468 réponses à ce sujet

[soteria]

17thknight wrote...

That has nothing to do with what we're asking, nothing to do with my original post, and nothing to do with the thread. Maybe that's what he meant, but why even bother saying it?

No one's asking for us to know what the NPC will do, we want to know what WE will do.

Probably because I asked, or rather, commented that I wouldn't want the NPC's possible actions to be reflected in the dialogue wheel. He quoted me when he responded three or four pages back.

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm gonna go cynical here and say that you stop the clock whenever your personal favorite game was made. Everything after that is newfangled crap that only appeals to the console kiddies, or whoever the enemies du jour are.

Either that isn't true for me personally or I just haven't found "that game" yet. So far it seems most games I've played have had their share of flaws and virtues.

Addai67 wrote...

You don't think it requires energy to read? More energy than sitting back and watching TV or a movie? That is interesting, but I would wager it is not the experience of most people.

It depends on what I'm reading. Pleasure reading doesn't take energy, and it's certainly not "active" in any sense, unless you're talking about choose-your-own-adventure stories.

[uberdowzen]

I really don't see how taking the same dialogue options and arranging them around a wheel suddenly ruins the game. If in Mass Effect you just always went to the top option or the bottom one, you were just being lazy and not actually reading the text. There were only 2 or 3 occasions in both ME games combined where I thought Shepherd had done something that I hadn't intended, and I've had way more times in Dragon Age where my character has ended up saying something in a different tone then I expected.

[In Exile]

17thknight wrote...
Completely irrelevant. Books manage to convey the same thing, except they are never hampered by crappy acting and so they tend to do a far better job at it.

I don't know what books you read, but the ones I read don't let me pick what characters are saying.

We're talking about conveying all of the information in a dialogue option that is designed to be dynamic to the player. A book is nothing like a text-based RPG, much less like an RPG with VO. 

STILL this does not answer why they cannot give your character's words and actions to you.

Well, for one, I don't think they never did. But that's a debate that is really not worth having because we'll never agree.

You'll all be here ****ing the day after the game comes out saying "I clicked on ______ dialogue option and my character killed someone! WTF!!!"

How is that dramatically different from "none of these options represent what my character would say" or "my character would never do any of these things but instead this other thing". It's always writer railroad. You just seem to notice it else.

[soteria]

Completely irrelevant. Books manage to convey the same thing, except they are never hampered by crappy acting and so they tend to do a far better job at it.

Books communicate sarcasm, humor, anger, and other emotions in dialogue by describing how a character delivers a line. "John angrily retorted," "Sue's lips quirked as she said," etc. The dialogue options in Dragon Age and every other Bioware game come short of showing that range of emotion. The written word can portray these things, but short of completely changing the way they write dialogue (*cough*, DA2) what they've done so far in games without voice acting has fallen short.

Modifié par soteria, 19 juillet 2010 - 09:23 .

[In Exile]

soteria wrote...
Books communicate sarcasm, humor, anger, and other emotions in dialogue by describing how a character delivers a line. "John angrily retorted," "Sue's lips quirked as she said," etc. The dialogue options in Dragon Age and every other Bioware game come short of showing that range of emotion. The written word can portray these things, but short of completely changing the way they write dialogue (*cough*, DA2) what they've done so far in games without voice acting has fallen short.

The thing is, that's a totally different kind of communicating. The line isn't actually sarcastic. It has no tone other than the mental one you add, and you know to add a sarcastic one because the book is telling you to. There's just no way to do that in an audio-visual medium. You'd have to run all the way back to BG style interfaces to get even close, because there's no audio or visual anymore.

[Hollingdale]

With a Non-VO there is ultimately more room to indentify personally with your character because apart from the actual dialogue options it is your brain that will have to imagine voice, underlying thoughts and emotional responses.



With a VO and it's prefabricated personality there is little room for such interpretations.



Furthermore without a VO dialogue options cost less and don't have to sound believably hencewhy you get more and more varied (or in many cases just crazier) options than you would with a VO.



Theese are probably the reasons why I'm slightly more in favor of a non VO but looking at the actual discussions I tend to agree with those in favour of VO seeing as the other side presents little other than weak parallels which appear to me as little other than vain attempts to rationalize their own elitism.

[Aradace]

17thknight wrote...

Zerthus wrote...

It doesn't limit the possible responses. I specifically remember reading in one of the threads, a dev mentioning that despite the wheel they're still working with 6 options.
If I had a link to this statement I would post it, but I don't remember in which thread it was stated.

And yet that's still less than we had in Dragon Age. The possible nuance of the responses is limited by the wheel, as are the on-screen words. It inevitably results in severe paraphrasing and numerous "extreme" responses of pure good or pure evil . The Game Informer screenshots show the paraphrasing is already present.

You people have GOT to get over this....It's a simple matter really.  If you dont like the way the franchise is going then dont buy the sodding game....If you dont like the dialog wheel, too bad, they're doing it....If you dont like the new art style (which unless it improves massively ill only be renting the game and not buying it.) get over it and dont buy it (or just rent it like Im probably going to lol.)...If you dont like how there is "canon"...Get over it....

BioWare has already decided that this is the route that they are going with the game.  No amount of moaning or complaining is going to make them miraculously decided to scrap the project and start over from scratch just so it can appease the hardcore fanboys of the original game.  There were quite a few people angry and or disappointed by the fact that there is a finite amount of ammo in ME2 as opposed to infinite in ME1.  But, you know what? Just because people complained about it (And this was made known BEFORE the game launched that a finite system was being used.) didnt mean that they were going to go out and revert back to the old system.

The same could, and probably will, be said about anything they decide for DA2.  Artwork (the only thing Im loathing at this point), dialog wheel, canon...Whatever your complaint is, fine, get it out in the open and vent it....It's good to vent.  But if you actually expect that BioWare will suddenly decide NOT to implement any of the concepts that they've already put into play if they so choose to, then you are not only being unrealistic, but quite naive as well.

Take me for example....I was all on board with actually going out and preordering DA2 once gamestop gave us all a release date. But, because Im "worried" about those screenshots of the "alpha" artwork, I've merely decided that Im probably going to rent the game and just not buy it until I see some more recent screen shots.  I guess my point is to reiterate that no matter what WE think, if BioWare decides this is where they want to go, they're going to go there regardless of what anyone else thinks.  I can promise you that there wont be enough people NOT buying the game to concern BioWare with losing profits.

[17thknight]

Aradace wrote...



You people have GOT to get over this....It's a simple matter really.  If you dont like the way the franchise is going then dont buy the sodding game....If you dont like the dialog wheel, too bad, they're doing it....If you dont like the new art style (which unless it improves massively ill only be renting the game and not buying it.) get over it and dont buy it (or just rent it like Im probably going to lol.)...If you dont like how there is "canon"...Get over it....
.

That's a terrible response. That's like saying "you don't like where the country is going so get out." Abhorrent. If you think something deserves to be changed then you fight to change it, you don't roll over and die. You protest, you make your voice heard.

And yeah, not buying the game is part of making them hear your voice. Nothing speaks more powerfully than the mighty Dollar.

Saying to people with LEGIT complaints, who are begging the developers to change the direction of the game, to "get over it" is pretty childish and pretty demeaning. Would you say the same thing to people out protesting any other cause? "Get over it"? 

Sorry, pal, but we are NOT going to get over it. We are going to continue to make our voices heard. There are SIMPLE changes they can implement to fix much of what they have done to anger the fans of DA:O and we are asking that they do them.

And guess what? We aren't going to shut up about it, either. So how about you get over that? 

[Arttis]

I like rolling over and dying.

Besides fighting leads to dying most of the time.

But since no one will get hurt physically everyone protests...waste of time seeing as how they will not change the game after all the money spent to make it the way it is.

No matter how much you fight.Unless you somehow control the world.

But then your gonna have a million would be heroes coming after you.

[17thknight]

uberdowzen wrote...

I really don't see how taking the same dialogue options and arranging them around a wheel suddenly ruins the game.

You're either a troll or you're responding to my entire thread without even bothering to read my original post. The first sentence I wrote I said that this has NOTHING to do with aesthestics of a "wheel".

[soteria]

That's a terrible response. That's like saying "you don't like where the country is going so get out." Abhorrent. If you think something deserves to be changed then you fight to change it, you don't roll over and die. You protest, you make your voice heard.

...

Saying to people with LEGIT complaints, who are begging the developers to change the direction of the game, to "get over it" is pretty childish and pretty demeaning. Would you say the same thing to people out protesting any other cause? "Get over it"?

You should really put this in perspective. A video game is a luxury item. If Bioware releases a game that you won't like, you haven't lost anything. Suggesting that you simply not buy a luxury item you won't care for cannot be compared to telling someone to leave their home. That comparison is wrong in so many ways I don't even know how to begin to address it.

He has a point. Bioware is not going to change their direction at this point, and if you're complaining with the expectation that they're going to do something different, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment. In that case, yes, I'd say "get over it" is fairly sound advice.

[Arrtis]

The wheel is better thus I will explain.

The wheel is shorter and lets you in on the emotion and intent you are using.

The wheel damn well looks better than 1.2.3.4.5. Which often with many choices breaks the text box.

The Wheel will not have that problem.

The wheel also comes Lets you hear your characters voice as you watch thus giving a more cenimatic experience.Many people like this.

If you do not Oh well I cannot help you.

So....Your intent will be less likely misinterpreted and very much understood.By you the msot important person that should understand.

You may Fight but you will not win.They want it to be this way and since they are making the game and not you/putting in all the money and not you it will stay.

[KappaOmicron]

I have nothing against the similar to Mass Effect conversation wheel DA:II is adding, in my opinion I am actually looking forward to it, BUT there is one thing I have to beg for and that is when you skip dialogues seens please keep it how it was in DA:O where it would not progress until you select something because you couldn't do that on the Mass Effect games and sometines once you're on your 20th+ playthrough you want to skip some but there is always the chance you end up skipping another conversation selection because of it, whereas DA:O solved that problem.

[Aradace]

17thknight wrote...

Aradace wrote...



You people have GOT to get over this....It's a simple matter really.  If you dont like the way the franchise is going then dont buy the sodding game....If you dont like the dialog wheel, too bad, they're doing it....If you dont like the new art style (which unless it improves massively ill only be renting the game and not buying it.) get over it and dont buy it (or just rent it like Im probably going to lol.)...If you dont like how there is "canon"...Get over it....
.

That's a terrible response. That's like saying "you don't like where the country is going so get out." Abhorrent. If you think something deserves to be changed then you fight to change it, you don't roll over and die. You protest, you make your voice heard.

And yeah, not buying the game is part of making them hear your voice. Nothing speaks more powerfully than the mighty Dollar.

Saying to people with LEGIT complaints, who are begging the developers to change the direction of the game, to "get over it" is pretty childish and pretty demeaning. Would you say the same thing to people out protesting any other cause? "Get over it"? 

Sorry, pal, but we are NOT going to get over it. We are going to continue to make our voices heard. There are SIMPLE changes they can implement to fix much of what they have done to anger the fans of DA:O and we are asking that they do them.

And guess what? We aren't going to shut up about it, either. So how about you get over that? 

lol the only problem with this is that as I stated already in my previous post that there isnt enough people AGAINST the direction the game is going to affect BioWare's profits one bit, making "speaking with your wallet" in this case absolutely pointless...Secondly, I also had an issue with this game's development, again, as I stated in my previous post but you were apparently too focused on picking out what YOU wanted to see to actually see that I had a complaint as well, the "artstyle"....So guess what? Im including MYSELF in the list of "get over it and move on" to which I have really.  As I stated before, I have resigned (until I can see some more recent screenshots anyway) to only rent the game instead of buying it.  Now, do I have the delusion that I believe that by my merely renting the game that I am going to affect BioWare's profits at all? Hell no I dont lol.

To think that there are enough people behind the "Speak with your wallets" front to actually affect this game's development and therefore future sales and revenue is again, unrealistic and naive.  And to the other question I reply thusly: 

No, I dont think those people should "get out of the country".....I think they have the right to their opinion....And they have the right to voice it....However, dont go in thinking that anything is going to change just because you are voicing your concerns.   The decision ultimately lies in the hands of those in "power", not the people.  The same "logic" can be applied to this game's marketing.  We, the consumers, can voice our concerns all we want and until we are blue in the face...But it is ultimately up to BioWare whether or not they are going to change anything.  And BioWare, just like any other company, is going to value sales and revenue over all else in the end...Because MONEY is what makes them able to stay in business.  And if they can net at least 1-2 "new" people to the franchise for every 1 that is lost on the "DA:O fans" side....Then the numbers balance out.  Meaning that they've weeded out the complainers AND pulled in a new "fanbase" at the same time that agrees with the direction the franchise is going.

[Gaxhung]

This is a response to the OP
1) Imagine you have full VO
2) Imagine you have fully worded character response, ala DAO
3) Imagine you click on a fully worded character response and the VO voices the exact same wording again.
4) WTF right?

It makes sense in the case of full VOed main character to use convo-wheel, because of point 3.

[Andros_Hanarak]

The Wheel also has one advantage that at least a friend of mine pointed out. It helps with his Dislexia, OR at least that's what he told me when playing ME 1 and 2.

[Estelindis]

Personally, I found the conversation system to be one of only two things Mass Effect did better than Dragon Age.



All the conversation wheel needs to be perfect is someone with excellent summarisation skills. This person's responsibility (along with whatever other writing duties fall to her or him) would be to ensure that the short conversation-wheel versions of the player responses do not mislead the player into choosing something that they would not have chosen if they could have seen the long version before making their choice. The short version should accurately sum up the long version. That is all.

[Aradace]

Estelindis wrote...

Personally, I found the conversation system to be one of only two things Mass Effect did better than Dragon Age.

All the conversation wheel needs to be perfect is someone with excellent summarisation skills. This person's responsibility (along with whatever other writing duties fall to her or him) would be to ensure that the short conversation-wheel versions of the player responses do not mislead the player into choosing something that they would not have chosen if they could have seen the long version before making their choice. The short version should accurately sum up the long version. That is all.

TBH...ME did great with the "conversation wheel" but theres still one game I liked better in that regard (and was the only thing I liked about that game lol.) and that was Alpha Protocol....As a whole, AP sucked....But the conversation wheel was awesome....I didnt like the generic "Aggressive" "Professional" etc etc...labels that littered every response but I liked the basic concept:  Put the player's dialog options up on the screen and then give them a set amount of time to respond.  That way, it eliminates you being able to sit there for 20-30 mins at a time (if indeed there are people who take that long to decide what to say) and think about what you want to say.

Think about it, do you really get to sit there in a RL conversation and think about what you want to say? Hell no lol...You have a few seconds tops before the other person starts looking at you and going "Hello? What? are you examining the dialog wheel for a response or what?" or something similar

I know it couldnt be implemented in the exact same way, or for that matter, probably at all in a ME or DA setting but still...I liked how AP did it and respect them for at least getting that right in the game.

[Estelindis]

Aradace wrote...
ME did great with the "conversation wheel" but theres still one game I liked better in that regard (and was the only thing I liked about that game lol.) and that was Alpha Protocol....

I agree.  I think AP's execution of the conversation wheel was excellent.

While I appreciate you not liking the pigeonholing of most AP responses into the aggressive, suave, and professional paradigms, I really liked the fact that these approaches, while different, were intercompatible.  So, if my generally-professional Agent Thorton sometimes takes an aggressive approach, he doesn't suddenly sound like he's lost his mind and become a different person.  There is an internal logic to the whole framework.

Bioware might learn something from this in making ME3's renegade responses internally consistent with the supposed "win at all costs" philosophy rather than simply sounding jerkish most of the time.  As for DA2, I would sincerely urge at least a few people on the dev team to play Alpha Protocol and see just how well a conversation wheel can work out.

[Addai]

Aradace wrote...

You people have GOT to get over this....It's a simple matter really.  If you dont like the way the franchise is going then dont buy the sodding game....If you dont like the dialog wheel, too bad, they're doing it....If you dont like the new art style (which unless it improves massively ill only be renting the game and not buying it.) get over it and dont buy it (or just rent it like Im probably going to lol.)...If you dont like how there is "canon"...Get over it....

Hey, thanks for stating the obvious.

However, pointing out to the devs that DAO did pretty well despite its so-called flaws is far from desperate illogic.  There's nothing inevitable about these changes, not unless you tell yourself they are.  The RPG market is not huge to begin with, so if you alienate a lot of those who are already in it, are you really going to make up for it by prying a few people away from their hack and slash?  Who knows.  It's a gamble, and for whatever reason Bioware wants to make it, but the constant harrassment to "get with the program" is... well, annoying.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

soteria wrote...
Books communicate sarcasm, humor, anger, and other emotions in dialogue by describing how a character delivers a line. "John angrily retorted," "Sue's lips quirked as she said," etc. The dialogue options in Dragon Age and every other Bioware game come short of showing that range of emotion. The written word can portray these things, but short of completely changing the way they write dialogue (*cough*, DA2) what they've done so far in games without voice acting has fallen short.

The thing is, that's a totally different kind of communicating. The line isn't actually sarcastic. It has no tone other than the mental one you add, and you know to add a sarcastic one because the book is telling you to. There's just no way to do that in an audio-visual medium. You'd have to run all the way back to BG style interfaces to get even close, because there's no audio or visual anymore.

Being able to add mental nuances is precisely the advantage, and losing that advantage is what we're lamenting.  But I suspect you know this and are now going to tell us that such an advantage is only in our heads and is meaningless.

[KalDurenik]

Gaxhung wrote...

This is a response to the OP
1) Imagine you have full VO
2) Imagine you have fully worded character response, ala DAO
3) Imagine you click on a fully worded character response and the VO voices the exact same wording again.
4) WTF right?

It makes sense in the case of full VOed main character to use convo-wheel, because of point 3.

Well holy crap! In that case there should be a timer on how long time you have to response before the NPC do / react.
Lets say 2 sec? I mean the fact that one can sit back and go afk for 2 hours and that the other NPC will just stand there and look at you is horrible.

Oh well it wont get changed. Most people on this forum luv it O.o 

[Addai]

soteria wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You don't think it requires energy to read? More energy than sitting back and watching TV or a movie? That is interesting, but I would wager it is not the experience of most people.

It depends on what I'm reading. Pleasure reading doesn't take energy, and it's certainly not "active" in any sense, unless you're talking about choose-your-own-adventure stories.

I disagree.  Even "pleasure" reading requires more a more active mental process than watching TV or a movie, in my experience.  My brain goes into standby when watching visual media.  Visual media sucks out your brain.

I saw this rather vividly when I lived overseas and made a conscious decision not to get cable television.  So I had no access to visual media but for the local TV, which was terrible and in a different language so in effect I only listened to radio and read books (and a few internet sites, mostly news) for a year.  The depth of concentration I had was a quantum leap from the usual, not to mention free time, but it was proof to me that visual media creates in us a kind of passive indolence that other kinds of input don't.

Now, I'm not saying that playing a video game should be an intellectual exercise- it's entertainment and should be relaxing.  But the context of that discussion was that visual media is more passive rather than active and in saying that games are becoming more cinematic, to my mind it means becoming more of a passive, inactive experience.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 juillet 2010 - 04:00 .

[AlanC9]

Addai67 wrote...
I disagree.  Even "pleasure" reading requires more a more active mental process than watching TV or a movie, in my experience.  My brain goes into standby when watching visual media.  Visual media sucks out your brain.

But is that true for a visual medium that you're controlling?

[Addai]

AlanC9 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I disagree.  Even "pleasure" reading requires more a more active mental process than watching TV or a movie, in my experience.  My brain goes into standby when watching visual media.  Visual media sucks out your brain.

But is that true for a visual medium that you're controlling?

Not as much, I'm sure, but in playing games like the Witcher or Mass Effect, it does seem like the player is a superfluous entity.  Multiply the amount of time I'm just sitting back and watching, and I start to feel like it's a tedious way to experience a story.