468 réponses à ce sujet

[orpheus333]

Perhaps a conversation wheel that provides the player with short paraphrases (maybe even approaches to a conversation rather than a paraphrase similar to Alpha Protocol which I actually prefer) and have the actual vocal response as a roll over tool-tip. Simple, effective and the best of both worlds if its switch-able in the options. They need this information already for subtitling, so it shouldn't take up many more man-hours.

Modifié par andyr1986, 14 juillet 2010 - 10:29 .

[Sirsmirkalot]

Keep the conversation wheel for Mass Effect, but keep it out of Dragon Age. It was bad enough to choose the "professional" approach in Alpha Protocol to then end up with "my" character literally saying "**** you Darcy". I want to know what I'm going to say.

It's not more "realistic", unless you have a condition that prevents you from controling your words, and it isn't faster, since you still need to pay attention to what your character actually says after you've made your choice.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 14 juillet 2010 - 10:34 .

[Jigero]

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

It's not more "realistic", unless you have a condition that prevents you from controling your words, and it isn't faster, since you still need to pay attention to what your character actually says after you've made your choice.

not really I can leave the wheel in the upper right corner and clicking the same opitinon and know what I'm gonna say is not gonna ****** anyone off. Until I see blue text then I just click that.

[Narreneth]

17thknight wrote...

Zerthus wrote...

It doesn't limit the possible responses. I specifically remember reading in one of the threads, a dev mentioning that despite the wheel they're still working with 6 options.
If I had a link to this statement I would post it, but I don't remember in which thread it was stated.

And yet that's still less than we had in Dragon Age. The possible nuance of the responses is limited by the wheel, as are the on-screen words. It inevitably results in severe paraphrasing and numerous "extreme" responses of pure good or pure evil . The Game Informer screenshots show the paraphrasing is already present.

You seriously need to learn to count.  There's never a situation where you pick through 15 possible responses.  Generally you have 3-4.  5-6 being the most you ever see.

DAO already had the "snarky" comment, the "evil" comment, etc they were just written word for word.  WIth the paraphrasing you have a visual cue system to tell you whether the comment is angry or kind or what have you.

Every point you've made is completely invalid because you have demonstrated you don't understand how the system is going to work.

Modifié par Narreneth, 14 juillet 2010 - 10:58 .

[soteria]

Can anyone PLEASE post some examples of someone "accidentally" clicking on a response which results in someone being punched.

As you said, the choices are obvious blue-good, red-evil, so anyone who "accidentally" punches someone is a moron.

Gladly. The reporter you talk to in CSec outside the elevator: you can answer her all questions, and then choose either the bottom left or top left intimidate/persuade option if you have the points at the end. Or, at any time you can politely end the conversation (top right) or rudely end the conversation (bottom right). I believe the blurb was, "We're through here," or something like that--and you deck her. And it was awesome. Of course, when I met her in ME2, I answered about two questions before punching her out again... I eagerly await meeting her in ME3.

[Narreneth]

In reference to your earlier crap about Mass Effect's investigation system, yes, you do indeed have to decide if your character is the type of person to investigate a situation or make a decision instantaneously.



That said, quit comparing the games. They are not the same. They will not be the same. What is true in Mass Effect is not true in Dragon Age. Just because the wheel is in Mass Effect doesn't mean you can judge the entire game like it is Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Dragon Age 2. There are also bad guys in Mario. HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

[AntiChri5]

soteria wrote...

Can anyone PLEASE post some examples of someone "accidentally" clicking on a response which results in someone being punched.
As you said, the choices are obvious blue-good, red-evil, so anyone who "accidentally" punches someone is a moron.

Gladly. The reporter you talk to in CSec outside the elevator: you can answer her all questions, and then choose either the bottom left or top left intimidate/persuade option if you have the points at the end. Or, at any time you can politely end the conversation (top right) or rudely end the conversation (bottom right). I believe the blurb was, "We're through here," or something like that--and you deck her. And it was awesome. Of course, when I met her in ME2, I answered about two questions before punching her out again... I eagerly await meeting her in ME3.

Her name is Kahlisah Al-Jilani and i have had enough of her snide insinuations and disengenous assertions.

[soteria]

AlanC9 wrote...

Just to be clear, I am absolutely not defending ME2's implementation of Persuade and Intimidate, which really does penalize you for not going all out Paragon or Renegade. I think it's Bio's second-worst design decision of all time, actually. But that's a problem with the skill implementation, not the dialog wheel itself. In ME1 you can make any Charm check in the game without being a Paragon.

Now I'm curious. What was their worst design decision of all time, then?

What you actually choose when meeting Cailan at Ostagar is between

*snip*

All of these are short enough to fit on the wheel as is.

Unfortunately, they still won't do it. The issue isn't whether the options will fit, it's that they don't want to bore us by displaying the same text we're about to hear. Some larger conversations wouldn't fit (for example, the intimidate/persuade options at the conclusion for Tali's personal quest in ME2 are pretty long), but mostly they're not concerned about what fits or doesn't.

17thknight wrote...

That's NOT what most players want to do, that's what most players were forced to do by Mass Effect. Hell, I didn't want to do it, but I had to. I often picked choices I didn't want, or ignored ones that I did want, specifically to advance the paragon meter.

I didn't. I ended ME around 80% renegade and 50% paragon. Sometimes I made paragon choices, sometimes renegade, sometimes neutral, depending on what best matched my character concept. I wasn't racist, for example, because I figured the aliens would be useful. I didn't kill all the colonists once I figured out using the grenades to knock people out was far more efficient than killing them. If you felt like you had to go 100% paragon or renegade in ME, that's your problem.

I have to disagree with AlanC9 and say that ME2 was basically the same. In ME, you needed paragon/renegade points to unlock the skills. In ME2, they just eliminated the skill cost. It's more obvious, but at the heart it's the same issue, and it is poor design, imo. It still wasn't enough to make me feel like I "had" to go 100% either way. My renegade character ended at least three companion quests with a paragon choice for various reasons. I'll emphasize that the alignment system, tied in with intimidate/persuade, was an issue in both Mass Effect games. That has nothing to do with the dialogue wheel, and it has even less to do with Dragon Age. Persuade/Intimidate is based off strength, cunning, and skill points. There's not even an alignment system. I don't even know why you're using that as an argument.

[zahra]

Where are the screenshots of the dialog wheel in DA2? I don't see them on the Game Informer page.

[AlanC9]

soteria wrote...

Now I'm curious. What was their worst design decision of all time, then?

The lack of a real party in NWN1's OC. Not only did this throw out much of the NPC interaction, which is one of the more popular features of NWN2, but it was something of an assault on the D&D ruleset itself. The design goal of the system has always been to force cooperative multiplayer by requiring all the different classes, or at least the core four, to be present in the party.

Unfortunately, they still won't do it. The issue isn't whether the options will fit, it's that they don't want to bore us by displaying the same text we're about to hear. Some larger conversations wouldn't fit (for example, the intimidate/persuade options at the conclusion for Tali's personal quest in ME2 are pretty long), but mostly they're not concerned about what fits or doesn't.

Shouldn't have shorthanded that ; an amusing mistake given the context. Where I was going with that is that the existing DA dialog options aren't particularly subtle or very long. If anything, this conversation would gain subtlety in the ME system.

Bio should probably not make it a hard-and-fast rule to have more dialog than fits on the wheel. Sometimes the short answer is all you need, and there's no need to expand text beyond that just for the sake of having more talk.

I have to disagree with AlanC9 and say that ME2 was basically the same. In ME, you needed paragon/renegade points to unlock the skills. In ME2, they just eliminated the skill cost. It's more obvious, but at the heart it's the same issue, and it is poor design, imo. It still wasn't enough to make me feel like I "had" to go 100% either way.

I completely forgot about that. I think it's because the playstyle effects are different.  If I put points into Charm I'm going to use the skill rather than just throw away the points. Since using the skill will generate more Paragon points, I'll probably unlock more Charm levels in the ordinary course of play. I can't recall actually hitting the locks myself.

[17thknight]

AlanC9 wrote...

Shouldn't have shorthanded that ; an amusing mistake given the context. Where I was going with that is that the existing DA dialog options aren't particularly subtle or very long. If anything, this conversation would gain subtlety in the ME system.

Bio should probably not make it a hard-and-fast rule to have more dialog than fits on the wheel. Sometimes the short answer is all you need, and there's no need to expand text beyond that just for the sake of having more talk.

That's silly. There's no possible way that less words leads to more subtlety. It just leads to more confusion on the part of the player, who will have absolutely no idea what their character is about to say or do, just like in Mass Effect, and it will be loathed for the exact same reason.

There is no subtlety in a phrase 2-3 words long that say "Well that's bad." or "Let's get him!" or "Hi." 

They NEED to include an option that expands the text to every single word that is about to be spoken.

[Inverness Moon]

Dialogue wheel provides 6 options, The dialogue choices in DAO had 6 options at most, don't see the difference.

The paraphrasing on the dialogue wheel is necessary with a voiced character and BioWare has improved the wheel by providing that symbol that will show you the intent of the different choices so you know what to expect.

17thknight wrote...

It just leads to more confusion on the part of the player, who will have absolutely no idea what their character is about to say or do, just like in Mass Effect, and it will be loathed for the exact same reason.

Nonsense. BioWare already announced that unlike in Mass Effect they would also indicate the intention behind the different dialogue options available to you. This is an improvement on the system to alleviate the problem of people not getting what the expect from the paraphrasing. Claiming that players will have absolutely no idea what there character is about to say is completely untrue.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:08 .

[OneForTheDitch]

17thknight wrote...


In the Game Informer article that shows the wheel the choices are "I'm right beside you." "Neither can they." and "Then we fight."

There is no indicator of "good bad or neutral"  by any of them. There aren't colored differently. How on Earth do you know what your character will do or say based on itty bitty blurbs like that? 

Sorry, I know I'm a bit late to the game, but I had to point out your fallacy here. I'm looking at the Game Informer article right now, and in the screenshot you pointed out the lower right option of "Then we fight" is highlighted. In the center of the wheel is a CLEARLY VISIBLE red fist. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but that seems like a pretty good indication of intent.

Modifié par OneForTheDitch, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:57 .

[OneForTheDitch]

Narreneth wrote...

HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

You, sir, win. I'm not sure what you've won, but you have indeed won it.

[Jimbe2693]

I want full-text, maybe they'll make this optional? I sure hope so

[El Codge]

I prefer the paraphrasing and the wheel and that's coming from someone who loved Planescape.



In DA, i'd not bother even looking at the cutscenes during dialog - simply at the dialog itself. I'd skip through at my own pace, which was hell of a lot quicker than the scene was showing.



For Mass Effect (and 2), less intial reading meant I could spend the time watching the cutscene and when interaction was needed, I could do it swifty.



Using DAs conversation style would be a backward step imo. Rather than crying "OMG CONVERSATION WHEEL", try posting on how you'd improve it.

[Sique Foque]

Well despite all the unpleasant surprises with the dialogue wheel und not to undermine your argument, the outcome can still be funny as hell

Modifié par Sique Foque, 15 juillet 2010 - 01:22 .

[Iokastos]

Sique Foque wrote...

Well despite all the unpleasant surprises with the dialogue wheel und not to undermine your argument, the outcome can be still funny as hell

lmao

[Wrathra]

Vulee94 wrote...

Can anyone PLEASE post some examples of someone "accidentally" clicking on a response which results in someone being punched.
As you said, the choices are obvious blue-good, red-evil, so anyone who "accidentally" punches someone is a moron.

The first conversation with that reporter who railroads you in ME1, Bin-Jilani or whatever her name is.  The bottom left response just said something about ending the interview, so I figured Shepard would just be pissy and storm off. Instead, she punched the reporter in the face. That wasn't the least bit obvious.

Was funny, but totally unexpected.

Modifié par Wrathra, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:19 .

[Heimdall]

Sometimes the dialogue options in Mass Effect can be bit polar extreme and limited but I don't think it will be like that in DA2 as DA2 is not bound to the paragon renegade system.

[triggerhappy456]

where are there two different forums discussing the exact same thing

and i say here what i said on the other forum, the symbols for sarcasm etc will remove the only complaint i ever had with the wheel

and are people honestly saying they would like to read a whole response, then hear it repeated by people?

[Rpgsrock]

OP, your post is true for ME, but you are wrong about DA2.

On the wheel they added emotions as well as the paraphrased sentence. So you will know in what manner your saying it.



Ex. Hi (with a blue dot under it meaning kind), "hello good friend" or even Hi (with a red dot under it meaning mean) "hey ***hole" *stab*

[Addai]

Narreneth wrote...
That said, quit comparing the games. They are not the same. They will not be the same. What is true in Mass Effect is not true in Dragon Age. Just because the wheel is in Mass Effect doesn't mean you can judge the entire game like it is Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Dragon Age 2. There are also bad guys in Mario. HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

Have the devs made statements comparing their changes in DA2 to Mario?  No?

Logic fail.

[Addai]

El Codge wrote...

Using DAs conversation style would be a backward step imo. Rather than crying "OMG CONVERSATION WHEEL", try posting on how you'd improve it.

The problem in my view is not the wheel vs. the tree but the fact that the whole issue is being brought about by a voiced PC.  The only reason we're going to be stuck with a paraphrase is because we have to sit and listen to what our PC is going to say.  The very reason d'etre of the system is to remove the player from the PC and make the voice actor's interpretation paramount.

[mjboldy]

"Information from the latest issue of Game Informer has begin appearing online, and mentions that Dragon Age 2 is doing away with the classic "tree" dialogue system, where you're presented with lines of text that you select, and replacing it with Mass Effect's "wheel", which uses intent as a means of generating almost "real-time" conversations. There's a slight change, though; rather than basing your answers on their position on the wheel, the "hub" will now clearly indicate what tone your response will be; anger, flirting, etc."



http://kotaku.com/55...fects-footsteps