468 réponses à ce sujet

[thebrah]

JemyM wrote...

Having not played that many RPG's during the past years, but actually having played both ME and ME2, I was quite amazed over how engaging I found the dialogue in DA:O to be. I have definitely missed the depth that is possible in dialogue of the old style, and I hadn't realized before just how much the dialogue wheel remove that. I had hoped that the wheel had kept itself to, and died with the ME series, not that it would begin to infest other titles.

I think the main advantage with traditional dialogue is that it can be adapted into subtle different ways to approach the unique encounter the PC may be facing. The dialogue wheel disconnected me from feeling engaged in the dialogue. It simply wasn't me talking anymore and I stopped to listen to what people were saying and got preoccupied with pumping directions on the wheel.

the dialogue wheel makes it so you don't have to go through too much of bioware's ****ty writing.

[JemyM]

the dialogue wheel makes it so you don't have to go through too much of bioware's ****ty writing.

There's another option... do not play anything from Bioware. There's some really brilliant dialogue in other popular games;

I saw a mudcrab yesterday!
- Rumours?
- Goodbye

[SoR82]

I must admit i was tempted to bang my head on the wall when i saw they are using that stupid wheel.



If i want to flirt with someone I damn well will, if i choose "i just wanted to talk" i dont not expect my character to proceed to flirt. Suprisingly enough i chose I wanted to talk and guess waht! I wanted to talk

[BP20125810]

Can anyone coment if the symbol system of dialog will carry over to other Bioware games (ME3).

[Everwarden]

Wynne wrote...

The only thing I care about is that they do better than ME and Alpha Protocol in terms of letting you know what the hell you are actually about to say. If they can summarize it properly, then I am happy with it.
 

That's my biggest concern. In Mass Effect it annoyed me that I felt like I had almost no control over the conversation, almost like a God prodding Shephard to say something 'to the effect of' what I wanted rather than actually playing the part of Shephard. I don't want to roleplay a third party watching, I want to actually play the main character and have him/her speak as directed. If Bioware implements the wheel well (not like in Mass Effect), it won't matter or be a problem at all for me.

My other concern is that there is likely only going to be one voice actor for the male and female Hawke, so two total. A mage and a warrior making a threat don't sound the same, but sadly I think we're going to be stuck with the same voice for both a mage or a warrior.

[UltimoCrofto]

Everwarden wrote...

My other concern is that there is likely only going to be one voice actor for the male and female Hawke, so two total. A mage and a warrior making a threat don't sound the same, but sadly I think we're going to be stuck with the same voice for both a mage or a warrior.

That's the thing see; in Mass Effect I essentially had to have a character looking like the default Shepard, because otherwise the voice doesn't match. This is especially noticeable if you make a character that isn't Caucasian.

Customisation essentially gets striped away, and having this Mass Effect dialogue system is a pretty big warning sign that tells me that moulding my character to my liking isn't doable. If you're into the whole RPing/character backstory thing then good luck with DA2.

Just waiting for confirmation of multiplayer now; Team slayer on Denerim!

[Biokotor]

yea after they finish making the game's realm their probably make it into a MMORPG <-waste of time

and **** summarizing what i want to say & putting it in a stupid ****ing wheel. i wanna pick exactly what i think is best & let my imagination run wild as i think im the one saying it & not my character.

don't even think i wanna play DA2 if they do that. it'll be just as **** as ME2

[Blessed Silence]

Hasn't this thread and topic been done already?



Yeah it has ...

[MortalEngines]

I've read through nearly all this thread (strangely enough I found it intriguing to learn how some people see rpgs and how people's playing styles differ) though I stopped at page 13 out of the sake of avoiding reading the repetition of arguments. But I'm going to say it straight, the problem with the 'paraphrasing' is NOT the wheel. The design and initial idea of it is solid, there is no reason why a wheel that constructed correctly cannot work well.

I understand the issue of the paraphrasing being misleading and resulted in an action you did not desire or expect but that has nothing to do with the game mechanic, it's all about the writers. The wheel itself is fine, but if the writer puts a misleading paraphrase (for instance 'I'm not continuing this conversation' results in punching some one in the face), it's the writer's fault for making the paraphrasing misleading.

This WHOLE issue would be hopefully avoided if Bioware pulls off the icon system correctly. The icons will allow you to understand what sort of comment it is and how it will be delivered (i.e if you say a comment like 'Oh that sounds good' but it has a icon representing sarcasm next to it, you will now it's a sarcastic comment and thus you can get the general gist and intent of it).

To those who say that the NPC reaction isn't what they wanted because of the paraphrase choice, that again has nothing to do with the wheel. Just because you say something 'nice' or 'ironic' doesn't mean that the character will respond well to it. The whole point of dialogue systems is you know what YOU are saying but you don't know how the NPC is going to respond.

End of the day, it's all about the writers, the wheel system is entirely irrelevant, all it does it set out a way of laying out the paraphrasing nothing else. It doesn't force for there to be less word (it has the same limit as DA:O) nor does it effect player immersion (that is effected by the way you approach the game).

I find it sort of ridiculous that an argument has come up about this, DA2's wheel system is not like ME/ME2's, it does not rely on a Paragon/Renegade system and nor will it be misleading (thanks to the icon system). The only thing it will share is the appearance similarities.

Why people need the whole sentence there is beyond me, it's going to be said by the VO anyway there is no need to read it before hand, only to listen to the VO say it. If you want that, then Bioware might as well save money and have no VO at all. If your only argument against the wheel system is that the paraphrasing is misleading then complain about the writing, not the game mechanic which technically should not cause misunderstanding.

For those who STILL don't get what I mean. The paraphrasing it a tool, simple as, it's a tool to get the player to select their dialogue choice without having to read the whole sentence, it's purpose is to give the intent and tone of the response without bombarding the player with lines and lines of text. It's like having a warning sign, the sign won't say 'Stay away from here because if you come there will be an angry farmer who will shoot you from coming to close' it will say 'Stay Away from danger of being Shot', it doesn't explain the whole situation but gives you enough information to make a intelligent choice, go into the danger zone or stay away.

Also, to those who are having the 'Cinematic' v.s 'Literacy' argument, take it else where, it completely goes off topic in this thread, this is complaining about the wheel system, not the direction and lay out of the whole RP.

This reply was WAY to late but oh well, I put my point out there.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 28 août 2010 - 02:38 .

[Chairon de Celeste]

I just hope the keyboard support for dialog wheel

answers will be added for the pc version

(keys 1 - 5 optional instead of clicking the dialog wheel).

[Dr. wonderful]

Victor Wachter wrote...

HemisH wrote...

But this is a game where in a game I want to control what my character does or say... If I wanted to watch and be surprised at what the main character would do, I would watch a movie.

Er, you kinda missed my point. I'm not arguing the virtue of one system or the other. Just saying that the wheel in the system we're developing will display intent, not consequence. You can choose a peaceful intent, but the character you're talking to might stab you anyway.

...Then why not just get to cracking the skulls as they say? it will saved trouble and people will get some fun.

Modifié par Dr. wonderful, 28 août 2010 - 03:36 .

[Dr. wonderful]

MortalEngines wrote...

 I put my point out there.

And it was a mighty fine point.

[Dicetrain]

Honestly, I have never experienced any problems with it. In Origins I had to reload several times because even with a full comment there, the NPCs took it under a wildly different context than I intended. That goes not just for nice vs mean, but for investigative vs conclusion and advancement. Nothing is more disruptive than simply wanting to know more about the situation or the other person and accidentally stumbling out of a conversation they won't repeat. In Mass Effect I was never surprised by the results I guided Shepard to find.

I suppose a full comment with intent-context icon system would be a fine, but I love, love, love the cinematic style and flow BioWare has been developing and the wheel style greatly enhances it.

[17thknight]

Dicetrain wrote...

I suppose a full comment with intent-context icon system would be a fine, but I love, love, love the cinematic style and flow BioWare has been developing and the wheel style greatly enhances it.

You sicken me. Stay away from RPG's, they aren't for you.

[Naitaka]

Dicetrain wrote...

Honestly, I have never experienced any problems with it. In Origins I had to reload several times because even with a full comment there, the NPCs took it under a wildly different context than I intended. That goes not just for nice vs mean, but for investigative vs conclusion and advancement. Nothing is more disruptive than simply wanting to know more about the situation or the other person and accidentally stumbling out of a conversation they won't repeat. In Mass Effect I was never surprised by the results I guided Shepard to find.

I suppose a full comment with intent-context icon system would be a fine, but I love, love, love the cinematic style and flow BioWare has been developing and the wheel style greatly enhances it.

Sorry your post is too long, can you do it with intent icon and paraphrase? My meager brain cannot comprehend so muc...what was I saying again? Oh your post is too...umm...anyway, yes, cinematic please.

[Edli]

Dicetrain wrote...

Honestly, I have never experienced any problems with it. In Origins I had to reload several times because even with a full comment there, the NPCs took it under a wildly different context than I intended. That goes not just for nice vs mean, but for investigative vs conclusion and advancement. Nothing is more disruptive than simply wanting to know more about the situation or the other person and accidentally stumbling out of a conversation they won't repeat..

But that's exactly the reason why I'm against the wheel. In DA:O you didn't knew how Sten would react to what you'd say in the beginning. I would pick a line I would say and if Sten agrees fine if not well that's too bad. I create a personality for my characters and some of the companions love it, others hate it. That's character relationship for you. You're not suposed to be the love buddy of everyone. If you however wanted to be a friend of Sten, you needed to learn more about him, to understand his point of view. You know like in real life, that's how you create relationships.
But now you already know what makes one happy or angry, it doesn't require any effort from you anymore. It's so simplistic is like it's made for little kids.

[Imryll]

Everwarden wrote...
In Mass Effect it annoyed me that I felt like I had almost no control over the conversation, almost like a God prodding Shephard to say something 'to the effect of' what I wanted rather than actually playing the part of Shephard

I think that's the heart of the matter for me. I once read a post that said that Bioware games were for folks who wanted the devs to tell them a story and that Bethesda games were for folks who wanted to tell themselves stories. Unfortunately, with DAII Bioware appears to have crossed a line where their games are no longer "for me." Partly, the new combat style, but mostly the conversation wheel--and reports of innuendo-laden party chat. When I played the demo, I found being surprised by what my character would say totally jarring. I understand that some really like a cinematic experience, but for me much of the appeal of single-player RPGs lies in playing my character, either alone or in the company of congenial NPCs.

I'm a little disappointed that I won't be buying DA II anytime soon, but not angry or even really upset. The Bioware devs have said that they've "moved on" and so have I. 

[Mr. Gerbz]

Dicetrain wrote...

Honestly, I have never experienced any problems with it. In Origins I had to reload several times because even with a full comment there, the NPCs took it under a wildly different context than I intended. That goes not just for nice vs mean, but for investigative vs conclusion and advancement. Nothing is more disruptive than simply wanting to know more about the situation or the other person and accidentally stumbling out of a conversation they won't repeat. In Mass Effect I was never surprised by the results I guided Shepard to find.

I suppose a full comment with intent-context icon system would be a fine, but I love, love, love the cinematic style and flow BioWare has been developing and the wheel style greatly enhances it.

You had to revive a 6 months old topic for this?

[Alexus_VG]

Old topic or not, seeing as it's back up again I'm going to go ahead and say I agree with the OP completly. The wheel system of dialog has completly repulsed me in all the games it was implemented in and it severly ruins the immersion value of the interaction. Yes it does lend itself better to the voiced protagonist but imo that was also a mistake. I didn't go and complain about this on the ME forums because well ME was just that kind of game. More action with limited RPG elements so I hardly expected more. But seeing it introduced in the DA series was extremly disappointing. As so many have pointed out before me we use to feel like everyone had their type of RPG before, now it's just ME and ME fantasy edition.