468 réponses à ce sujet

[soteria]

No, you definitely missed my point. I'm assuming I'll understand what the symbols mean. I'm pretty sure you still don't understand what I'm saying, but that's ok.

[Victor Wachter]

soteria wrote...

My one concern about the wheel is if the little icon will imply consequences rather than just intent. For example, maybe one of the dialogue options looks like you're going to say something fairly reasonable, and the icon indicates a fight will start if you pick it. That would be off-putting.

Part of the appeal of any dialog system is that you don't always know where a conversation choice will lead. So, while intent may be indicated in the dialog wheel, the consequences will unfold through story.

[soteria]

^^ Good to hear, thank you.

[implodinggoat]

I've gotta disagree with the OP on this one. The conversation wheel from Mass Effect is one of the best things to ever happen to RPGs.



After playing Mass Effect going back to an unvoiced character in Dragon Age felt like a step backwards. With a bit of imagination I was able to adapt and get myself into the story; but there's no denying that I never developed the same fondness for Leonidas Cousland that I did for Leonidas Shepard.

[HemisH]

Victor Wachter wrote...

soteria wrote...

My one concern about the wheel is if the little icon will imply consequences rather than just intent. For example, maybe one of the dialogue options looks like you're going to say something fairly reasonable, and the icon indicates a fight will start if you pick it. That would be off-putting.

Part of the appeal of any dialog system is that you don't always know where a conversation choice will lead. So, while intent may be indicated in the dialog wheel, the consequences will unfold through story.

But this is a game where in a game I want to control what my character does or say... If I wanted to watch and be surprised at what the main character would do, I would watch a movie.

[AntiChri5]

HemisH wrote...

Victor Wachter wrote...

soteria wrote...

My one concern about the wheel is if the little icon will imply consequences rather than just intent. For example, maybe one of the dialogue options looks like you're going to say something fairly reasonable, and the icon indicates a fight will start if you pick it. That would be off-putting.

Part of the appeal of any dialog system is that you don't always know where a conversation choice will lead. So, while intent may be indicated in the dialog wheel, the consequences will unfold through story.

But this is a game where in a game I want to control what my character does or say... If I wanted to watch and be surprised at what the main character would do, I would watch a movie.

You are still surprised by what your character says, the only difference is you have to wait a bit.

[OriginsIsBest]

HemisH wrote...

Victor Wachter wrote...

soteria wrote...

My one concern about the wheel is if the little icon will imply consequences rather than just intent. For example, maybe one of the dialogue options looks like you're going to say something fairly reasonable, and the icon indicates a fight will start if you pick it. That would be off-putting.

Part of the appeal of any dialog system is that you don't always know where a conversation choice will lead. So, while intent may be indicated in the dialog wheel, the consequences will unfold through story.

But this is a game where in a game I want to control what my character does or say... If I wanted to watch and be surprised at what the main character would do, I would watch a movie.

Very true, this is the main reason which is putting me off buying DA2.

[AntiChri5]

slimgrin wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

ookay, can anyone confirm if this is fake or not?

triggerhappy456 wrote...

marquiseondore wrote...

I'm going to assume she's younger than Hawke

i dont think hawke looks that bad in this screesnhot
then again, i always liked the default shepard, since any custom characters by me looked like fish
if she doesnt change, then so be it, i will go default 

... the main guy looks like Shepard with a different tan, hair, and a beard

also, the dialogue is totally Mass Effect, which is totally bad

I'm impressed with the facial design. Hawke has a dignified look about him, and the woman is attractive. Nothing cartoony about this art style - that is, if it's a genuine screenshot of the game.

Its from the Game Informer article.

[Rpgsrock]

OriginsIsBest wrote...

HemisH wrote...

Victor Wachter wrote...

soteria wrote...

My one concern about the wheel is if the little icon will imply consequences rather than just intent. For example, maybe one of the dialogue options looks like you're going to say something fairly reasonable, and the icon indicates a fight will start if you pick it. That would be off-putting.

Part of the appeal of any dialog system is that you don't always know where a conversation choice will lead. So, while intent may be indicated in the dialog wheel, the consequences will unfold through story.

But this is a game where in a game I want to control what my character does or say... If I wanted to watch and be surprised at what the main character would do, I would watch a movie.

Very true, this is the main reason which is putting me off buying DA2.

You missed the point, the dialog wheel shows what your going to say and how you say it... but the given person will react to what you said and how you said it depending on who they are, just like in origins.

[Narreneth]

HemisH wrote...

Victor Wachter wrote...

soteria wrote...

My one concern about the wheel is if the little icon will imply consequences rather than just intent. For example, maybe one of the dialogue options looks like you're going to say something fairly reasonable, and the icon indicates a fight will start if you pick it. That would be off-putting.

Part of the appeal of any dialog system is that you don't always know where a conversation choice will lead. So, while intent may be indicated in the dialog wheel, the consequences will unfold through story.

But this is a game where in a game I want to control what my character does or say... If I wanted to watch and be surprised at what the main character would do, I would watch a movie.

If you pick a paraphrased option like "punch him" you're going to be surprised when the voice actor says something and then the character punches a guy?

[TransientNomad]

If done well, and Bioware has done it well, I think it will work in Dragon Age 2. I had no problem in either Mass Effect. I always knew the general gist of what my Shepard was going to say at all times, and more importantly, how he would say it.





Now if you want an example how NOT to do the dialog wheel, look at Alpha Protocol's "Suave, Aggressive, and Proffessional" style. At one point I was talking with a character. I wanted to convince him of something so I choose the "Sauve" option thinking it would lead to my Agent conning the npc. Only, he didn't con so much as insult the NPC which lead to a loss of rep with that character. Later on, I choose "Sauve" again to try to act snarky and insult a boss only to have my agent essentially try to flirt with the said Boss.

[Victor Wachter]

HemisH wrote...

But this is a game where in a game I want to control what my character does or say... If I wanted to watch and be surprised at what the main character would do, I would watch a movie.

Er, you kinda missed my point. I'm not arguing the virtue of one system or the other. Just saying that the wheel in the system we're developing will display intent, not consequence. You can choose a peaceful intent, but the character you're talking to might stab you anyway.

[BrutalWolfs]

Its gonna be fiiine.



Bio teh Ware knows what there doing

[Sirsmirkalot]

implodinggoat wrote...

I've gotta disagree with the OP on this one. The conversation wheel from Mass Effect is one of the best things to ever happen to RPGs.

After playing Mass Effect going back to an unvoiced character in Dragon Age felt like a step backwards. With a bit of imagination I was able to adapt and get myself into the story; but there's no denying that I never developed the same fondness for Leonidas Cousland that I did for Leonidas Shepard.

You're mixing up voice overs with the conversation wheel.

[TMZuk]

I admit, as I have stated before, I detest the idea of the wheel. It is beyond me how Bioware can claim this game will be a first person experience as DA1 was.

When you do not know what your character answers.... when you get "surprised", it is not a first person but a third person experience. An interactive movie. I had more than one occasion in ME and especially ME2, where I was like: WTF??? Especially JH's horrible: "I'll rather talk about you..." *cringes*

I've played "The Witcher", and while I dislike the game for having a fixed and voiced protagonist, the fact that he actually says what is written on the screen, gives a much more genuine first person experience than ME and ME2.

I agree with OP, it is a fundamentally flawed system, IMO.

Modifié par TMZuk, 16 juillet 2010 - 01:02 .

[tmp7704]

TMZuk wrote...

I've played "The Witcher", and while I dislike the game for having a fixed and voiced protagonist, the fact that he actually says what is written on the screen, gives a much more genuine first person experience than ME and ME2.

From the released previews the Witcher 2 is moving to pretty much identical system like DA2 seems to be sporting. The wheel is just on the left side of screen rather than the bottom, but it uses the same "idea rather than exact quote" for picking dialogue.

[AntiChri5]

I just realised i havent actually answered the point of this thread yet, only thrown pointy things at peoples opinions.



Is the dialogue wheel fundamentally flawed?



Of course not.



Were there problems witth its implementation in Mass Effect?



At times, Yes.



Is this system superior to a list?



Without a doubt.

[tmp7704]

17thknight wrote...

The problems with the wheel are this:
1. It limits how many words can be displayed
2. This causes the responses to be shortened, significantly, when they are placed next to the wheel
3. The shortened responses result in extreme paraphrasing that often does not reflect what the character says or how they will react.

There's already limit of 65 characters max to the player's line in original DAO. And from that posted screenshot one can pretty easily calculate even with the wheel in the middle there's enough room left on the screen for 60-odd characters on each side of the wheel -- the lines shown have 20 or so characters and take less than 1/3rd of half of the screen.

In other words, there's no technical reason to shorten the responses compared to the current game, let alone to shorten them "significantly".

That means the extreme paraphrasing you fear isn't too likely. The options may get shortened but it won't be because "the wheel limits how many words can be displayed".

Modifié par tmp7704, 16 juillet 2010 - 01:21 .

[joriandrake]

Victor Wachter wrote...

HemisH wrote...

But this is a game where in a game I want to control what my character does or say... If I wanted to watch and be surprised at what the main character would do, I would watch a movie.

Er, you kinda missed my point. I'm not arguing the virtue of one system or the other. Just saying that the wheel in the system we're developing will display intent, not consequence. You can choose a peaceful intent, but the character you're talking to might stab you anyway.

I think his main issue is that you can't read exactly what you will say, there are only 2-3 words in the reply option visible

[TMZuk]

tmp7704 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

I've played "The Witcher", and while I dislike the game for having a fixed and voiced protagonist, the fact that he actually says what is written on the screen, gives a much more genuine first person experience than ME and ME2.

From the released previews the Witcher 2 is moving to pretty much identical system like DA2 seems to be sporting. The wheel is just on the left side of screen rather than the bottom, but it uses the same "idea rather than exact quote" for picking dialogue.

That is rather much besides the point. We are discussing where DA2 is headed, not TW2. I used The Witcher as an example why I prefer the list over the wheel.  If Project Red is going along the same path as Bioware, I'll dislike that as well.

[Grommash94]

TMZuk wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

I've played "The Witcher", and while I dislike the game for having a fixed and voiced protagonist, the fact that he actually says what is written on the screen, gives a much more genuine first person experience than ME and ME2.

From the released previews the Witcher 2 is moving to pretty much identical system like DA2 seems to be sporting. The wheel is just on the left side of screen rather than the bottom, but it uses the same "idea rather than exact quote" for picking dialogue.

That is rather much besides the point. We are discussing where DA2 is headed, not TW2. I used The Witcher as an example why I prefer the list over the wheel.  If Project Red is going along the same path as Bioware, I'll dislike that as well.

That may just be where the industry in general is heading.

[tmp7704]

TMZuk wrote...

That is rather much besides the point. We are discussing where DA2 is headed, not TW2. I used The Witcher as an example why I prefer the list over the wheel.

Yes, i get that   I was just pointing out it's not only BioWare that's moving away from the "list of choices" conversation model. Whatever the reasons they seem to think new model is going to work better for whatever it is they're trying to achieve.

[TMZuk]

tmp7704 wrote...

TMZuk wrote...

That is rather much besides the point. We are discussing where DA2 is headed, not TW2. I used The Witcher as an example why I prefer the list over the wheel.

Yes, i get that   I was just pointing out it's not only BioWare that's moving away from the "list of choices" conversation model. Whatever the reasons they seem to think new model is going to work better for whatever it is they're trying to achieve.

At a guess, I'd venture it is because it is faster. Streamlining, voiceacting, crisp graphics and linear stories seems to be where all crpg's are headed. All I can hope is that the trend will reverse at some point, and large-scale BG2-like games will once more be possible.