93 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

It's clear that the Tevinter mages were up to something, and that something went horribly wrong. Everything else is up for grabs at the moment.

[atheelogos]

Lomopingseph wrote...

I think it's supposed to be open to interpretation, broseph.

^

[ObserverStatus]

elfdwarf wrote...

or maker can be very powerful demon

Than again, this is DA:O were talking about, not some two bit jrpg. I'm sure Bioware will hold themselves to higher standards than making God a boss.

[kraidy1117]

I would love to see what is in the black city. Maybe future DLC or maybe that's what Hawke does in his adventure?

[term8]

McNoguff wrote...

**Seriously, [/i]he's seen the ark of the covenant, drank from the holy grail, and he's still supposed to be an atheist. Weird.

Firstly awesome awesome post.

Secondly i think the whole indiana jones thing ties perfectly into the dragon age maker arguement . In both universes many relics exist (holy grail, andrastes ashes, arc, etc...) just because these things resemble ancient stories about divinity doesn't mean they are divine (or from the divine)..... for example a highly sophisticated race of aliens could have planted the relics in indie's universe after reading ancient human lore (just for kicks).

There is no way of confirming a relics divinity, even if it matches descriptions of the divine.. heck one could even suggest that if the stars spelt out "I am god and i exist" the last theory one should come to is that god rearraged the stars and exists.

So i'd say in both universes the existence of God, or the maker, is still unconfirmed. ... making Indiana Jones a very savvy fellow no?

I hope others understand my crazy post

[kraidy1117]

term8 wrote...

McNoguff wrote...

**Seriously, [/i]he's seen the ark of the covenant, drank from the holy grail, and he's still supposed to be an atheist. Weird.

Firstly awesome awesome post.

Secondly i think the whole indiana jones thing ties perfectly into the dragon age maker arguement . In both universes many relics exist (holy grail, andrastes ashes, arc, etc...) just because these things resemble ancient stories about divinity doesn't mean they are divine (or from the divine)..... for example a highly sophisticated race of aliens could have planted the relics in indie's universe after reading ancient human lore (just for kicks).

There is no way of confirming a relics divinity, even if it matches descriptions of the divine.. heck one could even suggest that if the stars spelt out "I am god and i exist" the last theory one should come to is that god rearraged the stars and exists.

So i'd say in both universes the existence of God, or the maker, is still unconfirmed. ... making Indiana Jones a very savvy fellow no?

I hope others understand my crazy post

However we know the Ash's are hers and has to be divine, they are very powerful, but you are right.

[Altima Darkspells]

Tevinter did invade the Fade with their physical bodies, this is certain. They used a metric crapload of lyrium to do it too--something like two-thirds of all the lyrium in their empire, which spanned most of Thedas. On top of that, this was at the height of the dwarven empire, so clearly Tevinter traded heavily for lyrium from there.



There is a Black City. It is the center of the Fade--all masses in the Fade orbit the Black City like some sort of sun. Everywhere in the Fade is equi-distance from the Black City, but none can go to it, not even Fade denizens.



I can't recall what Justice said on the subject, but I'm inclined to believe that there is a Maker, or at least *something* powerful who calls it the Maker. A powerful demon was able to physical force its way through the Veil--which is supposed to be impossible, fyi--because it had fed on people for years. Imagine how powerful the Maker, if it was a Fade spirit, would be, having been worshipped by millions of people for thousands of years.



Justice did mention that fade denizens believe that is something 'beyond' both the Fade and the mortal word.



The only ones who would know if the Golden City actually ever existed would be extremely old Fade creatures. The spirits aren't telling, because they don't care about mortals, and demons, well, who trusts demons?



It could actually make sense--The Maker is a powerful fade spirit that is fed by worship. Then extremely old, extremely powerful high dragons show up and use their influence to catch the attention of Tevinter mages, who begin to worship them as the Old Gods. These mages refine their mages, even discover blood magic from the Old Gods and use their new power to carve out an empire. They force the people to turn away from the Maker demon, who slowly loses power. Skip ahead some time, and the Maker creature is so depleted, it enters a compact with a fledgling mage--Andraste. In return for the power to destroy Tevinter, Andraste must return its worship. Or maybe it simply tricks her. Or it justs posseses and turns her into an abomination.



Anyway, who knows. I kinda don't want to know any of these answers. One of Dragon Age's best lore is the fact that it all comes from 'in world', and it may be inaccurate or outright lies lost to time.

[term8]

kraidy1117 wrote...

However we know the Ash's are hers and has to be divine, they are very powerful, but you are right.

Do we? they could just be powerful due to all the lyrium in the halls... also the guardian could be a simple demon who likes toying with mortal beliefs; therefore, the ashes could be some demonic healing powder and not andraste's ashes at all...

I think my only point is that saying anything is certain, about the maker, at this point would be false... ha ha but only time and the writing team will tell

Anyway, who knows. I kinda don't want to know any of these answers.
One of Dragon Age's best lore is the fact that it all comes from 'in
world', and it may be inaccurate or outright lies lost to time.

I totally agree^

Modifié par term8, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:07 .

[RunCDFirst]

Lies and superstition - nothing more.

[McNoguff]

term8 wrote...

Firstly awesome awesome post.

Thanks!

Secondly i think the whole indiana jones thing ties perfectly into the dragon age maker arguement . In both universes many relics exist (holy grail, andrastes ashes, arc, etc...) just because these things resemble ancient stories about divinity doesn't mean they are divine (or from the divine)..... for example a highly sophisticated race of aliens could have planted the relics in indie's universe after reading ancient human lore (just for kicks).

There is no way of confirming a relics divinity, even if it matches descriptions of the divine.. heck one could even suggest that if the stars spelt out "I am god and i exist" the last theory one should come to is that god rearraged the stars and exists.

So i'd say in both universes the existence of God, or the maker, is still unconfirmed. ... making Indiana Jones a very savvy fellow no?

I hope others understand my crazy post

I apologize for the length of my response; When it gets late, I get talky.

I totally get what you're saying, man, but it's the opposite of real life. While in life we should never be satisfied with simple answers, irrespective of faith, in fiction we have suspension of disbelief. Here(in both Indy and DAO) we have a fictional universe with an internally consistent world view, supported by mystical powers and relics that date back however long. And I'm sure it's not coincidence that an invisible bridge and an elder guardian guard the holy healing relics in both continuities. Anyway. We can never completely infer authorial intent, sure, but suspension of disbelief entails a certain degree of trust in the narrative as presented. Is it possible we can encounter an unreliable narrator at some point? Damn skippy. Cue the ol' M. Knight "it's a twist!" exultation. It's possible.

But in the world of Dragon Age, we have a series of Codex entries presented factually(neither ambiguous nor vague in presentation) supported by observable in-game evidence. In no particular order: The black city can be seen from every vantage in the fade. The ashes are divinely powerful, if not in fact divine. Further, the actions of Andraste(whether divinely inspired or not) are a matter of Thedan historical record. Unlike, for example, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, for which we have no actual historical source documents(i.e. trial records under pilate, etc.), in the Dragon Age world the historicity of Andraste is not under dispute. Any christians out there, don't take that as a knock against your beliefs; I'm not saying that the lack of source documents invalidates the crucifixion, but rather that the undisputed historicity of Andraste's actions is an added layer of authorial assertion, within DAO's fictional landscape. Her life isn't meant to be analogous to that of Christ's. It is more recent, and understood within a historical context. 

I feel it's clear that we're supposed to take certain things as fact: The Maker, whatever it is, exists and has a will/great power. Andraste, through her association with this entity, is imbued with a certain degree of said power, as are her remains. And, of course, that whatever the entity that is "The Maker" might be, it once dwelled in The Golden city, and that place has become corrupt. Lastly, but certainly not least, there are a set number of named Old Gods, to which the maker is opposed, and the worship of which made him turn away from the world... These old gods all have names, and Urthemiel, Old God of Beauty, done got dead at the end of DAO. So we're supposed to believe they're real, too. We even got an explanation as to how the corruption of Urthemiel took place, in awakening.

Anyway, could it all turn out to be some lame super-dragon that calls the Old Gods younger siblings and just wanted to show them what-fer? Or some way more interesting twist involving the nature of spirit and faith? Yes! Very much so. But a great deal of work has gone into allowing the player, the consumer of this internally consistent fiction, to buy into The Maker, his wrath, and its subsequent creation of the Blight. Same goes for Indy; The author of that fiction is clearly putting forward, hey, God is real. Apparently, when Manna goes bad, it melts faces. But yeah, he's real. Here's his cup. 

And it was directed by a jew, so that's confusing. But anyway. The point: To answer the OP's question, yes. We're supposed to think that way, The Maker is real and the corruption of the Golden City created the blight and its minions. If misdirection is occurring we haven't been given any indication as yet, so just suspend disbelief and enjoy the ride. Since you posted this, if there is a twist, you can always shout Aha! Told you.

I knew Bruce Willis was dead.

I've seen the magnanimous and patient Mary Kirby and David Gaider on here, and they can always answer such questions with finality, of course.

And, once again I've contributed an epic length diatribe to the forums... Sorry for that.

Modifié par McNoguff, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:53 .

[Behindyounow]

Isn't it said by the spirit who gives you a weapon in the mage Origin that if you expect something to be in the fade, It will be there?

So, what with the Chantry always going "You can always see the black city in the fade", people expect it to be there all the time, so it is.

[Vaeliorin]

While I appreciate the well thought out post, I feel compelled to point out that the devs have told us in the past that the Codex is not, in fact, supposed to represent fact. It represents what the character has been told/read/whatever from an in game perspective, from the point of view of fallible individuals living within Thedas (this is why most of the codex entries have authorial attributions.)



As such, anything in the Codex could potentially be wrong, be it the truth of the Maker, elven immortality, or anything else.

[McNoguff]

@Behindyounow-- Excellent point. But doesn't Morrigan see it, if she goes in after Connor by her lonesome? I could be completely wrong about that. (I'm assuming Morrigan's a nonbeliever, but then she could be a closet, self-hating believer in The Maker...That would be awesome)

@Vaeliorin-- Equally valid point! And it does, potentially, allow for a (gasp!) major revelation at some future time. And I'll put aside my strong feeling that "major revelations" are a cheap form of modern fictional currency(an Aha! moment not earned is the pinacle of authorial laziness).

The important point is, no, this information isn't infallible, but it's all we've got. And that's a conscious decision on the part of the authors. So I say, just suspend disbelief and assume we're dealing more with Tolkien than with Shyamalan, so to speak. What's the alternative? To posit that Ferelden is The Matrix, or that The Maker is the Devil, or The Windfish?

If there is a great revelation to come, there's no indication as yet, and any and all indications we do have are in support of the "official" story. I'm saying that skepticism at this stage is unwarranted and unnecessary. Assume a cigar is just a cigar until we're given a reason to think it's... something else. And first chance we get, if such a clue presents itself, fall on the forum and dissect it like fans of Lost finding a Dharma Logo on a Shark.

Modifié par McNoguff, 15 juillet 2010 - 08:34 .

[Inverness Moon]

Dunno about the rest of this stuff, but I think Andraste was a mage. Perhaps one with a similar relationship to a spirit like Wynne. It's certainly more logical than the stuff the chantry spews out.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 15 juillet 2010 - 08:55 .

[Lord Gremlin]

So far my best guess is that originally only one race inhabited Thedas, but some mad scholar among them, who called himself The Maker, created the Darkspawn and dwarfs-elves-humans via some wicked experiment.



We can always ask Gaider, but he's too good at giving meaningless, but awesome answers.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

Quite simply I see it as real world organised religion. The whole making up a god to try to put answers to the unknown, the whole we don't have the answers so we'll make stuff up and pretend we have all the answers. I like Morrigan's response when asked if she believes in the maker



Leliana: I'm wondering Morrigan... do you believe in the Maker?



Morrigan: Certainly not. I've no primitive fear of the moon such that I must place my faith in tales so that I may sleep at night.



Leliana: But this can't all be an accident. Spirits, magic, all these wonderous things around us both dark and light. You know these things exist.



Morrigan: The fact of their existence does not presuppose an intelligent design by some absentee father-figure.



Leliana: So it is all random, then? A happy coincidence that we are all here?



Morrigan: Attempting to impose order over chaos is futile. Nature is, by it's very nature, chaotic.

[Jimbe2693]

About Andraste
There's a gift for Wynne; a book "The Search for the true prophet"

"This tattered tome explores the possibility that Andraste was a powerful mage, not the Maker's Chosen. It seems this book was saved from a fire at some point."

and i'll quote the wiki entry;
"Interestingly enough, there is a book called The Search for the True Prophet, which is a gift for Wynne, that mentions the possibility that Andraste wasn't, in fact, the Maker's Chosen, but rather "just" an extraordinarily powerful mage. That would explain why Andraste had such great insight on the dangers of magic while most humans fear magic despite their inability to clearly seperate "good" and "evil" magic. The text of the book mentions that it has been saved from a fire at some point in time, which sounds logical since the Chantry probably wouldn't tolerate any other depiction of Andraste but it's own. This is also an explanation for the healing capabilities of her ashes, since they could also originate from ancient and long forgotten magic. "


I'm gussing the Maker will remain unknown, maybe we'll find more hints about it's existence

Modifié par Jimbe2693, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:45 .

[FDrage]

which is just a book, which can be just as wrong as people imply the chantry is.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

FDrage wrote...

which is just a book, which can be just as wrong as people imply the chantry is.

Perhaps, but it seems like a more logical answer than what the chantry proposes. It's a fantasy world, so anything is possible. But it seems odd that they seem to know all about this maker, yet none of the have actually seen him.

[FDrage]

umm ... since when need something to "be seen" to exist. And logical .. not necessary, just general more "acceptable".

Modifié par FDrage, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:51 .

[ZaroktheImmortal]

FDrage wrote...

umm ... since when need something to "be seen" to exist. And logical .. not necessary, just general more "acceptable".

Well no one seeing it makes it unlikely to be real. Just like real life, I would ask for evidence of it's existence if I'm going to believe it's real. Also being unable to prove somethings non-existence doesn't make it real. You can't prove the non-existence of anything that isn't real not even the easter bunny or the tooth fairy.

But as this is a fantasy world, it's possible that there could be a deity in this fantasy world. But no one ever seeing it, yet people claiming they know all about it and say it is real seems to point more towards the religious folk making it up.

[Chairon de Celeste]

Answers:

According to Game Informer's timeline linked in the timeline thread

Yes and yes to both questions in the topic title.

hth

[FDrage]

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

Well no one seeing it makes it unlikely to be real. Just like real life, I would ask for evidence of it's existence if I'm going to believe it's real. Also being unable to prove somethings non-existence doesn't make it real. You can't prove the non-existence of anything that isn't real not even the easter bunny or the tooth fairy.

But as this is a fantasy world, it's possible that there could be a deity in this fantasy world. But no one ever seeing it, yet people claiming they know all about it and say it is real seems to point more towards the religious folk making it up.

Quite a lot of things in scientific history were not seen until people found ways to prove it existence and "variuous theories" just try to find a "logical" way of explaining things that might be real or in just the mind of the scientists. Does that make it real or not? Just because one can't proof something exists doesn't make it unreal. It just means ones present "technology" or "ideas" are just not good enough and whatever one is trying to proof or disproof is just too illusive to ones present "thought process". Or is it just the fact the people don't like to imagine the existing of a "supreme being" (or whatever one wants to call it) that makes it "not real".

For all we know is that Antraste met the maker and the maker is just what the cantry says it is, in which case until prove otherwise this would be the fact. Just like and good old theory.

[ZaroktheImmortal]

FDrage wrote...

ZaroktheImmortal wrote...

Well no one seeing it makes it unlikely to be real. Just like real life, I would ask for evidence of it's existence if I'm going to believe it's real. Also being unable to prove somethings non-existence doesn't make it real. You can't prove the non-existence of anything that isn't real not even the easter bunny or the tooth fairy.

But as this is a fantasy world, it's possible that there could be a deity in this fantasy world. But no one ever seeing it, yet people claiming they know all about it and say it is real seems to point more towards the religious folk making it up.

Quite a lot of things in scientific history were not seen until people found ways to prove it existence and "variuous theories" just try to find a "logical" way of explaining things that might be real or in just the mind of the scientists. Does that make it real or not? Just because one can't proof something exists doesn't make it unreal. It just means ones present "technology" or "ideas" are just not good enough and whatever one is trying to proof or disproof is just too illusive to ones present "thought process". Or is it just the fact the people don't like to imagine the existing of a "supreme being" (or whatever one wants to call it) that makes it "not real".

For all we know is that Antraste met the maker and the maker is just what the cantry says it is, in which case until prove otherwise this would be the fact. Just like and good old theory.

But that's exactly it, religion assumes to have the answers without any evidence. While a scientific theory will be denied and thrown out if it can't even provide any evidence that it may have happened. It's up to the people making the claims to provide evidence. Otherwise it seems more likely that they're just making it all up. Religious logic is always by not being able to disprove it makes it real. But by that logic al fairy tales or myths must be real. And somehow I doubt primitive cultures knew more about the universe than scientist of today. But I think we're getting off topic here. Realistically I doubt there is any deities. But again, this is a fantasy world so if they ever write in we see find this 'maker' then I guess that will make it real as far as anything else in the fantasy story. Otherwise it just seems too much like real life organised religion.

[Ashaman X]

While I myself am an Atheist, I like the story and mythology a lot. On the 1st page, someone mentioned the role of Ao in Dungeons and Dragons, and I like that as one possible view. I also like the possibility that the Maker is exactly what the Chantry says, so that for once somethhing is straight forward.



Also, with my Warden having done the dark ritual, I can't help but wonder if he won't face the Maker when he does die. I don't imagine the Maker would be too pleased about that, since he imprisoned the Old Gods for a reason. Then again, one has to ask, why imprison them and not just cause them to vanish out of reality? Would that mean that the Maker doesn't have the power to do that? Or perhaps the Old Gods are the fallen children of the Maker? I think of Morgoth from Lord of the Rings here.



Lastly, I do believe the Tevinter Mages got into the Golden City, but what they encountered there or what they did may never be truly known.