468 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

TMZuk wrote...

At a guess, I'd venture it is because it is faster.

Probably although i wonder if that presumption ("it's faster") isn't actually wrong. It may take bit less time to read shorter summary options than it takes to read bit longer full options, but then at least as much if not more time is lost by the player trying to figure out what that option is actually supposed to mean... as long as one isn't just clicking blindly ME style, of course.

Plus, often enough it takes longer for NPC to finish their line than it takes the player to make decision in either case, so the whole push towards "faster experience" feels somewhat missing some factors.

Modifié par tmp7704, 16 juillet 2010 - 02:05 .

[CybAnt1]

How many icons? An aggressive icon? A nice, pleasing icon? A flirty icon? I think you can represent emotional states and tones with a variety of icons.



Will there be an icon for dialogue that is meant to be ironic ... sardonic ... sartorial ... jejeune? It gets hard to represent complex emotions and tones with icons ... doesn't it?



Oh yes, I agree, moving to icons and short phrases is definitely taking out the literary quality of the game. Let's agree on one thing: it's becoming less literary and more "cinematic", more of a "video game" (meaning, more twitch, more flash, more action).



I don't have to like it. That doesn't mean I won't get the game, but I'm tired of being told that this doesn't represent a change that's significant.



I liked RPGs because they had a literary quality to them that many other games don't.



Now that's going away. Oh well; just more epiphenomena of the Death of the Book, I suppose.

[soteria]

I think it's curious that people keep on talking about the "death of the book" as if it meant that people just don't read things anymore. Certainly it's possible that people read *books* more rarely than they used to--I'm not convinced that's true, but it's possible--but I don't think people read less than they used to. What are we doing right now? Reading a forum. The way people read has changed, but I don't think the quantity has.

[Narreneth]

CybAnt1 wrote...

How many icons? An aggressive icon? A nice, pleasing icon? A flirty icon? I think you can represent emotional states and tones with a variety of icons.

Will there be an icon for dialogue that is meant to be ironic ... sardonic ... sartorial ... jejeune? It gets hard to represent complex emotions and tones with icons ... doesn't it?

Oh yes, I agree, moving to icons and short phrases is definitely taking out the literary quality of the game. Let's agree on one thing: it's becoming less literary and more "cinematic", more of a "video game" (meaning, more twitch, more flash, more action).

I don't have to like it. That doesn't mean I won't get the game, but I'm tired of being told that this doesn't represent a change that's significant.

I liked RPGs because they had a literary quality to them that many other games don't.

Now that's going away. Oh well; just more epiphenomena of the Death of the Book, I suppose.

You didn't have that many options in DA:O either, so please, keep your expectations in the realm of possibility.  There's an infinite number of ways to respond to any given situation and only so many in the game parameters.  Some situations will have 6 possible individual responses.  You never got more than that to begin with.  You're just trying to make yourself look more intelligent and individual by taking the word "cinematic" and making it seem like a game can't be both cinematic and literary at the same time.  When they say cinematic they just mean the conversational scenes will flow better.

So: broken down here's how the change sits.  You tell me if it's significant.

In DA:O  Responses were limited to 65 characters and were typically presented with anywhere between 2 and 4 options.  Maximum reaching 5-6.  They were presented in a list, each response serving a purpose like "cautious" "aggressive" "flirty" etc.  Occasionally a line is misread in tone and ends up offending or not offending the person you are talking to.  It happened to me once or twice for sure.  Context is everything and the characters don't change their response based on what *you* think you're saying.

EXAMPLE when first introducing yourself to Morrigan after she says "Tell me your name and I shall tell you mine"
1) You can call me Narreneth (neutral) 2) Promise you won't harm us (cautious) 3) I am Narreneth.  A pleasure to meet you (civil) 4) Forget it!  You first. (aggressive/stand-offish)

On the wheel this could simply look like this:   1) Narreneth (neutral icon) 2) Don't harm us (cautious icon) 3) Pleased to meet you (civil or kind icon) 4) You first, lady! (aggressive icon)

Each option in DA:O already has these labels built in.  Now on to the Wheel.

In DA2 the wheel will have 3 options on either side making for a maximum of 6 responses to any given question or conversational prompt.  Each paraphrased option will have a corresponding icon that will tell you the general tone of what is being said.  It is possible the paraphrase won't be *exactly* what you thought, but this happens with a list of responses anyway.

With an example (and yes it's a verbatim example, I've got the screen up on my 360 right now on a new playthrough) like that in front of you, you can't possibly tell me you still think it's such a massive change that your game is no longer going to be involved and personalizable.

[joriandrake]

i may be wrong but maybe the adaptation of a ME-like conversation also means the characters will now have points in "renegade/paragon, dark side /light side"

[Malanek]

joriandrake wrote...

i may be wrong but maybe the adaptation of a ME-like conversation also means the characters will now have points in "renegade/paragon, dark side /light side"

I believe not. They have stated that no morality is linked to game mechanics. Which is a good thing.

Modifié par Malanek999, 16 juillet 2010 - 04:30 .

[oenis]

Narreneth wrote...


I wasn't aware that calling you ****y was misogyny.  If you called me a ****** I wouldn't say you had it in for men.  Stay on topic.

Had to cut in, because you actually did say some sexist things, like 'save it for your husband', Wtf?
Also, why are you picking on Addai? She's one of many people who are upset with the new direction of DA2, and unlike you she doesn't swear or throw out tons of insults. You said stuff like she was whiny, *****y, that she needs a life, basically a tl;dr of insults. 

Also, BW has confirmed it many times that it DA2 is a 3rd person narrative.

[Narreneth]

oenis wrote...

Narreneth wrote...


I wasn't aware that calling you ****y was misogyny.  If you called me a ****** I wouldn't say you had it in for men.  Stay on topic.

Had to cut in, because you actually did say some sexist things, like 'save it for your husband', Wtf?
Also, why are you picking on Addai? She's one of many people who are upset with the new direction of DA2, and unlike you she doesn't swear or throw out tons of insults. You said stuff like she was whiny, *****y, that she needs a life, basically a tl;dr of insults. 

Also, BW has confirmed it many times that it DA2 is a 3rd person narrative.

You are seeing only part of a longer conversation that took place across multiple threads.  The save it for your husband thing comes directly from a conversation a few days ago.  I tried having a regular conversation with her about the game and got nothing but insults and insinuations that myself and someone else in the thread that disagreed with her were idiots.  She had mentioned earlier that she had a husband so I told her that if she wanted to be ****y it would be better if she saved it for her husband as he is more likely to put up with it than we are.  That is in no way shape or form sexist.  And again, she started with the ****iness towards me today.  She has been far less than objective and respectful in a good portion of her posts and if you think otherwise you most likely havent seen many of her posts where people have tried to discuss their differences of opinions.  When she's simply stating she doesn't like something she does fine.  WHen someone enters into a conversation with her she takes on her "Smarter-than-you-holier-than-thou" attitude that I was complaining about before.  I also never said she needed a life.  I was stating that if she's so angry towards BioWare and hates DA:2 as much as her posts insinuate that she should spend her time elsewhere.  The "don't you have anything better to do" was not an insinuation that she doesn't.

Again, you're walking into something that stretches back far more than the one post you read.

[Narreneth]

joriandrake wrote...

i may be wrong but maybe the adaptation of a ME-like conversation also means the characters will now have points in "renegade/paragon, dark side /light side"

Yes, you'd be wrong about that.  That's one of the first things they mention in the GI article, and I believe they've mentioned it on the forums here.  DA:2 is sticking with the ambiguity that was present in DA:O. Again, they are not taking the system from ME.  All they are doing is taking the wheel and paraphrased lines to fit the voice acting better.  Nothing more, nothing less.

[oenis]

Okay, so instead of spreading your angry tirade all over the boards, keep personal insults out of it or use a PM.

[Narreneth]

oenis wrote...

Okay, so instead of spreading your angry tirade all over the boards, keep personal insults out of it or use a PM.

Don't presume to tell me how to use the boards.  When I am addressed in a public forum in a way that is insulting, I have no problem using an insulting tone to respond to the person.  I also have no problem being civil with said person later.  If you don't like what you see me saying, you are more than welcome to skip over my posts.  I won't be directing any insults at you, and most generally even when I'm being insulting I at least have a point.  I do utilize the PM feature when necessary; however, my definition of necessary may differ from yours.  (I also tend not to use it when things are really heated because I don't want to come off as harassing the person... I keep the conversations where they are and leave them there)

[CLime]

17thknight wrote...

There are instances in the game where the Paragon and Renegade responses were the exact same wording on screen, but one resulted in you comforting someone and the other had you beating them mercilessly.

That's just not true.  There may be a few instances where which choice is P or R wouldn't be immediately obvious, but not many.  Having played through both MEs mulitple times I can't remember any particularly confusing dialogue options.  At best, this point is a gross overstatement.

17thknight wrote...
Worst of all, it severely limits the number of responses that can even be displayed on-screen at a time, thus limiting the possible ways that you even can respond. How many Dragon Age conversations had half a dozen to a dozen responses? Quite a few, especially the more important conversations. You never felt like you were just flipping a coin between 1-3 responses that were "good bad and neutral" you were actually steering your character's personality via many responses that, while similar, were subtlely (or blatantly) different.

Good thing that the wheel, even in its Mass Effect incarnation, has half a dozen slots.

What the OP has a problem with is not the dialogue wheel, it's the shortened summaries used in place of full transcriptions.  Those, in fact, are a consequence of the decision to fully voice the main character, so that the player doesn't have to hear the same words s/he just read- the devs have confirmed as much.

The dialogue wheel makes things more efficient, not more complicated.  If the shortened prompts are a given, then the other option would be to put them in a simple list- in which case, it would be even less clear which prompts are Paragon/Renegade or whatever.

One thing that the wheel improves upon, even over the unvoiced, fully transcribed system, is indicating how certain options affect the momentum of the conversation.  In DA and similar games I'm often unsure which option will open additional side branches as opposed to moving to the next step in the encounter, but in ME it's usually very clear when the lateral moves are located on the left.

DA may not use the same organization, of course, since their morality system is less binary- in fact I hope they don't.  It could be that any of the six options move things along, with the new tone indicators providing such clues instead.

TL;DR: OP exaggerates and misses the point.

Modifié par CLime, 16 juillet 2010 - 04:53 .

[Narreneth]

CLime wrote...

17thknight wrote...

There are instances in the game where the Paragon and Renegade responses were the exact same wording on screen, but one resulted in you comforting someone and the other had you beating them mercilessly.

That's just not true.  There may be a few instances where which choice is P or R wouldn't be immediately obvious, but not many.  Having played through both MEs mulitple times I can't remember any particularly confusing dialogue options.  At best, this point is a gross overstatement.

17thknight wrote...
Worst of all, it severely limits the number of responses that can even be displayed on-screen at a time, thus limiting the possible ways that you even can respond. How many Dragon Age conversations had half a dozen to a dozen responses? Quite a few, especially the more important conversations. You never felt like you were just flipping a coin between 1-3 responses that were "good bad and neutral" you were actually steering your character's personality via many responses that, while similar, were subtlely (or blatantly) different.

Good thing that the wheel, even in its Mass Effect incarnation, has half a dozen slots.

What the OP has a problem with is not the dialogue wheel, it's the shortened summaries used in place of full transcriptions.  Those, in fact, are a consequence of the decision to fully voice the main character, so that the player doesn't have to hear the same words s/he just read- the devs have confirmed as much.

The dialogue wheel makes things more efficient, not more complicated.  If the shortened prompts are a given, then the other option would be to put them in a simple list- in which case, it would be even less clear which prompts are Paragon/Renegade or whatever.

One thing that the wheel improves upon, even over the unvoiced, fully transcribed system, is indicating how certain options effect the momentum of the conversation.  In DA and similar games I'm never sure which option will open additional side branches as opposed to moving to the next step in the encounter, but in ME it's usually very clear when the lateral moves are located on the left.

DA may not use the same organization, of course, since their morality system is less binary- in fact I hope they don't.  It could be that any of the six options move things along, with the new tone indicators providing such clues instead.

TL;DR: OP exaggerates and misses the point.

I posted an example (and this is my ego) above that I think is pretty good.  Hopefully it will help people who are so vehemently against it to see that it's not as big a change as they think it is.

[Querne]

In comparison to graphics and voicing, writing some complete lines of text instead of using key words for the ones of us who go to the cinema if they want it cinematic and are not absolutely overcharged with sentences with more than 2 words and emotional expressions surpassing "LOOOOOOOLLLLL" shouldn´t be a big financial issue.
If it wasn´t a 18+ game I could understand, that the newly reached audience of 5 years olds will be very happy with mood icons because than they don´t have to read at all anymore.

Taken together I´d like to have the OPTIONAL possibility to get the text my char will say displayed.
As beautiful interactive movies may be, that´s not what I want to play.

Modifié par Querne, 16 juillet 2010 - 04:56 .

[balchagi]

My main beef isn't with the wheel itself. It's that the PC is voiced. While that is fine and many people have argued that it enhances immersion for them, personally it limits replayability and immersion for me.

I don't expect a warrior to speak with the same tone, pitch, inflection as that of a mage or rogue. I'm afraid that after my first game there will be a disconnect between the new character class I choose and the voice I have associated fully with the previous character class I played as.

In DA:O, yes the dialogue choices that you have do not change to a great extent depending on origin and class. NPC reactions will always be the same for a certain dialogue choice. However my character's personality was not restricted due to a set voice and could be exactly what I imagined it to be within my head. This may sound silly to the people arguing in favor for a voiced PC, but as this forum shows, many people enjoy using their imagination to fill out their character.

Granted, you could do this in Mass Effect as well. But I found the voice characterized my Shephard too much to make him feel like he was 'my character'.

Anyways, I still hope Bioware can provide the option of turning off the voice over for those who would prefer it that way. Keep the wheel but show us what the character will say fully and let the players use their imagination to dictate the tone and intent. You'll still have the power to determine how the NPC will respond and how the story unfolds, but will be able to please the players who want to really get into the character's head and not have a voice that creates distance between themselves and their Hawke.

I have no doubts that DA2 will be a grand, entertaining game. I have the greatest respect for Bioware's designers and writers, especially Mr. Gaider. I've been a fan of his ever since he released the Ascension mod for ToB (A fittingly epic end compared to what was originally there). DA:O was something I had been craving for a very long time and perhaps I'm just a little disheartened that game design in general is moving further away from my tastes.

I hope Bioware proves me wrong and delivers a exemplary voice over system that allows a great connect between player and character.

Modifié par balchagi, 16 juillet 2010 - 05:04 .

[balchagi]

Querne wrote...

In comparison to graphics and voicing, writing some complete lines of text instead of using key words for the ones of us who go to the cinema if they want it cinematic and are not absolutely overcharged with sentences with more than 2 words and emotional expressions surpassing "LOOOOOOOLLLLL" shouldn´t be a big financial issue.
If it wasn´t a 18+ game I could understand, that the newly reached audience of 5 years olds will be very happy with mood icons because than they don´t have to read at all anymore.

Taken together I´d like to have the OPTIONAL possibility to get the text my char will say displayed.
As beautiful interactive movies may be, that´s not what I want to play.

I wish for this option as well. They must already have what the character will actually say written out for the voice actors. Would it be difficult to import that written dialogue into the game as an alternative for players that do not wished their character voiced?

[Narreneth]

balchagi wrote...

My main beef isn't with the wheel itself. It's that the PC is voiced. While that is fine and many people have argued that it enhances immersion for them, personally it limits replayability and immersion for me.

I don't expect a warrior to speak with the same tone, pitch, inflection as that of a mage or rogue. I'm afraid that after my first game there will be a disconnect between the new character class I choose and the voice I have associated fully with the previous character class I played as.

In DA:O, yes the dialogue choices that you have do not change to a great extent depending on origin and class. NPC reactions will always be the same for a certain dialogue choice. However my character's personality was not restricted due to a set voice and could be exactly what I imagined it to be within my head. This may sound silly to the people arguing in favor for a voiced PC, but as this forum shows, many people enjoy using their imagination to fill out their character.

Granted, you could do this in Mass Effect as well. But I found the voice characterized my Shephard too much to make him feel like he was 'my character'.

Anyways, I still hope Bioware can provide the option of turning off the voice over for those who would prefer it that way. Keep the wheel but show us what the character will say fully and let the players use their imagination to dictate the tone and intent. You'll still have the power to determine how the NPC will respond and how the story unfolds, but will be able to please the players who want to really get into the character's head and not have a voice that creates distance between themselves and their Hawke.

I have no doubts that DA2 will be a grand, entertaining game. I have the greatest respect for Bioware's designers and writers, especially Mr. Gaider. I've been a fan of his ever since he released the Ascension mod for ToB (A fittingly epic end compared to what was originally there). DA:O was something I had been craving for a very long time and perhaps I'm just a little disheartened that game design in general is moving further away from my tastes.

I hope Bioware proves me wrong and delivers a exemplary voice over system that allows a great connect between player and character.

I can at least understand this viewpoint.  You've got a simple gripe:  for you, voiced characters aren't as easy on you insofar as being immersed.  Makes sense.  Legitimate concern.  What bothers me is when people take something like the wheel system and blow it way out of proportion for what it is.  If you read up the page I put an example of how the wheel would work with a conversation from DA:O that I think does a decent job of demonstrating that it's not such a far cry from what we have already.

The voice over thing, while I am fine with it, I can understand as an argument.

[Mike2640]

My problem with the wheel isn't so much the wheel itself as much as it is how Bioware implements it. The dialogue wheel in Alpha Protocol, for example worked very well because the developers never gave the impression that you were deciding what the character was saying, just how he says it.



With Bioware the wheel text is supposed to be an abridged form of what the character is saying, but often times what the Character says is pretty different from the wheel text. This leads to a serious disconnect between myself and the character (Who is supposed to be my avatar), breaking the immersion and pulling me out of the experience.



As far as the voiced pc, I'm in the "If I wanted cinematic I'd watch a movie" crowd. The voice will never be as good as what your imagination can conjure up.

[UndercoverDoctor]

slimgrin wrote...

Default Hawke looks way better than default Shepard. It appears the new art style is not shooting for realism, but rather a stylized approximation of it. I think this approach works better with the current graphical technology we have.

I'm stoked to see the final product.

Huh? The faces look realistic to me. This ain't cel chaded.

[Narreneth]

Mike2640 wrote...

My problem with the wheel isn't so much the wheel itself as much as it is how Bioware implements it. The dialogue wheel in Alpha Protocol, for example worked very well because the developers never gave the impression that you were deciding what the character was saying, just how he says it.

With Bioware the wheel text is supposed to be an abridged form of what the character is saying, but often times what the Character says is pretty different from the wheel text. This leads to a serious disconnect between myself and the character (Who is supposed to be my avatar), breaking the immersion and pulling me out of the experience.

As far as the voiced pc, I'm in the "If I wanted cinematic I'd watch a movie" crowd. The voice will never be as good as what your imagination can conjure up.

You only know how it was implemented in Mass Effect.  It's a whole different ball game here.  If by the voice not being as good as your imagination you mean what the character's voice sounds like I suppose I can buy that.  IF you mean *how* the character says things (ie sarcastically etc) that doesn't really hold up when you take into consideration the characters in the game respond to you the same no matter what you think you meant.

[Mike2640]

Narreneth wrote...

You only know how it was implemented in Mass Effect.  It's a whole different ball game here.  If by the voice not being as good as your imagination you mean what the character's voice sounds like I suppose I can buy that.  IF you mean *how* the character says things (ie sarcastically etc) that doesn't really hold up when you take into consideration the characters in the game respond to you the same no matter what you think you meant.

No offense, but I think you're assuming it'll be a whole different ball game. Judging from what I've seen of the Game Informer article I see no reason to believe it will be any different than what was used in Mass Effect 1 and 2. And for the second thing, yeah I meant how it sounds.

[Massadonious1]

And from the movie trailers, The Last Airbender looked like a good movie.

[SirOccam]

CybAnt1 wrote...

How many icons? An aggressive icon? A nice, pleasing icon? A flirty icon? I think you can represent emotional states and tones with a variety of icons.

Will there be an icon for dialogue that is meant to be ironic ... sardonic ... sartorial ... jejeune? It gets hard to represent complex emotions and tones with icons ... doesn't it?

Not much harder than it is with a line of text. I'm not saying it was as bad as ME, but DA:O had more than its fair share of dialogue misfires. Honestly, even if they kept the lines verbatim, the icons would still be a worthy addition.

[Mike2640]

Massadonious1 wrote...

And from the movie trailers, The Last Airbender looked like a good movie.

I'm not certain what you mean by that or whether you were talking to me or not, but my feeling on that has less to do with the article itself and more on Bioware's track record. The article just didn't help any.

Also I didn't think The Last Airbender was all that bad.

[In Exile]

Mike2640 wrote...

My problem with the wheel isn't so much the wheel itself as much as it is how Bioware implements it. The dialogue wheel in Alpha Protocol, for example worked very well because the developers never gave the impression that you were deciding what the character was saying, just how he says it.

Alpha Protocol was absolutely brutal at letting you know what the options meant. You could fly completely off the cuff with what you were saying that had nothing to do with what you wanted. I don't even think Alpha Protocol pretends to be an RPG - no character customization, no choice in dialogue.... it's far more restrictive than ME. To use the word your character at all in that game is, IMO, silly.

Bioware gives you links - you pick the name, you choose each line generally knowing ahead of time what happens so you can choose it for a reason more than (be suave or be profesional), etc.

As far as the voiced pc, I'm in the "If I wanted cinematic I'd watch a movie" crowd. The voice will never be as good as what your imagination can conjure up.

The problem is my imagination does poor work when giving garbage material. My imagination works when I'm free to control the environment and shape it as I please, not when I have A and B and have to create a logically consistent, non-contradictory (relative to known facts in the game), character consistent linkage between the two. Then it's just a rationalization. I get that for some people this is really fun. But not for me, and for others who argue for a voiced PC. To us, there is no possible way to involve your imagination in the game.

It's like saying - no, imagine that instead of Duncan dying, he lived, and Alistair is just confused (this is to the well, if you read the non-VO dialogue wrong and it leads to an outcome not consistent with your character's tone pretend it is a mistunderstanding). In both cases we have the same evidence after the fact: Alistar's voiced dialogue. The difference is that in one case you have explicit evidence of coming up with a counterfactual that contradicts an in-game event (because you saw it) while in the other you have to recognize it abstractly.

I get that not everyone plays the game this way - but to those of us who do, VO is a good thing. I say this constantly as I want your side to appreciate we care about RP and connections to our characters as much as you do; you're just not getting why we're connected in the first place.