468 réponses à ce sujet

[uberdowzen]

17thknight wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

I really don't see how taking the same dialogue options and arranging them around a wheel suddenly ruins the game.

You're either a troll or you're responding to my entire thread without even bothering to read my original post. The first sentence I wrote I said that this has NOTHING to do with aesthestics of a "wheel".

You're assuming that they will be para-phrasing. If you'd read my post you'd have noticed that I said the "same" dialogue choices. I haven't read the Game Informer article but as far as I know there isn't going to be para-phrasing. Even if there is, you'll notice the rest of my post says that I've had more issues where my character spoke in a different tone then I expected in DAO than in ME.

[Addai]

uberdowzen wrote...

You're assuming that they will be para-phrasing. If you'd read my post you'd have noticed that I said the "same" dialogue choices. I haven't read the Game Informer article but as far as I know there isn't going to be para-phrasing. Even if there is, you'll notice the rest of my post says that I've had more issues where my character spoke in a different tone then I expected in DAO than in ME.

Yes, the dialogue choices on the wheel will be a paraphrase.  The article calls it a "Mass Effect-like dialogue system" and Mike Laidlaw confirmed here on the forum that it will work like that.  The rationale is that it would be dull, and unnecessary, to both read and hear the PC response.

Not sure what you mean about your character speaking in a different tone in DAO?    I take it that you mean NPCs reacted to you in ways you found unpredictable?

[Riona45]

mr_nameless wrote...


Learn to read people, this is supposed to be an RPG (or not??). I'd rather read it and imagine it acted out as I'm reading....

You're talking about books, not RPGS.  RPGS don't inherently require reading.  I play tabletop RPGs where no text reading is required on the part of the players, you simply say whatever you think your character would say.

Modifié par Riona45, 19 juillet 2010 - 09:09 .

[Aradace]

Addai67 wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

You're assuming that they will be para-phrasing. If you'd read my post you'd have noticed that I said the "same" dialogue choices. I haven't read the Game Informer article but as far as I know there isn't going to be para-phrasing. Even if there is, you'll notice the rest of my post says that I've had more issues where my character spoke in a different tone then I expected in DAO than in ME.

Yes, the dialogue choices on the wheel will be a paraphrase.  The article calls it a "Mass Effect-like dialogue system" and Mike Laidlaw confirmed here on the forum that it will work like that.  The rationale is that it would be dull, and unnecessary, to both read and hear the PC response.

Not sure what you mean about your character speaking in a different tone in DAO?    I take it that you mean NPCs reacted to you in ways you found unpredictable?

Im sorry but Im on the "I like the idea of a Voiced hero" bandwagon....Why? Because I hate playing the part of the stoic, voiceless hero...In a free roam RPG like Elderscrolls and Fallout, that kind of thing works....But for something that is on the scale of Dragon Age and Mass Effect, a voiced hero is almost mandatory...Ok well not mandatory but still.  And, for whatever reason, BioWare apparently thinks that the silent hero wasnt the way to go either...And, I agree with them...Probably not for the same reasons, but I agree with them none the less. 

No matter the amount of asking otherwise is going to change the fact that this is the direction BioWare want to take the franchise....When I want a voiceless "hero" I play Bethesda and/or Obsidian games....Again, the silent and stoic route is obviously NOT the path they want to go and have opted for a more "cinematic" experience.  To that, I say awesome because that was one of the "turn offs" for me in DA:O.  That, and no New Game Plus

[Addai]

Aradace wrote...

No matter the amount of asking otherwise is going to change the fact that this is the direction BioWare want to take the franchise....When I want a voiceless "hero" I play Bethesda and/or Obsidian games....Again, the silent and stoic route is obviously NOT the path they want to go and have opted for a more "cinematic" experience.  To that, I say awesome because that was one of the "turn offs" for me in DA:O.  That, and no New Game Plus

"I like it so shut up," is that about where you're coming from?

[Spacekungfuman]

I still don't understand why they can't give us both options. I have never felt more removed in my life from a character than I did from Shepard, because he consistently said things that did not fit the concept of my character, or things that I wanted to say.



That said, I was not able to play fallout 3 past the first town, because I could not bring myself to say to the sheriff "I'm looking for my father. Middle-aged guy. Maybe you've seen him?" because my character concept was not a mental deficient. . . So I guess that you need (1) to know what you'll say and (2) to have lines that are actually worth saying.

[Riona45]

dancrilis wrote...

Haven't posted much lately however after hearing about the conversation wheel for the sequal I had to.

I have a solution, a solution that will keep everyone happy, such a bleedingly obvious solution that I have to assume that someone has already though of it posted it and had it criticed/slashed apart and burned by the internet masses.

Have both.

A conversation wheel with the six options choosen from feeling for people that like that, then have the character say the sentance.
And have an option to have the six options listed in full from a list to allow people that want to choose exactly what the character will say to do so (this option might then skip the voice over as redundent, or not at player option).

Everyone is a winner (except the poor unfortunately that has to code in the options, but they always have a hard time with feature requests).

Someone reposted a post from Stanley Woo addressing this very issue.  Everyone is a winner except the people making the game--they have to do double the work.

[Spacekungfuman]

Riona45 wrote...

dancrilis wrote...

Haven't posted much lately however after hearing about the conversation wheel for the sequal I had to.

I have a solution, a solution that will keep everyone happy, such a bleedingly obvious solution that I have to assume that someone has already though of it posted it and had it criticed/slashed apart and burned by the internet masses.

Have both.

A conversation wheel with the six options choosen from feeling for people that like that, then have the character say the sentance.
And have an option to have the six options listed in full from a list to allow people that want to choose exactly what the character will say to do so (this option might then skip the voice over as redundent, or not at player option).

Everyone is a winner (except the poor unfortunately that has to code in the options, but they always have a hard time with feature requests).

Someone reposted a post from Stanley Woo addressing this very issue.  Everyone is a winner except the people making the game--they have to do double the work.

I reposted, but I honestly don't believe it can be twice the work.  It just has to be a skin for the interface.  It will take some work for sure, but I don't see how can it be double the amount. . .

[In Exile]

Spacekungfuman wrote...

I reposted, but I honestly don't believe it can be twice the work.  It just has to be a skin for the interface.  It will take some work for sure, but I don't see how can it be double the amount. . .

You need a second UI. Which means you have to built it, QA it, implement it, test it out so there are no bugs, then work out a toggle and make sure there are no bugs in that and the game doesnt sponateously switch between interfaces, etc.

It isn`t just slapping on a new paintjob.

[Spacekungfuman]

In Exile wrote...

Spacekungfuman wrote...

I reposted, but I honestly don't believe it can be twice the work.  It just has to be a skin for the interface.  It will take some work for sure, but I don't see how can it be double the amount. . .

You need a second UI. Which means you have to built it, QA it, implement it, test it out so there are no bugs, then work out a toggle and make sure there are no bugs in that and the game doesnt sponateously switch between interfaces, etc.

It isn`t just slapping on a new paintjob.

People are able to reskin Wow, and display the raw data the game puts out in completely different ways.  I don't see why this would be any harder.  Its not a complete UI redesign even.  Just a different format for displaying information.

[soteria]

Even if it's just an alternate "skin," it would still take roughly double the work, since they have to link all those possible dialogue options to their responses. Whether they do that individually or as a group it has to be done. I guess it would be at least as much work as implementing a translation of the text (minus paying a translator).

[soteria]

People are able to reskin Wow, and display the raw data the game puts out in completely different ways. I don't see why this would be any harder. Its not a complete UI redesign even. Just a different format for displaying information.

WoW's UI was designed from the ground up to be highly moddable. The UI in Dragon age is, as I understand, completely unmoddable.

[MrBurgundy]

It makes sense on a console, but on the PC there is no reason to use a wheel you might as well let us know exactly what we are saying

[GurkBoll]

Narreneth wrote...

GurkBoll wrote...


CoD and Half-Life are not RPGs so they are not really good examples.    Also, you're kind of making generalizations in saying that having a voice makes you feel less like the person you're playing.  That may be true for you but it isn't true for everyone.  Some people voiceovers will work better for, others lack of voiceovers, and others still will be able to feel like they are their character with or without voices equally.   To say great games never voice main characters is not true in the slightest; especially being that great game is a relative term.  What you think of as a great game I may not.  CoD is a perfect example of this.  I don't really like the CoD series.  I hated the first three, liked the 4th, thought World at War was just okay, and Modern Warfare 2 again, just okay.  On the other hand, you didn't mention GTA4 which I think is a stellar game.  You may not.  

I've got no problem with you having a differing opinion from me, but you need to understand that what you're saying is only true for you and whoever agrees with you.  There are legions of people who will have different perspectives.

You are right on all points, I sincerely apologize for my little rage post. The thing is that it seems like games are turning more and more into movies, sacrificing player controll for more fluid cinematic experience. This beeing said you probobly understand that I am no fan of quicktime events, autoaim or anything that happens autimaticly. Greate examples of this is the "mark and execute" system from Splinter Cell. And that is how previously complex and free games gets boiled down to simple cinematics.

In my opinion it makes you feel like you are riding on the back of the main character tapping him on the head everytime you want him to do something. I can understand why developers choose this as it is easier to create awesome sequences and it makes the game more accesible for the console gamers.

What disturbs me is that paraphrasing the dialog makes it impossible to know exactly what the main character is going to say before he says it, and from a role-playing perspective isn't that taking it one step away from "beeing" the character in question. And why fix something that isn't broken? The scroll menu has proven itself over and over again, sure it may slow down the sequence and ot may take som extra time for the consolers to choose there alternetive once they read everything. But as dialog get more and more complex (which I hope it will) with more steps between the "good" and "evil" alternetive you will need to know exactly what your character is going to say, therefore the paraphrase system is set to fail.

I know this is an opinion from a person that want absolute controll. But then again isn't that role-playinge?

[In Exile]

Spacekungfuman wrote...
People are able to reskin Wow, and display the raw data the game puts out in completely different ways.  I don't see why this would be any harder.  Its not a complete UI redesign even.  Just a different format for displaying information.

I don`t play MMOs. Does WoW have dialogue choice like DA or is it just a cosmetic difference?

To achieve this in DA:O, you would need a second UI.

ETA:

More to the point, it doesn't matter. Someone had to design a new UI for WoW. Whether it was Blizzard or some dude in his van, it took time and energy. So Bioware would have to at least invest that. And WoW code is not DA code, as soteria brought up.

None of this is to say that it will actually take twice as much work. But it will take more work and cost more.

Modifié par In Exile, 19 juillet 2010 - 09:44 .

[AntiChri5]

MrBurgundy wrote...

It makes sense on a console, but on the PC there is no reason to use a wheel you might as well let us know exactly what we are saying

Alright, your going to have to explain this one, in what way does it make sense on one and not the other?

[Narreneth]

GurkBoll wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

GurkBoll wrote...


CoD and Half-Life are not RPGs so they are not really good examples.    Also, you're kind of making generalizations in saying that having a voice makes you feel less like the person you're playing.  That may be true for you but it isn't true for everyone.  Some people voiceovers will work better for, others lack of voiceovers, and others still will be able to feel like they are their character with or without voices equally.   To say great games never voice main characters is not true in the slightest; especially being that great game is a relative term.  What you think of as a great game I may not.  CoD is a perfect example of this.  I don't really like the CoD series.  I hated the first three, liked the 4th, thought World at War was just okay, and Modern Warfare 2 again, just okay.  On the other hand, you didn't mention GTA4 which I think is a stellar game.  You may not.  

I've got no problem with you having a differing opinion from me, but you need to understand that what you're saying is only true for you and whoever agrees with you.  There are legions of people who will have different perspectives.

You are right on all points, I sincerely apologize for my little rage post. The thing is that it seems like games are turning more and more into movies, sacrificing player controll for more fluid cinematic experience. This beeing said you probobly understand that I am no fan of quicktime events, autoaim or anything that happens autimaticly. Greate examples of this is the "mark and execute" system from Splinter Cell. And that is how previously complex and free games gets boiled down to simple cinematics.

In my opinion it makes you feel like you are riding on the back of the main character tapping him on the head everytime you want him to do something. I can understand why developers choose this as it is easier to create awesome sequences and it makes the game more accesible for the console gamers.

What disturbs me is that paraphrasing the dialog makes it impossible to know exactly what the main character is going to say before he says it, and from a role-playing perspective isn't that taking it one step away from "beeing" the character in question. And why fix something that isn't broken? The scroll menu has proven itself over and over again, sure it may slow down the sequence and ot may take som extra time for the consolers to choose there alternetive once they read everything. But as dialog get more and more complex (which I hope it will) with more steps between the "good" and "evil" alternetive you will need to know exactly what your character is going to say, therefore the paraphrase system is set to fail.

I know this is an opinion from a person that want absolute controll. But then again isn't that role-playinge?

The paraphrasing seems to be a pretty big concern with a lot of people who don't like the idea of the wheel.  Unfortunately I don't think there's much we as a community can do but wait and see how it is implemented.  I know that has been said about a lot of things; but, I think in the case of the dialogue wheel it's really the only option.  We as a community don't know if the implementation works or not until we try it out and see if there's any off-putting moments where you pick "Yes, I will pay you" and get "Sure I'll give you the gold.  If you pry it from my cold dead fingers. Have at you!" Not to say there's anything wrong with voicing concerns about it.  I think it's important to say you have those concerns about not knowing what will be said so the development team makes sure that whatever the writers write for the character is as close to the paraphrasing and accompanying emoticon as humanly possible.  I think with proper feedback from QA and good information from the community the wheel can be just as successful as the dialogue system from Origins.

[In Exile]

GurkBoll wrote...
What disturbs me is that paraphrasing the dialog makes it impossible to know exactly what the main character is going to say before he says it, and from a role-playing perspective isn't that taking it one step away from "beeing" the character in question. And why fix something that isn't broken? The scroll menu has proven itself over and over again, sure it may slow down the sequence and ot may take som extra time for the consolers to choose there alternetive once they read everything. But as dialog get more and more complex (which I hope it will) with more steps between the "good" and "evil" alternetive you will need to know exactly what your character is going to say, therefore the paraphrase system is set to fail.

I know this is an opinion from a person that want absolute controll. But then again isn't that role-playinge?

The answer, for some of us, is that the silent VO system is in fact something that reduces our experience of role-playing, and not what we consider role-playing. I don't want to get into explaining all of that again, but suffice it to say that there are people who see the same facts you do and come to an opposite conclusion.

Essentially the gist is, what it means for us pro-VO crowd to be our character and what it means for the silent-PC crowd to be their character is not the same thing, and is in fact potentially at odds.

You might be wondering why I am talking about VO when you quite clearly mention only paraphrasing. The answer is that once you have added VO, as I said to Sylvius, you need more information than just the dialogue line once you make the player a dynamic part of the game.

I agree that the ME implementation is poor, but that doesn't imply the absence of a wheel is better.

[Narreneth]

In Exile wrote...

Spacekungfuman wrote...
People are able to reskin Wow, and display the raw data the game puts out in completely different ways.  I don't see why this would be any harder.  Its not a complete UI redesign even.  Just a different format for displaying information.

I don`t play MMOs. Does WoW have dialogue choice like DA or is it just a cosmetic difference?

To achieve this in DA:O, you would need a second UI.

ETA:

More to the point, it doesn't matter. Someone had to design a new UI for WoW. Whether it was Blizzard or some dude in his van, it took time and energy. So Bioware would have to at least invest that. And WoW code is not DA code, as soteria brought up.

None of this is to say that it will actually take twice as much work. But it will take more work and cost more.

The modification in UI mods just takes information already provided by the basic UI and puts it somewhere else essentially.  There are meters that measure the amount of damage done every second by each person in a group, for example.  THey just take information already available and compile it into a meter that reads out in a simple way.  It's not anywhere near the same undertaking as programming a completely separate interface.  If you were to implement a UI type change for the wheel the way WoW mods work, it would be a list of the options on the wheel exactly as they appear (paraphrased).  They would need a completely separate UI to make a functioning version of what is being said.  Some lines will be rather long as well.  Remember, in Origins the max length was 65 characters.

[Narreneth]

I just realized how hideously put together my last couple sentences in the last post were. To clarify: In order to have a UI where the wheel is removed and each dialogue option is taken from the script verbatim, there would have to be a lot of extra work done. It's not as simple as taking the wheel out and putting the options into a list. If it were just a reskinning what you would end up with is a list of the options from the wheel, still paraphrased. And, since the paraphrasing allows for lines longer than 65 characters, the list, if it were done, would be very messy.

[uberdowzen]

Addai67 wrote...

Yes, the dialogue choices on the wheel will be a paraphrase.  The article calls it a "Mass Effect-like dialogue system" and Mike Laidlaw confirmed here on the forum that it will work like that.  The rationale is that it would be dull, and unnecessary, to both read and hear the PC response.

I agree with Mike on that. I'm playing Gothic 2 at the moment (which has a voice protagonist) and I just skip all my heroes lines. I played the demo of The Witcher which I felt suffered from this too. As long as the paraphrasing is as good as it is in ME then I'm fine with it.

Look at it this way. In Bioware games each dialogue choice pretty much gives the same conversation (maybe plus a line from the the person you're talking to get the conversation back on the pre defined route). At least with a conversation wheel even if your character says the exact same thing for different choices the conversation still makes sense, which I consider a bonus.

Not sure what you mean about your character speaking in a different tone in DAO?    I take it that you mean NPCs reacted to you in ways you found unpredictable?

No matter how powerful your imagination is (and despite your character not actually voicing the lines) your character always has a pre defined tone. Example:

Generic Knight Character: ...and then the Hurlock killed the rest of my family and I became depressed and joined your party.

(Dialogue Option): Awww, you poor thing!

Say you pick that dialogue option. Is your character being sarcastic or does s/he honestly feel sorry for the generic Knight? There is no way of affecting how your character makes this line sound, the Generic Knight character will either be offended or will thank you for your sympathy. It makes absolutely no difference whether you are imagining your character reading the line or whether an actor is actually reading it, the Knight character will always react based on how the developers intended this line to come across. The point I'm making is, unless the writing is very good that line could be interpreted in 2 different ways. To a certain extent, paraphrasing could fix this:

Generic Knight Character: ...and then the Hurlock killed the
rest of my family and I became depressed and joined your party.

                                                         ____
                                                       /            \\               That's horrible!
Investigate                                  |              |
                                                      \\  ____  /              Poor Sweet Baby.

This way you know exactly what your character will say and in what tone s/he is going to say it in. It's not that NPCs are being unpredictable it's just the devs intended the line in a different tone then what I thought.

Modifié par uberdowzen, 19 juillet 2010 - 10:50 .

[uberdowzen]

17thknight wrote...

This is the ultimate problem with the conversation wheel. It has nothing to do with how it looks and everything to do with how it functions. To solve this, the ME team simply shoved "Paragon" responses in the upper right, "neutral in the middle, and "Renegade" in the lower left. This is because, without this orientation it would have been completely impossible for us to determine whether many responses were "good bad or neutral".

I never really thought of it like this. To me, this just seems like one of the conventions that Bioware has always had with conversations. KOTOR for instance always had the Goodbye option last and the return to previous topic option second to last. I don't see why having the good descions at the top and bad ones at the bottom is really a problem if you still understand which is the good choice and which is the bad.

There are instances in the game where the Paragon and Renegade responses were the exact same wording on screen, but one resulted in you comforting someone and the other had you beating them mercilessly.

Really? When? I've played through ME1 about 8 times and ME 3 times and I honestly can't recall any part like that.

This is detracts from character interaction and immersion because:
- You don't really know what your character is going to say or do. This rip the characterization away from the player and further distances them from the Role-PLaying aspect of an RPG

Very occasionally I think "No that's not really what I wanted you to do" but we're talking maybe twice in a 40 hour game.

- You don't know how your character will react and this can result in you needing to restart saves in order to "fix" an action that you didn't actually intend to do.

Which has been an irritating staple of RPG games since the beginning. This has happened to me many many times in RPGs with the traditional list of choices dialogue system and isn't made any better or worse by the conversation wheel.

Yes, I realize they want to put a "mood" indicator next to the words, but that doesn't fix what is flawed with the conversation wheel. The Mass Effect team's solution made it just as easy for you to know what response was "good" or "bad" and it does not help. One of the more startling parts of ME2 was when you flat-out murder someone when you thought you were simply going to incapacitate him. It's very jarring when your righteous and good character suddenly just butchers a character because you didn't know what their REAL response would be in comparison with the 2-word paraphrase.

Once again, I don't recall any point in ME2 where the Paragon choice resulted in you butchering a character. As far as I can recall, the option is often paraphrased to "Kill him." in Mass Effect games, which is pretty clear.

Worst of all, it severely limits the number of responses that can even be displayed on-screen at a time, thus limiting the possible ways that you even can respond. How many Dragon Age conversations had half a dozen to a dozen responses? Quite a few, especially the more important conversations. You never felt like you were just flipping a coin between 1-3 responses that were "good bad and neutral" you were actually steering your character's personality via many responses that, while similar, were subtlely (or blatantly) different.

I'd have to boot the game up and check but I'd say the majority of DA conversations have no more than 6 choices (bear in mind I'm pretty sure DAO actually had a conversation wheel quite late into it's development). And if there are more than 6 choices there will probably be only 5 important plot changing options and 5 tell me more options, which the wheel is perfectly capable of rendering.

To summarize, the conversation wheel
-limits the number of possible responses

Too many choices can be overwhelming anyway.

-detracts from character immersion

I'd argue no more than in any other RPG.

-limits on-screen words and results in paraphrasing that never fully reflects what your character will say or do, resulting in you throwing the dice whenever you pick a response.

Once or twice out of over a thousand options.

-limits the emotional range of the main character

When you can only be good bad or in-between you will never have anything more than a character who behaves in extremes.

In the case of Mass Effect (which is built around a morality system) yes but Dragon Age has no morality system, meaning Bioware will have to come up with different ways of utilising the system. I'm sure they're not going to tack on a Paragon Renegade meter just to make the conversation wheel work in the same way it does in ME.

Personally I'm actually against the conversation wheel, but that's more because I feel it's a bit too console-y, not because of the actual mechanics.

[Addai]

uberdowzen wrote...

No matter how powerful your imagination is (and despite your character not actually voicing the lines) your character always has a pre defined tone. Example:

Generic Knight Character: ...and then the Hurlock killed the rest of my family and I became depressed and joined your party.

(Dialogue Option): Awww, you poor thing!

Say you pick that dialogue option. Is your character being sarcastic or does s/he honestly feel sorry for the generic Knight? There is no way of affecting how your character makes this line sound, the Generic Knight character will either be offended or will thank you for your sympathy.

I know that many of you out there in gameland disagree, but it makes a difference that I don't ever hear that tone voiced.  If the NPC reacts in a way I don't expect, that adds to realism, because in life people misunderstand you sometimes.

So no, my dialogue choice does not have a pre-defined tone.  The writer may have a set idea in mind of the tone and intent of a particular line of dialogue, but I'm still free to imagine it delivered how I want.  I don't have to listen to Jennifer Hale's or Corinne Kempa's voice and pretend that that is my character speaking.

[Addai]

uberdowzen wrote...

In the case of Mass Effect (which is built around a morality system) yes but Dragon Age has no morality system, meaning Bioware will have to come up with different ways of utilising the system. I'm sure they're not going to tack on a Paragon Renegade meter just to make the conversation wheel work in the same way it does in ME.

Personally I'm actually against the conversation wheel, but that's more because I feel it's a bit too console-y, not because of the actual mechanics.

They've said that there won't be a Mass Effect morality system, and that the intent behind the response will be indicated by an icon.  Like a fist to show the response is likely to end in a dust-up.  Or a heart for kissyface.  Or whatever.

And we're not allowed to call that "dumbing down." 

[AntiChri5]

Addai67 wrote...

uberdowzen wrote...

No matter how powerful your imagination is (and despite your character not actually voicing the lines) your character always has a pre defined tone. Example:

Generic Knight Character: ...and then the Hurlock killed the rest of my family and I became depressed and joined your party.

(Dialogue Option): Awww, you poor thing!

Say you pick that dialogue option. Is your character being sarcastic or does s/he honestly feel sorry for the generic Knight? There is no way of affecting how your character makes this line sound, the Generic Knight character will either be offended or will thank you for your sympathy.

I know that many of you out there in gameland disagree, but it makes a difference that I don't ever hear that tone voiced.  If the NPC reacts in a way I don't expect, that adds to realism, because in life people misunderstand you sometimes.

So no, my dialogue choice does not have a pre-defined tone.  The writer may have a set idea in mind of the tone and intent of a particular line of dialogue, but I'm still free to imagine it delivered how I want.  I don't have to listen to Jennifer Hale's or Corinne Kempa's voice and pretend that that is my character speaking.

At this point, you are just deluding yourself.