468 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

[quote]KalDurenik wrote...

Sight... It was just a idea and a example. The words in the wheel are meaning less. They could remove them and NO ONE would notice if they simply just added a blue and a red dot.

Text based all the way is best.[/quote

But DA:O often used this scheme. 1 was polite and skipped extra dialogue, 4 was usually the rudest option, etc. So we could say that we can just skip all that nasty reading in DA:O by just writing the desired effect instead of the line. After all, the PC says nothing.

[The Edge]

Could they possibly randomize where the responces are? It would be annoying not knowing where the responces are, but it keeps you thinking about what your character would say. On the other hand, it may limit what the conversation leads to if you don't know what ends or continues the conversation...

[ObserverStatus]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Diablo 3 has a conversation wheel as well.

Honestly Idk if you are just messing around about the dialogue because those are comedic. Or at least they seem to be

Look in my eye.

[okiness]

What I don't like is now it's intent, I would like to use my magical persuasion breath to save the day. Oh well, I'll wait and see how it goes.

[The Edge]

Holy crap that would be crazy! And overwhelming!

[Anathemic]

bobobo878 wrote...

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Diablo 3 has a conversation wheel as well.

No it doesn't stop spreading false information.
Diablo 3 does not have a dialogue wheel, it was a Blizzard's April fools joke

[AlanC9]

Sidney wrote...

 Either people never played ME or they are just terminally full of it when it comes to the game mechanics.

I gotta bet the second, based on some of the posts I've seen lately.

[ObserverStatus]

Anathemic wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but Diablo 3 has a conversation wheel as well.

No it doesn't stop spreading false information.
Diablo 3 does not have a dialogue wheel, it was a Blizzard's April fools joke

[Anathemic]

No because I don't support any type of dialogue wheel in either Blizzard or BioWare games >.>

[ObserverStatus]

I don't think that anyone who looked closely believed it. "That mushroom is as big as a Cadillac!"

[The Edge]

bobobo878 wrote...

I don't think that anyone who looked closely believed it. "That mushroom is as big as a Cadillac!"

I find myself saying that all too often.

Modifié par The Edge, 19 juillet 2010 - 07:17 .

[17thknight]

Sique Foque wrote...

Well despite all the unpleasant surprises with the dialogue wheel und not to undermine your argument, the outcome can still be funny as hell

Wow! Thank you! You pretty much proved my entire point with all my posts with just those two vids.

I still remember when shepard flat-out murdered that Asari and I had had NO IDEA he was going to do that when I picked the option. So I was left to reload a save from 2 hours prior to "fix " it.

[17thknight]

Victor Wachter wrote...

Part of the appeal of any dialog system is that you don't always know where a conversation choice will lead. So, while intent may be indicated in the dialog wheel, the consequences will unfold through story.

This post made me so angry I wanted to punch my screen.

No, that is not what is appealing about the dialogue system. I may not know what the OTHER character is going to do, but I absolutely want to know what MY character will do.

Where did you come up with the notion that we like having no clue what will happen when we make dialogue choices in games? We want to know what we will do and no amount of paraphrasing or "mood indicators" will ever fix that.

There needs to be an option by which I can push a button or keep an answer highlighted and see every action my character will take and every word my character will say. It may not matter in 75% of the conversations, but sometimes it matters a lot. I shouldn't have to agonize over a decision not because it's difficult but because I literally have no idea what my own actions will be when I pick it. I don't want to be forced to look online for how my OWN character will react to my decisions.

There's nothing worse than when I picked an option that had my Shepard flat-out murdering someone that I didn't want him to kill. So now I get to reload a save from however-long-ago to replay something because a crappy paraphrase didn't really capture the essence of "I'm going to blow a hole in your chest now."

Modifié par 17thknight, 19 juillet 2010 - 07:47 .

[Arttis]

I really hope they do the wheel well.

Since it can turn out very wrong.

[17thknight]

Arttis wrote...

I really hope they do the wheel well.
Since it can turn out very wrong.

Well at least it won't suffer from the "Paragon renegade" stuff that so thoroughly hindered Mass Effect. And I pray to god they don't just slap good answers in the upper-right, and mean answers in the lower-right. That would just be a tragedy.

All in all, though, I have never liked the wheel.

[Arttis]

Maybe peaceful answers on top and violent ones on bottom?They showed one pic that had the wheel with Then we fight at the bottom and I am right beside you at the top?

[In Exile]

17thknight wrote...
No, that is not what is appealing about the dialogue system. I may not know what the OTHER character is going to do, but I absolutely want to know what MY character will do.

But the game does not have to recognize this. I've debated this quite often on this forum by now, so I'll give the brief version.

To the other side of the debate, non-VO is no less restrictive. The absence of tone/voice means nothing, because in virtue of the other character responding to you a certain way, what you've said is already defined. Now, the common retort is that you can pretend this is a misunderstanding. But that just sounds like a reality-denying rationalization to some of us, who refuse to say that it is possible for things to happen off screen to your characters and others in video-games.

So when misunderstandings based on our intent and the NPCs arise, they are just bad implementation. It's just the same when you have a particular way you want to react, and the game just outright denies it to you (for example, Couslands can never convince the Landsmeet to abandon both Anora and Alistair for them, but this is a plausible political ploy).

So there you go - the short version of the other side, which happens to think VO is superior to non-VO for RPG purposes, and that Bioware is just off the deep-end with this 3rd person narrative is less immersive and "yours" nonsense.

[17thknight]

In Exile wrote...


So there you go - the short version of the other side, which happens to think VO is superior to non-VO for RPG purposes, and that Bioware is just off the deep-end with this 3rd person narrative is less immersive and "yours" nonsense.

Of course, but it has nothing to do with VO or not VO. It's the paraphrasing on the wheel. It's the inability to know precisely what will be said and done. THAT is the problem.

There is absolutely no reason for you to not have the ability to see everything your character will say or do, even if it's just an option to click on it. They already have to write the dialogue out for purposes of subtitles, there's no excuse for not making your character's words and actions unavailable.

[soteria]

This post made me so angry I wanted to punch my screen.

No, that is not what is appealing about the dialogue system. I may not know what the OTHER character is going to do, but I absolutely want to know what MY character will do.

You interpreted his post completely wrong and the opposite of what he meant. He's saying you will know what your character is going to say and intend with dialogue choices but you won't know what the consequences (the NPC's reaction) will be.

[17thknight]

soteria wrote...
You interpreted his post completely wrong and the opposite of what he meant. He's saying you will know what your character is going to say and intend with dialogue choices but you won't know what the consequences (the NPC's reaction) will be.

That has nothing to do with what we're asking, nothing to do with my original post, and nothing to do with the thread. Maybe that's what he meant, but why even bother saying it?

No one's asking for us to know what the NPC will do, we want to know what WE will do.

[AlanC9]

Well, you could politely point out to Victor that his answer wan't exactly on point, rather than getting so angry you want to punch your screen.

[In Exile]

17thknight wrote...

Of course, but it has nothing to do with VO or not VO. It's the paraphrasing on the wheel. It's the inability to know precisely what will be said and done. THAT is the problem.

It does tie into VO, because once you have VO, you can allow for dynamic conversations. It is not simply that Shepard speaks, but that you see Shepard act and interact with the world. I am not just talking about reporter punching instances (which the interrupt system was designed to address) but things such as posture, tone, and so on.

There is absolutely no reason for you to not have the ability to see everything your character will say or do, even if it's just an option to click on it. They already have to write the dialogue out for purposes of subtitles, there's no excuse for not making your character's words and actions unavailable.

I am firmly in the camp that communication is about getting a message across, which is more than just the content of what you say. The player needs to know what the content of the line is, what the delivery is, and how the player character will act in the world as a consequence. These are all things we control beyond merely the series of words that we construct when we communicate.

To give you an example, consider the line: What a great idea.

In itself, in isolation, this line could mean many things. Simply put, the pragmatics of the sentence make a difference (i.e. What a great idea versus What a great idea). More to the point, the sentence completely flips meaning if it is delivered straight or sarcastically (as in, What a great idea or What a great idea <_<).

In VO, you have to convey this becaue the PC is effectively directed. And so it is not merely enough to deliver the line.

[17thknight]

AlanC9 wrote...

Well, you could politely point out to Victor that his answer wan't exactly on point, rather than getting so angry you want to punch your screen.

I didn't realize he was talking completely offpoint, I took his words at face value. He said we didn't want to know what would happen in a conversation. That made me rage.

It's like he came into this thread specifically to tell me I don't wnat what I want.

In Exile wrote...

In VO, you have to convey this becaue
the PC is effectively directed. And so it is not merely enough to
deliver the line.

Completely irrelevant. Books
manage to convey the same thing, except they are never hampered by
crappy acting and so they tend to do a far better job at it.

STILL this does not answer why they cannot give your
character's words and actions to you.

You'll all be here ****ing the day after the game comes out saying "I clicked on ______ dialogue option and my character killed someone! WTF!!!" 

Modifié par 17thknight, 19 juillet 2010 - 08:48 .

[Arrtis]

Just easily ruined by the writer...

[KalDurenik]

I could not agree any less. Just because the is VO dont mean that there cant be a text based system. Following your logic you dont want a delay when picking a choice. Think of a situation like this:

*Bandits are holding civilians as hostages... You walk forward and he talks to you...
The wheel spawn on the screen and you think what you want to pick...

Do you think the "bandits" will wait for you to decide what to say? NO there should be a time limit on 2sec with your logic.

Honestly im shocked overall on this topic... But then again we are on a Bioware forum...

Modifié par KalDurenik, 19 juillet 2010 - 08:59 .