468 réponses à ce sujet

[DanteCousland]

You should check out my topic on how it helps those with aspergers. So no its not flawed, maybe for you but for me it helps...

[In Exile]

Malanek999 wrote...
Off the top of my head, in ME2 when resolving the dispute between the quarian and elcor shopkeepers, the paragon response to the elcor is threatening to break his knees unless he leaves the quarian alone. This seems more what the renegade should be. However the renegade is even worse, it convinces the elcor to permanently and illegally shut down the quarian. This is incosistant with other renegade choices. One moment you are completely against corruption, the next moment you are endorsing it. Now the problem is that none of these outcomes were at all clear from 2 or 3 word blurbs on the dialagoue wheel. This conversation wasn't unique, there were plenty of them.

That's bad writing. ME2 had this really weird system where basically each writer had characters and planets. So different people wrote Shepard. Which meant, great, now we've got 12 cooks in the kitchen and each person has a different take on what it means to charm, what it means to intimidate, etc. Not all the writers had written RPGs before (as I recall) and not all the writers felt comfortable writing the full spectrum of traits. Patrick Weekes, I believe, talked about how he finds violent "evil" characters to be impossible for him to write. He said he couldn't write an assassin who kills for joy well, but could write one who is a kind of... ardent follower of a moral code taken to an extreme (I kill them because they need to die, sort of thing).

So while I agree with you over the particular instance, IMO that's not an issue related to the dialogue wheel but to the fact the character is broken because of inconsistent writing by different people. The same thing could happen in a non-dialogue wheel non-VO game if 12 different people wrote the Warden's line's in DA:O.

[Group Theory]

I didn't read the whole thread, but one thing that bugs me about the Conversation Wheel is following:



There are three options on the wheel, all with different paraphases, but each selction made Shepard say the same thing. In these cases, the dialog wheel only gave an illusion of having multiple dialog selections. The time this bugged me the most was in Mass Effect 1, after Udina locked down the Normandy. When you finished talking to the Council/Udina, the dialog wheel popped up to say something. No matter which option you picked, Shepard always said "Nobody stabs me in the back Udina. Nobody."

[Narreneth]

Addai67 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...
That said, quit comparing the games. They are not the same. They will not be the same. What is true in Mass Effect is not true in Dragon Age. Just because the wheel is in Mass Effect doesn't mean you can judge the entire game like it is Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Dragon Age 2. There are also bad guys in Mario. HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

Have the devs made statements comparing their changes in DA2 to Mario?  No?

Logic fail.

I told you if you were going to be ****y save it for your husband.  Go back to ignoring my posts 'cause I'm mean to you.

The logic has nothing to do with what the developers said, you heel.  The logic is that the people (like yourself) who are needlessly ****ing about the dialogue system making DA2 exactly like Mass Effect are taking things that two games have in common and asserting that those two games are now the same game.  The thing is, Dragon Age has things in common with other games too, yet you're choosing to ignore them to enable your argument's bull****. 

If you don't want to buy DA2, don't.  Shut up and quit posting.  You don't have to reiterate forty different ways you aren't intending to buy it.

[triggerhappy456]

no offence intended addai, but you just got owned

[Narreneth]

Group Theory wrote...
 The time this bugged me the most was in Mass Effect 1, after Udina locked down the Normandy. When you finished talking to the Council/Udina, the dialog wheel popped up to say something. No matter which option you picked, Shepard always said "Nobody stabs me in the back Udina. Nobody."

No.  Shepard said other things at this point.

[CybAnt1]

Voice acting doesn't require a wheel.



Leliana was voiced as the protagonist in Leliana's Song, and yet there were menus of choices.



Granted, it worked much the same; paraphrases were on the menu, and longer sentences were what were actually uttered. And yes, I did have "huh?" moments when Leliana said something that seemed radically different from the paraphrase I picked.



I also seemed to notice -- could be wrong -- there were always three and only three choices on the menu. Kinda like ... paragon, neutral, renegade.



Whatever. In a sense, people are right. Even without the wheel, conversation in DA2 would be likely to be like the menus for Leliana's Song: short, with paraphrases.



The real problem is going to a voiced protagonist. No matter what solution they came up with, it shifts the way you role play the character, moving it, as BIO SAID THEMSELVES, to more of a third person (watching Hawke say the lines) rather than a first person perspective (being Hawke doing the saying).



In the end, the wheel is just a symptom of a larger design decision. Which I doubt they will change.

[Group Theory]

Narreneth wrote...

Group Theory wrote...
 The time this bugged me the most was in Mass Effect 1, after Udina locked down the Normandy. When you finished talking to the Council/Udina, the dialog wheel popped up to say something. No matter which option you picked, Shepard always said "Nobody stabs me in the back Udina. Nobody."

No.  Shepard said other things at this point.

Did he really? What else did Shepard say? I only remember him saying that.

[KLUME777]

Daewan wrote...

And your suggestion to improve this, keeping in mind that they have already chosen to go with full voice for the main character, would be....?
Don't get me wrong - I hate the wheel for Dragon Age, and preferred the silent protagonist. I am just sick of people restating the obvious over and over again without making any valid suggestions on how to fix it.

Easy - just get rid of the VO and have a silent protagonist.

[Heimdall]

Narreneth wrote...

Group Theory wrote...
 The time this bugged me the most was in Mass Effect 1, after Udina locked down the Normandy. When you finished talking to the Council/Udina, the dialog wheel popped up to say something. No matter which option you picked, Shepard always said "Nobody stabs me in the back Udina. Nobody."

No.  Shepard said other things at this point.

Yes he did say other things.  Though I will say I recall several points in ME1 where two options gave the same spoken line.  They were never the only options though and I never encountered that in ME2.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:21 .

[Narreneth]

Group Theory wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Group Theory wrote...
 The time this bugged me the most was in Mass Effect 1, after Udina locked down the Normandy. When you finished talking to the Council/Udina, the dialog wheel popped up to say something. No matter which option you picked, Shepard always said "Nobody stabs me in the back Udina. Nobody."

No.  Shepard said other things at this point.

Did he really? What else did Shepard say? I only remember him saying that.

To be honest with you I don't recall what it was verbatim because it's been so long since I've played through ME1; however, I can say with certainty that my Shepard never said that.  That's all I can give you right now, though.  I'd do better if I could.

[In Exile]

Group Theory wrote...

I didn't read the whole thread, but one thing that bugs me about the Conversation Wheel is following:

There are three options on the wheel, all with different paraphases, but each selction made Shepard say the same thing. In these cases, the dialog wheel only gave an illusion of having multiple dialog selections. The time this bugged me the most was in Mass Effect 1, after Udina locked down the Normandy. When you finished talking to the Council/Udina, the dialog wheel popped up to say something. No matter which option you picked, Shepard always said "Nobody stabs me in the back Udina. Nobody."

That didn't bother me as much as the fact that whenever they do this, it's to make Shepard a frothing at the mouth loon. Like in the original Council scene. Personally, I agreed with the Council. We had no evidence and paranoid dream is not evidence. They seemed pretty reasonable about the whole deal. But no, Shepard has to froth at the mouth hardcore about how the fact he dreamed synthetics killed people after being in a warzone seeing synthetics killing people is not acceptable evidence in a court of law. Way to make me seen like an unbalanced loon.

[Monstruo696]

This thread is amusing.

[KLUME777]

Narreneth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...
That said, quit comparing the games. They are not the same. They will not be the same. What is true in Mass Effect is not true in Dragon Age. Just because the wheel is in Mass Effect doesn't mean you can judge the entire game like it is Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Dragon Age 2. There are also bad guys in Mario. HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

Have the devs made statements comparing their changes in DA2 to Mario?  No?

Logic fail.

I told you if you were going to be ****y save it for your husband.  Go back to ignoring my posts 'cause I'm mean to you.

The logic has nothing to do with what the developers said, you heel.  The logic is that the people (like yourself) who are needlessly ****ing about the dialogue system making DA2 exactly like Mass Effect are taking things that two games have in common and asserting that those two games are now the same game.  The thing is, Dragon Age has things in common with other games too, yet you're choosing to ignore them to enable your argument's bull****. 

If you don't want to buy DA2, don't.  Shut up and quit posting.  You don't have to reiterate forty different ways you aren't intending to buy it.

First of all, no one is going to be happy twidling thier thumbs when they find out thier (possibly) favourite RPG's sequel completely f**** up, and second of all, DA2 having a VO and dialogue wheel completely changes the type of way the game is and that you play, as it is now a 3rd person narrative instead of 1st. ME is simply the MOST similar game to it now.

[El Codge]

Addai67 wrote...

The problem in my view is not the wheel vs. the tree but the fact that the whole issue is being brought about by a voiced PC.  The only reason we're going to be stuck with a paraphrase is because we have to sit and listen to what our PC is going to say.  The very reason d'etre of the system is to remove the player from the PC and make the voice actor's interpretation paramount.

I think the problem with system used by DA:O (and Jade Empire / KOTOR before it) is that it was a halfway house between trying to be cinematic and trying to be literary.

For example: I really liked the Mass Effect way of doing things as it was pure cinema - yes, you didn't have your internal voice speaking the role but you could kick back and enjoy the work that Bioware put into the scene.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have NWN - a multiple choice text-box on the side of the screen. I also really liked this. As there were no fancy cinematics your imagination did all the acting for you, with the benefit that you could read through the dialog at your own pace.

With KOTOR, Jade Empire and DA:O, I'm not sure what i'm supposed to be doing - reading the text or watching the cinematic. As it turns out, I read the text, chucked the subtitles on and skipped through at my own pace, which somewhat defeated half the point.

Whatever the outcome of all this, I can rest easy knowing the writing team will do a sterling job of it, and I look forward to consuming the script, no matter in what format it's delivered to me.

Modifié par El Codge, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:34 .

[Nighteye2]

17thknight wrote...

AbounI wrote...
Why they choose a wheel of dialogue with paraphrases: click here

Right, we know that, but just because they have a reason for why they chose it does not mean it isn't severely flawed. In fact, they reason they use it IS the reason it is flawed. They use it specifically to limit the words on-screen, but this results in you never knowing what your character will do or say.

Which naturally creates a large mental distance between the PC and the player.

In essence, they're sacrificing immersion in favour of avoiding what would be no more than a minor annoyance. A skippable annoyance, at that, considering how you can skip the speech part using the escape button...

[RevilFox]

Maybe I'm wrong (it's been a while), but isn't the option to punch the reporter in ME1, "Time to shut you up!"? How could anyone possibly think that ment Shepard was just going to walk away? That sounds like (s)he's going to use force to me...

[Narreneth]

KLUME777 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...
That said, quit comparing the games. They are not the same. They will not be the same. What is true in Mass Effect is not true in Dragon Age. Just because the wheel is in Mass Effect doesn't mean you can judge the entire game like it is Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Dragon Age 2. There are also bad guys in Mario. HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

Have the devs made statements comparing their changes in DA2 to Mario?  No?

Logic fail.

I told you if you were going to be ****y save it for your husband.  Go back to ignoring my posts 'cause I'm mean to you.

The logic has nothing to do with what the developers said, you heel.  The logic is that the people (like yourself) who are needlessly ****ing about the dialogue system making DA2 exactly like Mass Effect are taking things that two games have in common and asserting that those two games are now the same game.  The thing is, Dragon Age has things in common with other games too, yet you're choosing to ignore them to enable your argument's bull****. 

If you don't want to buy DA2, don't.  Shut up and quit posting.  You don't have to reiterate forty different ways you aren't intending to buy it.

First of all, no one is going to be happy twidling thier thumbs when they find out thier (possibly) favourite RPG's sequel completely f**** up, and second of all, DA2 having a VO and dialogue wheel completely changes the type of way the game is and that you play, as it is now a 3rd person narrative instead of 1st. ME is simply the MOST similar game to it now.

It is not anymore of a third person narrative than DA:O is.  Why?  You ask?  Because Hawke is your character.  You have much more control over who Hawke is than you have over who Shepard is in Mass Effect.  The BioWare team has said this repeatedly on these forums.  The dialogue wheel may change the way that your choices are delivered, but you will have the same amount of choices as you did in Origins.  Origins already had "snarky" "angry" "flirty" etc options, they were just spelled out for you word for word.  With the choice to add VO work to DA2 it is completely illogical to have the lines spelled out word for word for you because you'd hear what you just read.  It's not a drastic change, you just want it to be a drastic change.  

Dragon Age is a game.  It is not real life.  If you're so invested in the game that you throw rage fits and feel like your world is falling down when a change happens and you aren't able to twiddle your thumbs about it, you may need to examine your life.

[KLUME777]

Narreneth wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...
That said, quit comparing the games. They are not the same. They will not be the same. What is true in Mass Effect is not true in Dragon Age. Just because the wheel is in Mass Effect doesn't mean you can judge the entire game like it is Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Dragon Age 2. There are also bad guys in Mario. HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

Have the devs made statements comparing their changes in DA2 to Mario?  No?

Logic fail.

I told you if you were going to be ****y save it for your husband.  Go back to ignoring my posts 'cause I'm mean to you.

The logic has nothing to do with what the developers said, you heel.  The logic is that the people (like yourself) who are needlessly ****ing about the dialogue system making DA2 exactly like Mass Effect are taking things that two games have in common and asserting that those two games are now the same game.  The thing is, Dragon Age has things in common with other games too, yet you're choosing to ignore them to enable your argument's bull****. 

If you don't want to buy DA2, don't.  Shut up and quit posting.  You don't have to reiterate forty different ways you aren't intending to buy it.

First of all, no one is going to be happy twidling thier thumbs when they find out thier (possibly) favourite RPG's sequel completely f**** up, and second of all, DA2 having a VO and dialogue wheel completely changes the type of way the game is and that you play, as it is now a 3rd person narrative instead of 1st. ME is simply the MOST similar game to it now.

It is not anymore of a third person narrative than DA:O is.  Why?  You ask?  Because Hawke is your character.  You have much more control over who Hawke is than you have over who Shepard is in Mass Effect.  The BioWare team has said this repeatedly on these forums.  The dialogue wheel may change the way that your choices are delivered, but you will have the same amount of choices as you did in Origins.  Origins already had "snarky" "angry" "flirty" etc options, they were just spelled out for you word for word.  With the choice to add VO work to DA2 it is completely illogical to have the lines spelled out word for word for you because you'd hear what you just read.  It's not a drastic change, you just want it to be a drastic change.  

Dragon Age is a game.  It is not real life.  If you're so invested in the game that you throw rage fits and feel like your world is falling down when a change happens and you aren't able to twiddle your thumbs about it, you may need to examine your life.

Fail, Bioware confirmed it is third person narrative, like mass effect, unlike DAO

[Narreneth]

KLUME777 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...
That said, quit comparing the games. They are not the same. They will not be the same. What is true in Mass Effect is not true in Dragon Age. Just because the wheel is in Mass Effect doesn't mean you can judge the entire game like it is Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Dragon Age 2. There are also bad guys in Mario. HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

Have the devs made statements comparing their changes in DA2 to Mario?  No?

Logic fail.

I told you if you were going to be ****y save it for your husband.  Go back to ignoring my posts 'cause I'm mean to you.

The logic has nothing to do with what the developers said, you heel.  The logic is that the people (like yourself) who are needlessly ****ing about the dialogue system making DA2 exactly like Mass Effect are taking things that two games have in common and asserting that those two games are now the same game.  The thing is, Dragon Age has things in common with other games too, yet you're choosing to ignore them to enable your argument's bull****. 

If you don't want to buy DA2, don't.  Shut up and quit posting.  You don't have to reiterate forty different ways you aren't intending to buy it.

First of all, no one is going to be happy twidling thier thumbs when they find out thier (possibly) favourite RPG's sequel completely f**** up, and second of all, DA2 having a VO and dialogue wheel completely changes the type of way the game is and that you play, as it is now a 3rd person narrative instead of 1st. ME is simply the MOST similar game to it now.

It is not anymore of a third person narrative than DA:O is.  Why?  You ask?  Because Hawke is your character.  You have much more control over who Hawke is than you have over who Shepard is in Mass Effect.  The BioWare team has said this repeatedly on these forums.  The dialogue wheel may change the way that your choices are delivered, but you will have the same amount of choices as you did in Origins.  Origins already had "snarky" "angry" "flirty" etc options, they were just spelled out for you word for word.  With the choice to add VO work to DA2 it is completely illogical to have the lines spelled out word for word for you because you'd hear what you just read.  It's not a drastic change, you just want it to be a drastic change.  

Dragon Age is a game.  It is not real life.  If you're so invested in the game that you throw rage fits and feel like your world is falling down when a change happens and you aren't able to twiddle your thumbs about it, you may need to examine your life.

Fail, Bioware confirmed it is third person narrative, like mass effect, unlike DAO

No.

[soteria]

No.

Well, with such a eloquent argument backed up with compelling evidence, who can dispute you?

[In Exile]

Here's an example from Mass Effect about poor paraphrasing relative to the spoken line:



Inquisitor Pailin: So, they finally did it. They've made a human Spectre. I only hope you're better than the one you're sending after.



Shepard: [Paragon]: I strive to be.

Shepard: [Renegade]: Damn right.



In either case, the actual line is: "I'll do everything I can to stop him."



Pailin then says: "That's what worries me."



The entire interaction is set up so Pailin can get his line off. You're a soundboard for him, instead of the other way around. Honestly, I think that was the problem with the wheel. Often they'd try to get the line for the other character. They do this in DA:O a lot too, but it's way more visible when they're using VO for the PC.



Keep in mind I'm a huge fan of VO, and think it improves RP and a whole lot of things a lot of people on this board disagree with. That being said, those paraphrases completely fail to tell you what Shepard actually will do.

[Grommash94]

KLUME777 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

KLUME777 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...
That said, quit comparing the games. They are not the same. They will not be the same. What is true in Mass Effect is not true in Dragon Age. Just because the wheel is in Mass Effect doesn't mean you can judge the entire game like it is Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Mass Effect. There are bad guys in Dragon Age 2. There are also bad guys in Mario. HOLY **** IT'S MARIO AGE EFFECT

Have the devs made statements comparing their changes in DA2 to Mario?  No?

Logic fail.

I told you if you were going to be ****y save it for your husband.  Go back to ignoring my posts 'cause I'm mean to you.

The logic has nothing to do with what the developers said, you heel.  The logic is that the people (like yourself) who are needlessly ****ing about the dialogue system making DA2 exactly like Mass Effect are taking things that two games have in common and asserting that those two games are now the same game.  The thing is, Dragon Age has things in common with other games too, yet you're choosing to ignore them to enable your argument's bull****. 

If you don't want to buy DA2, don't.  Shut up and quit posting.  You don't have to reiterate forty different ways you aren't intending to buy it.

First of all, no one is going to be happy twidling thier thumbs when they find out thier (possibly) favourite RPG's sequel completely f**** up, and second of all, DA2 having a VO and dialogue wheel completely changes the type of way the game is and that you play, as it is now a 3rd person narrative instead of 1st. ME is simply the MOST similar game to it now.

It is not anymore of a third person narrative than DA:O is.  Why?  You ask?  Because Hawke is your character.  You have much more control over who Hawke is than you have over who Shepard is in Mass Effect.  The BioWare team has said this repeatedly on these forums.  The dialogue wheel may change the way that your choices are delivered, but you will have the same amount of choices as you did in Origins.  Origins already had "snarky" "angry" "flirty" etc options, they were just spelled out for you word for word.  With the choice to add VO work to DA2 it is completely illogical to have the lines spelled out word for word for you because you'd hear what you just read.  It's not a drastic change, you just want it to be a drastic change.  

Dragon Age is a game.  It is not real life.  If you're so invested in the game that you throw rage fits and feel like your world is falling down when a change happens and you aren't able to twiddle your thumbs about it, you may need to examine your life.

Fail, Bioware confirmed it is third person narrative, like mass effect, unlike DAO

So? They have also stated that you will be able to mold Hawke into the character you want him to be, unlike Shepard, and that the path to power involves multiple different options. You choose everything. So, sorry, you fail.

[Narreneth]

In Exile wrote...

Here's an example from Mass Effect about poor paraphrasing relative to the spoken line:

Inquisitor Pailin: So, they finally did it. They've made a human Spectre. I only hope you're better than the one you're sending after.

Shepard: [Paragon]: I strive to be.
Shepard: [Renegade]: Damn right.

In either case, the actual line is: "I'll do everything I can to stop him."

Pailin then says: "That's what worries me."

The entire interaction is set up so Pailin can get his line off. You're a soundboard for him, instead of the other way around. Honestly, I think that was the problem with the wheel. Often they'd try to get the line for the other character. They do this in DA:O a lot too, but it's way more visible when they're using VO for the PC.

Keep in mind I'm a huge fan of VO, and think it improves RP and a whole lot of things a lot of people on this board disagree with. That being said, those paraphrases completely fail to tell you what Shepard actually will do.

I don't think that was a problem inherent in the wheel; I think it was a problem inherent with the morality system in place in Mass Effect.  Since every major conversation point is meant to give you a chance to make Shepard more Paragon or more Renegade, there are situations where it feels forced if you play through again and find the options lead to the same place in those particular situation.

That said, there are places where the wheel worked very well, and that was when the focus was not directly on "we need to put good and bad options here."  Since the focus of the Wheel in DA2 is going to be giving the same volume of options as in Origins, but also have a system in place that makes the more cinematic parts stay cinematic.  I think it will work just fine.

I know some people don't like the idea of the game being cinematic, but quite frankly, Origins was already plenty cinematic except for when you are picking your lines.  

[Narreneth]

soteria wrote...

No.

Well, with such a eloquent argument backed up with compelling evidence, who can dispute you?

In the face of equally eloquent arguments, that's the default response.