93 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Ashaman X wrote...

While I myself am an Atheist, I like the story and mythology a lot. On the 1st page, someone mentioned the role of Ao in Dungeons and Dragons, and I like that as one possible view. I also like the possibility that the Maker is exactly what the Chantry says, so that for once somethhing is straight forward.

Also, with my Warden having done the dark ritual, I can't help but wonder if he won't face the Maker when he does die. I don't imagine the Maker would be too pleased about that, since he imprisoned the Old Gods for a reason. Then again, one has to ask, why imprison them and not just cause them to vanish out of reality? Would that mean that the Maker doesn't have the power to do that? Or perhaps the Old Gods are the fallen children of the Maker? I think of Morgoth from Lord of the Rings here.

Lastly, I do believe the Tevinter Mages got into the Golden City, but what they encountered there or what they did may never be truly known.

If the Maker is as powerful as the chantry claims then if the dark ritual succeeded it is because he allowed it.

[RunCDFirst]

I think that, if there were any truth behind the Chantry's fables, they are so wrapped in hyperbole and myth that it would be impossible to tease it out. Don't expect any answers in the games, since the teachings of the Chantry are more set pieces than any actual important story.

[Iokastos]

The maker doesn't exist....If he does, why would you support the chantry or worship him? Apparently since a few corrupted mages entered this golden city all humanity was punished.. huh wtf? what about the enslaved populations, children, etc? what sin did they commit? Why couldn't the maker simply kill the archons and reveal his face to the world? Then again why does a pefect being require worship? does he feel lonely?

Answer: there is no maker

[term8]

McNoguff wrote...

If there is a great revelation to come, there's no indication as yet, and any and all indications we do have are in support of the "official" story. I'm saying that skepticism at this stage is unwarranted and unnecessary. Assume a cigar is just a cigar until we're given a reason to think it's... something else. And first chance we get, if such a clue presents itself, fall on the forum and dissect it like fans of Lost finding a Dharma Logo on a Shark.

i wish i had got on this sooner, but i disagree with you here.. and as others have pointed out there are a few subtle tidbits that may suggest that the "chantry" story and the "official" story may not be entirely the same.

ex. The search for the true prophet (already explained)... and ohgren's comment in the hall of the ashes: it's interesting.... there are a few others too, if you look for them.

I think it is a huge credit to the writers to construct a world in this fashion. I feel they welcome skepticism in regards to the maker, even making it an integral part of the DA universe. They may have a solid answer to the makers existence already established.. but they do not make this clear in DA:O by any means...

and once again i have to quote Altima Darkspells:

  One of Dragon Age's best lore is the fact that it all comes
from 'in world', and it may be inaccurate or outright lies lost to time.

 

Modifié par term8, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:47 .

[Bobad]

I really don't think this topic will be addressed...



Fox News Latest: Game Company famed for sordid space sex game now embraces aetheist agenda!

[term8]

Bobad wrote...

Fox News Latest: Game Company famed for sordid space sex game now embraces aetheist agenda!

ha ha:)

[McNoguff]

term8 wrote...

McNoguff wrote...

If there is a great revelation to come, there's no indication as yet, and any and all indications we do have are in support of the "official" story. I'm saying that skepticism at this stage is unwarranted and unnecessary. Assume a cigar is just a cigar until we're given a reason to think it's... something else. And first chance we get, if such a clue presents itself, fall on the forum and dissect it like fans of Lost finding a Dharma Logo on a Shark.

i wish i had got on this sooner, but i disagree with you here.. and as others have pointed out there are a few subtle tidbits that may suggest that the "chantry" story and the "official" story may not be entirely the same.

ex. The search for the true prophet (already explained)... and ohgren's comment in the hall of the ashes: it's interesting.... there are a few others too, if you look for them.

I think it is a huge credit to the writers to construct a world in this fashion. I feel they welcome skepticism in regards to the maker, even making it an integral part of the DA universe. They may have a solid answer to the makers existence already established.. but they do not make this clear in DA:O by any means...

and once again i have to quote Altima Darkspells:

  One of Dragon Age's best lore is the fact that it all comes
from 'in world', and it may be inaccurate or outright lies lost to time.

 

I have to say, you're all absolutely right. I think I just love me some good old fashioned Tolkienesque mythology, where we know who the gods were and what they did and there wasn't really a question about any of it. But clearly this is more nuanced. That being said, I still think it's clear that The Maker isn't merely a construct or myth. It seems that it's an actual entity of some sort, even if it ends up being a demon or dragon or whatever(Andraste was an abomination! Hallelujah!). I clearly got a little overzealous in my dislike of byzantine conspiracy theories(Assassin's Creed/Xenogears) and really dumb twists(It's a human reaper!). In the process I ignored codex entries and character moment's I'd read and heard in-game. Which just plain isn't all that smaht, so to speak. I tip my king to you guys:-D Dragon Age is clearly a layered fiction that, in its current state, allows for believers and non believers and gives ammunition to both.

Still: Really fun to chat about, thanks for doing it with me!

Modifié par McNoguff, 15 juillet 2010 - 06:12 .

[Risax]

For those who didn't read about the Elven gods.

There is a so-called Trickster god called Fen'Heral the dread wolf.

It is said he locked away the other Elven gods both good and evil.



Could he be the Maker? I mean if everyone would believe in him the others would be forgetten.

And since people say that if you believe something in the Fade it will exist, so if everyone stops believing in the Elven gods would they dissapear? I don't if they are sealed in the Fade BTW, but it would be a logical place to seal them.

[epoch_]

Was the healing power of andraste's ashes, not evidence enough for you heathens?

[Grommash94]

Gonna post what I posted in another thread:



"I have actually been thinking more about the theory I posted earlier. Thedosians worshipped the Old Gods, who, at one time, had walked the face of Thedas and had taught creatures how to use magic. However, they were also malicious, teaching the Tevinters about blood magic, and that they and they alone were gods. The Maker (whether he is an omnipotent creater or an extremely powerful, benovolent spirit is irrelevant) did not approve of this, and, well, imprisoned them underground. Obviously, they wanted to be free again, and so convinced the magisters that they had the power to defeat the Maker, even though the Old Gods knew that the magisters would not be succesful. Of course, the Tevinters failed, and became darkspawn, drawn to the call of the Old Gods, and went about freeing them.



I really think that something did once inhabit the Golden City, and that something is what the Chantry worships; there is a lot of evidence. Whether it created everything and is omniscient/omnipotent is an entirely different matter."

[Grommash94]

SirShreK wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Gonna post what I posted in another thread:

"I have actually been thinking more about the theory I posted earlier. Thedosians worshipped the Old Gods, who, at one time, had walked the face of Thedas and had taught creatures how to use magic. However, they were also malicious, teaching the Tevinters about blood magic, and that they and they alone were gods. The Maker (whether he is an omnipotent creater or an extremely powerful, benovolent spirit is irrelevant) did not approve of this, and, well, imprisoned them underground. Obviously, they wanted to be free again, and so convinced the magisters that they had the power to defeat the Maker, even though the Old Gods knew that the magisters would not be succesful. Of course, the Tevinters failed, and became darkspawn, drawn to the call of the Old Gods, and went about freeing them.

I really think that something did once inhabit the Golden City, and that something is what the Chantry worships; there is a lot of evidence. Whether it created everything and is omniscient/omnipotent is an entirely different matter."

They never walked the earth in of the records.

They WERE imprisoned...so surely they had to be free at some point?

[Altima Darkspells]

epoch_ wrote...

Was the healing power of andraste's ashes, not evidence enough for you heathens?

Oghren would like to point out the metric crapload of lyrium left in the hall.  Which is strange, given Adraste's blatant anti-Tevinter (and thus, anti-mage) stance.

And heathen is an interesting term.  Didn't the Chantry remove Shartan's contribution to their very own faith because it was convenient?  Somehow, I don't see them making up blatant lies about Andraste, or twisting any facts of history around, as too far out of their league.

Face it, the Chantry as a whole is a bastard.  The people in it may or may not be, though.

[Grommash94]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

epoch_ wrote...

Was the healing power of andraste's ashes, not evidence enough for you heathens?

Oghren would like to point out the metric crapload of lyrium left in the hall.  Which is strange, given Adraste's blatant anti-Tevinter (and thus, anti-mage) stance.

And heathen is an interesting term.  Didn't the Chantry remove Shartan's contribution to their very own faith because it was convenient?  Somehow, I don't see them making up blatant lies about Andraste, or twisting any facts of history around, as too far out of their league.

Face it, the Chantry as a whole is a bastard.  The people in it may or may not be, though.

Anti-Tevinter isn't an anti-mage stance. Anders felt that way, at least.

The Chantry is indeed corrupt, and Andraste probably hates what it has become, if she wanders the Fade.

[Sons of Horus]

I guess people should have stuck with the Tervinter's Religion. Dragon Gods Away!

[fanman72]

Santiri_azz wrote...

The maker doesn't exist....If he does, why would you support the chantry or worship him? Apparently since a few corrupted mages entered this golden city all humanity was punished.. huh wtf? what about the enslaved populations, children, etc? what sin did they commit? Why couldn't the maker simply kill the archons and reveal his face to the world? Then again why does a pefect being require worship? does he feel lonely?
Answer: there is no maker

Haha, I'm guessing you're an atheist in real life?

[Grommash94]

SirShreK wrote...

Says who?

The codex entries clearly state that the Maker imprisoned the Old Gods, or that is what the Chantry says.

That means they were free at some point.

[Daerog]

The Imperial Chantry is the right one. All hail the Archon!

[ZaroktheImmortal]

McNoguff wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

The supposed immortality of elves could also just be a story.

From the codex entry on Uthenera:

"Elves did not age. They were not immortal, but they did not suffer from deterioration of the mind or body. They suffered only from a deterioration of spirit."

Uthenera* was a practice that allowed for the release of an extremely elderly elven individual.

I don't think that there's any ambiguity in this codex entry or in any others, however, that would seem to indicate elves weren't ageless at one time or another. Even among people willing to use the racist epithet "knife ear," I don't recall anyone referring to "supposed" immortality. It seems pretty firmly established in DAO's canon that the elves of Arlathan were ageless, and the burial chamber where you find the Juggernaut Plate Armor is an Uthenera chamber. So they do, in fact, die.

More importantly, no matter how long a tradition goes back, unless you're a creationist or believe in the spontaneous creation of culture the creation of life and the world would predate any culture's ability to remember it, no matter how old. And the maker, like the god of Jacob in the Indiana Jones movies**, is clearly real in this fictional universe.

*somewhat homonymous with euthanasia, or mercifully ending a life— "eu" greek for good and "thanatos" greek for death, good-death

**Seriously, he's seen the ark of the covenant, drank from the holy grail, and he's still supposed to be an atheist. Weird.

Yes but if I remember in the thing with those tombs it was explained that eventually the Elves would go into these tombs and eventually succumb to a sort of death. They did this to give way for younger generations. So it's suggest they only really died because they allowed it to happen. It sounds like though they could live forever they'd get to a stage where they'd willingly choose to leave their world as it were.

[Collider]

I was going to say that one thing I loved about Dragon Age was that the existence or power of the "Maker" and the truth of the "Chantry" was ambiguous, but then I remembered the "Ashes of Andraste." Sigh.

Modifié par Collider, 16 juillet 2010 - 09:51 .

[Grommash94]

Collider wrote...

I was going to say that one thing I loved about Dragon Age was that the existence or power of the "Maker" and the truth of the "Chantry" was ambiguous, but then I remembered the "Ashes of Andraste." Sigh.

It doesn't necessarily confirm an all powerful 'god'. Just a very powerful being in the fade.

[Collider]

Grommash94 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I was going to say that one thing I loved about Dragon Age was that the existence or power of the "Maker" and the truth of the "Chantry" was ambiguous, but then I remembered the "Ashes of Andraste." Sigh.

It doesn't necessarily confirm an all powerful 'god'. Just a very powerful being in the fade.

True - but I would have liked more of an indication that it could be a powerful being in the fade. If you hadn't told me I would have never really thought of that possibility.

[Kreid]

Of course it is left ambiguous in the game, but I think things would make much more sense if he does indeed exist.

Also, the "timeline of Thedas" article in GI surely depicts the birth of the Darkspawn as historical fact, I know that an outside article is far from confirming anything but there it is.