If I'm wasted from a hard day, I don't have the energy to read a book, but I can sit back and watch a movie.  Granted that there are movies you have to follow more actively than others, but since "action action action" is also being touted about this game, it seems that games are moving more towards the sit-back-and-say-ooh kind of experience.

Wheras when I'm tired and want to relax I read, because I can't comprehend how it requires energy to read. But this is obviously a lie, and deep down I agree with you and am just being an internet troll. It's good you point this out for everyone.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
In this case, Bioware and I agree that these are two separate player experiences.  You want to say that they are really the same.  You really, really, really want to say that.  I get it.  I disagree.  Others disagree.  Can you get that?

Great. Others disagree with this. Really, really disagree with this. We do not appreciate being told that we are playing the game wrong. Can you get that?

Cause once you do, you and I never need to post on this topic again, and we can just let people who that VO is out and out sperior to non-VO for the purpose of "owning" your character post that and say it is a good think DA2 is being made with the changes being included.

[saruman85]

Lord Aesir wrote...

saruman85 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Sidney wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I'm gonna go cynical here and say that you stop the clock whenever your personal favorite game was made. Everything after that is newfangled crap that only appeals to the console kiddies, or whoever the enemies du jour are.

...or you get the "that band used to be good" effect where as soon as anyone other than 8 shoegazing losers know who a band is they're no longer cool.

The sin of Mass Effect 2 is that they tried to market it to *gasp* non-role players and for all the "leet" nonsense from FPS'ers there's no one more stuck on their sense of superiority because they play a game than RPG'ers.

I've encountered more RPG players with superiority complexes than FPS players...

Yes, that's actually what he said too. Read his last sentence slowly.

...Oh, I see.  My mistake then.

Nah, I had to read that sentence twice too. Agree with him, too - and I'm an RPG'er.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

You certainly take this discussion very personally.  I wonder why.  Your constant references to lawn ornaments are meaningless to anyone but you, I think.

I am not taking it personal; I am simply pointing out when you are being insulting for no other purpose than to be insulting.

You think DA2 will be a choppy, animated movie. I happen to think how you role-play is like pretending a garden gnome is alive. If you're not being malicious, then I am certainly not.

We're being told that games are becoming more cinematic.  So they're becoming more like movies.  I am describing what I like about movies and why a game is different than a movie in my mind, and why games don't work as a form of movie.  For some reason you're attributing personal insult to a very mundane discussion of different types of media.

I fault your constant references to lawn ornaments as not communicating anything, not for being insulting.  Obviously that image means something to you, but communicates nothing to me.  So I really could care less if you call my PCs lawn ornaments.  If you compared them to statues of Venus, I might even take it for a compliment.  

If I'm wasted from a hard day, I don't have the energy to read a book, but I can sit back and watch a movie.  Granted that there are movies you have to follow more actively than others, but since "action action action" is also being touted about this game, it seems that games are moving more towards the sit-back-and-say-ooh kind of experience.

Wheras when I'm tired and want to relax I read, because I can't comprehend how it requires energy to read. But this is obviously a lie, and deep down I agree with you and am just being an internet troll. It's good you point this out for everyone.

You don't think it requires energy to read?  More energy than sitting back and watching TV or a movie?  That is interesting, but I would wager it is not the experience of most people.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 juillet 2010 - 05:35 .

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
In this case, Bioware and I agree that these are two separate player experiences.  You want to say that they are really the same.  You really, really, really want to say that.  I get it.  I disagree.  Others disagree.  Can you get that?

Great. Others disagree with this. Really, really disagree with this. We do not appreciate being told that we are playing the game wrong. Can you get that?

Why do you assume I think you're playing the game wrong?  I'm glad you have that experience in Mass Effect.  I didn't.  I wish we could continue to enjoy our respective approaches to gaming, rather than have Dragon Age folded into Mass Effect.  Sucks to be me.

Cause once you do, you and I never need to post on this topic again, and we can just let people who that VO is out and out sperior to non-VO for the purpose of "owning" your character post that and say it is a good think DA2 is being made with the changes being included.

I'm not following you.  I guess that you're telling me to shut up and go away.

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...

The premise is pretty clear in the devs' promotion of this mode versus Origins' system.  They tout the new system as you being able to sit back and process the interaction, versus the "choppy" experience of having to read and analyze text in between listening to NPC responses.

Choppy doesn't mean passive. I'm just as active whether I'm selecting conversation options from the wheel or selecting full blocks of text. Either way I'm playing a metagame with the writer, as I choose which one of these options best fits my intent for the character's next action. The only difference is that paraphrases + intent icon gets me to the result I want faster. Sure, you can make me work more to get there, but why is that better?

I guess we could discuss "cinematic" if you like, but I'm not quite sure where you're going with that.

[Addai]

AlanC9 wrote...

I guess we could discuss "cinematic" if you like, but I'm not quite sure where you're going with that.

It's the new buzzword for what games are becoming, apparently.  So tell me what it means to you to have a game that is more vs. less cinematic.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
We're being told that games are becoming more cinematic.  So they're becoming more like movies.  I am describing what I like about movies and why a game is different than a movie in my mind, and why games don't work as a form of movie.  For some reason you're attributing personal insult to a very mundane discussion of different types of media.

If we're doing a he said/she said, all that I said that started this conversation was that being in favour of a cinematic experience says nothing about an attitude toward reading. And then you wanted to prove I was wrong. You didn't describe what you like about movies and why a game is different; you just said a game that is trying to be cinematic is like an inferior version of a movie. Do you appreciat how, to someone who believes the oppposite, saying what they like is dramatically inferior is not exactly well received? Particular when it adds nothing to the conversation?

I appreciate that you disagree with the VO issue; I tried to be as charitable to your view that silent VO gives you more control over the PC. But simply put granting that this is true does not make on medium more active than the other.

I fault your constant references to lawn ornaments as not communicating anything, not for being insulting.  Obviously that image means something to you, but communicates nothing to me.  So I really could care less if you call my PCs lawn ornaments.  If you compared them to statues of Venus, I might even take it for a compliment.

The intent, as I explained in another thread, is to say that your character is never alive or part of the story; it is simply an object that people happen to speak to. Obviously, you disagree with this. But I disagree with the claim that a cinematic experience in a game is somehow inferior to a movie.

You don't think it requires energy to read?  More energy than sitting back and watching TV or a movie?  That is interesting, but I would wager it is not the experience of most people.

I don't think it requires more energy to read than to watch TV or a movie, no. Now, I was reading not for pleasure but to learn, then it most certainly requires more effort. But the part that requires effort is the intellectual effort I am expanding in taking notes, diagramming, etc. When I read, I'm simply absorbing the story. In the same way, when I watch TV, I'm absorbing the story.

Certainly watching TV can make more energy than reading a book, for example if I wanted to critically evaluate the movie versus enjoying the book. So I think your intent in what you are doing affects the energy it takes to do it.

[In Exile]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

Why do you assume I think you're playing the game wrong?  I'm glad you have that experience in Mass Effect.  I didn't.  I wish we could continue to enjoy our respective approaches to gaming, rather than have Dragon Age folded into Mass Effect.  Sucks to be me. [/quote]

Because you are telling me I do not role-play, or that how I play the game cannot provide as great a connection to the character. You often say, for example, there is nothing wrong with how I play, you just want that personal connection so it can be your character. But I play the way I do precisely because how you play provides me with no personal connection. So there is a very strong disconnect.

I think Mass Effect uses VO for the PC appropriately, but there are lots of things I hate about ME, (like the gameplay, the story arc in ME2, the setting) that I love about DA:O. So to simply say that I should just want more ME is really not being appreciative to my position at all.

[quote]
Cause once you do, you and I never need to post on this topic again, and we can just let people who that VO is out and out sperior to non-VO for the purpose of "owning" your character post that and say it is a good think DA2 is being made with the changes being included.

[/quote]
I'm not following you.  I guess that you're telling me to shut up and go away.

[/quote]

That's what I thought you were telling me, so I just replied in kind. I am trying to be as charitable as possible to your view. But I will defend mine. I had the distinct impression you were telling me to no longer do this.

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I guess we could discuss "cinematic" if you like, but I'm not quite sure where you're going with that.

It's the new buzzword for what games are becoming, apparently.  So tell me what it means to you to have a game that is more vs. less cinematic.

And I'd be interested in discussing marketing buzzwords.... why?

More seriously, If I'm using the word I'm just talking about having stuff like cutscenes, #D animations, voice acting, and so forth, that makes what's on the screen of the game similar to what's on the screen in a movie. Cinematic = like cinema.

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 juillet 2010 - 05:54 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...

It's the new buzzword for what games are becoming, apparently.  So tell me what it means to you to have a game that is more vs. less cinematic.

Personally, I look to it as follows:

The ultimate role-playing experience would be some kind of virtual reality simulator (say, a holodeck). That's obviously impossible.

What is important to me is that the player have the opportunity to be a dramatic lead in the story, and not be passive. Put another way, I do not as a matter of personal taste ever play followers. Games today do not provide, really, the option to be a side character per se but I would never play a game like this. It is either the centre of the game and story or no dice. But I believe strongly that non-VO does not allow for a player to be active in the story.

What do I mean? Take the human noble. When you meet Cailan, you tell him about your father. One of Cailin's lines is "Dead? What do you mean, dead? Duncan, what is the meaning of this?"

Right now, the writers background your character and foreground Ducan to give the explanation. But this drives me insane! It is my character that should be the foreground and not passive. But the character has to be passive for the sake of both role-playing and the scene. I say for the sake of role-playing because arguably there could be more than 1 way to describe the event, and the dialogue choice would have to be a block of text.

So to me, cinematic is about allowing the scene to flow dynamically between two characters with the PC having the option to drive a scene in a way that is antithetical to that scene in DA:O above.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

If we're doing a he said/she said, all that I said that started this conversation was that being in favour of a cinematic experience says nothing about an attitude toward reading. And then you wanted to prove I was wrong. You didn't describe what you like about movies and why a game is different; you just said a game that is trying to be cinematic is like an inferior version of a movie. Do you appreciat how, to someone who believes the oppposite, saying what they like is dramatically inferior is not exactly well received? Particular when it adds nothing to the conversation?

I did, actually, describe what I like about a movie and why I see movies as a very different type of media than a game.  A movie is seamless, short, absorbing, draws you in and tells you a story and then spits you back out.  The kind of game I like is a back and forth between writing and reading.  Dragon Age is the only video game I've tried which provides this kind of experience, the same sort of experience I have in text RPG.  Why someone would want a movie with constant interruptions and bad animation is baffling to me.  If being baffled by this constitutes insulting you, hey, sorry.

You don't think it requires energy to read?  More energy than sitting back and watching TV or a movie?  That is interesting, but I would wager it is not the experience of most people.

I don't think it requires more energy to read than to watch TV or a movie, no. Now, I was reading not for pleasure but to learn, then it most certainly requires more effort. But the part that requires effort is the intellectual effort I am expanding in taking notes, diagramming, etc. When I read, I'm simply absorbing the story. In the same way, when I watch TV, I'm absorbing the story.

Certainly watching TV can make more energy than reading a book, for example if I wanted to critically evaluate the movie versus enjoying the book. So I think your intent in what you are doing affects the energy it takes to do it.

I could point to a lot of scientific study that says that TV watching is not just subjectively different than reading, there are actual brainwave differences.  But I don't think it matters.  The point is that different people have different player experiences, something that Bioware recognizes but obviously has decided not to accommadate.  The fact that you and I have such different approaches to gaming ought to validate the fact that there are very different player experiences.  Whether one is inferior or superior, on that we can disagree.  I think there is a general trend towards dumbing down and mass marketization in media and I put these changes in that stream and count them as negatives.  I realize you don't.

Modifié par Addai67, 17 juillet 2010 - 06:00 .

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...
I could point to a lot of scientific study that says that TV watching is not just subjectively different than reading, there are actual brainwave differences.  But I don't think it matters.

What you really want is a study that shows there are differences between playing ME and playing DA, anyway.

The point is that different people have different player experiences, something that Bioware recognizes but obviously has decided not to accommadate.  The fact that you and I have such different approaches to gaming ought to validate the fact that there are very different player experiences.  Whether one is inferior or superior, on that we can disagree.  I think there is a general trend towards dumbing down and mass marketization in media and I put these changes in that stream and count them as negatives.  I realize you don't.

That's the thing. You actually don't respect In Exile's perspective on gaming, since you think the changes are dumbing the game down. Your real position is that In Exile prefers a dumbed down approach. Own it.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
I did, actually, describe what I like about a movie and why I see movies as a very different type of media than a game.  A movie is seamless, short, absorbing, draws you in and tells you a story and then spits you back out.  The kind of game I like is a back and forth between writing and reading.  Dragon Age is the only video game I've tried which provides this kind of experience, the same sort of experience I have in text RPG. 

Right, and I responded to all of that without any kind of snark. But then...

Why someone would want a movie with constant interruptions and bad animation is baffling to me.  If being baffled by this constitutes insulting you, hey, sorry.

And here we are. Back to the what you like is just an inferior version of a movie, and what up with you liking that? It is not the being baffled part that is being insult. It is the inferior to movie part.

Put another way: constant interruptions and bad aminations are both subjective value judgments that we should really avoid in a conversation. It's like my saying I can't comprehend why you want to pretend your chair is alive. Maybe I have a good point in there somewhere, but mostly I'm being demeaning about your playstyle.

I could point to a lot of scientific study that says that TV watching is not just subjectively different than reading, there are actual brainwave differences.  But I don't think it matters.

You're talking to someone who studies cognitive psychology. I'm intimately familiar with how TV differs from reading a book, and how both differ from posting and reading on the internet, which is a distinct experience because of how information is being packaged in a rapid fashion.

If we're going to say that reading and movies are distinct from each other on the basis of, say, neuroimaging then I can simply claim that video-games themselves are distinct from either and likely not meaningfully different and probably anchor it to mirror neuron functioning.

All of this is irrelevant, though. What makes processing passive versus active is not how you process information. If you actually wanted to take that standard, then watching TV is far more active than reading a book because when we watch TV we activate mirror neurons in a way that we do not when we read. Mirror neurons map behaviours others engage in to our body plan (so when I see you grasping for something, my brain fires a me grasping something pattern).

So by that standard, Shepard sucker puching the reporter is actually more active than the Warden's back being shown in coversation as you think about his motives because of the kind of processing that is going on.

The point is that different people have different player experiences, something that Bioware recognizes but obviously has decided not to accommadate.  The fact that you and I have such different approaches to gaming ought to validate the fact that there are very different player experiences.  Whether one is inferior or superior, on that we can disagree.  I think there is a general trend towards dumbing down and mass marketization in media and I put these changes in that stream and count them as negatives.  I realize you don't.

...Oy vey. You start off so well, and then something like the bolded portion comes up. You really cannot appreciate how saying things like this is rude? Seriously?

I'm not denying there are different playing experiences. I'm simply saying I'm happy when my experience is being accomodated, and our experences are mutually exclusive.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...
 But I believe strongly that non-VO does not allow for a player to be active in the story.

What do I mean? Take the human noble. When you meet Cailan, you tell him about your father. One of Cailin's lines is "Dead? What do you mean, dead? Duncan, what is the meaning of this?"

Right now, the writers background your character and foreground Ducan to give the explanation. But this drives me insane! It is my character that should be the foreground and not passive. But the character has to be passive for the sake of both role-playing and the scene. I say for the sake of role-playing because arguably there could be more than 1 way to describe the event, and the dialogue choice would have to be a block of text.

So to me, cinematic is about allowing the scene to flow dynamically between two characters with the PC having the option to drive a scene in a way that is antithetical to that scene in DA:O above.

What you're describing is a cutscene.  Another poster has, accurately IMO, said that being more cinematic means having more of things like cutscenes.  So what the devs are telling us is that they are going to give us more of what you say here drives you crazy.  And you're not only happy about this trend, you're passionately defending it??  *scratches head*

Modifié par Addai67, 17 juillet 2010 - 06:13 .

[AlanC9]

I just knew you were going to call him (her?) on the "dumbed down" line, In Exile. Maye you should just accept that he's doing his best to be polite about not respecting your playstyle, and move on?

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 juillet 2010 - 06:21 .