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#126
Haexpane

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The Harley Dude wrote...

Oblivion leveling was just fine. My level 41 Breton had 100% magic resistance and 66% magic and damage reflection. All other armour had the 50 magic boost sigil stone so I could stand in the middle of any number of enemies cast 100% weakness to magic and proceed to slice them up with my health drain dagger on max difficulty.

Maybe your character build just sucked.
 .


Here we go.   You had a power build Oblivion character, hooray?  Anyone can build a powerful oblivion character, that isn't why the level scaling is broken in Oblivion.

#127
Paromlin

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Tirigon wrote...

No it´s not. You´re a great warrior / mage when you´re chosen to be a Grey Warden. You don´t get better by doing what you did your entire life a week longer.



Seriously though; I´m defending Levelscaling because I prefer a ridiculous game mechanic over a game that´s almost impossible during the early levels and much too easy later on.


You're not "a great warrior/mage" when you become a grey warden. Don't remember being the mage apprentice who goes through initiation, etc. before you get recruited?
You can imagine level 1 as being strong/weak/average - doesn't matter. You're simply improving with additional levels.


You're defending level scaling... because of your conjecture about games with level scaling "bla bla impossible early bla bla easy later bla".

Also, I'm done with you. You're more senseless than level scaling. I thought that's not possible.

#128
Tirigon

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Haexpane wrote...


people will flame, but DA needs a true loot table system.  Not just "unique items" + everything else is scaling junk


DA needs a total change in Loot towards:

Loot on corpses = what the guy was wearing; not more, not less. For animals, only stuff that´s realistic, e.g. Dragon Scales from a dragon, but NOT a completed dragonscale armor.

Loot on chests = stuff that makes sense in the place; e.g. nothing of worth in a peasant´s hut, but treasures in a treasure chamber.

#129
Tirigon

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Haexpane wrote...



You're mixing canon w/ game mechanics.  Always a path to disappointment.

If I remember correctly Logain was calling me a Grey Warden Recruit.  So even in canon, Grey Wardens should get stronger as they come close to the ultimate.

If you don't want levels, that's what the books are for.

RPGs need levels.  RPGs w/o levels either suck, or replace levels w/ item levels or "circles" ... it's all the same thing


RPGs don´t need levels. RPGs need roleplaying, a good story and good NPCs. Everything else is just the crap that forces me to play RTS and FPS games, too, whenever I can´t stomach the horrible leveling and looting sh!t anymore.

Halo still has the best leveling system ever. It´s called "no leveling".

#130
Tirigon

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Paromlin wrote...

You're not "a great warrior/mage" when you become a grey warden. Don't remember being the mage apprentice who goes through initiation, etc. before you get recruited?

But you´re extremely talented.....
And it´s even clearer in other origins. The City Elf, for example, killed an Arl´s son and about 20 armed guards....

You can imagine level 1 as being strong/weak/average - doesn't matter. You're simply improving with additional levels.

That´s why 1 or 2 levelups make sense. But not 20.


You're defending level scaling... because of your conjecture about games with level scaling "bla bla impossible early bla bla easy later bla".
Also, I'm done with you. You're more senseless than level scaling. I thought that's not possible.

And you are apparently an arrogant idiot who can´t understand intelligent arguments when they hit him in the face.
Goodbye.

#131
Haexpane

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Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...


people will flame, but DA needs a true loot table system.  Not just "unique items" + everything else is scaling junk


DA needs a total change in Loot towards:

Loot on corpses = what the guy was wearing; not more, not less. For animals, only stuff that´s realistic, e.g. Dragon Scales from a dragon, but NOT a completed dragonscale armor.

Loot on chests = stuff that makes sense in the place; e.g. nothing of worth in a peasant´s hut, but treasures in a treasure chamber.


You really seem stuck on canon and "hyper realism".  That doesn't work in videogames. 

While I enjoy as much as the next guy the whole "I killed that boss and took his sword" it doesn't work for DAO

However your indication is you want fixed loot.  Which is anti-level scaling.  I too would rather have a Dragon loot be epic and random wolves drop nothing great.

But that would still mandate levels.

#132
Tirigon

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Haexpane wrote...


You really seem stuck on canon and "hyper realism".  That doesn't work in videogames. 

While I enjoy as much as the next guy the whole "I killed that boss and took his sword" it doesn't work for DAO

However your indication is you want fixed loot.  Which is anti-level scaling.  I too would rather have a Dragon loot be epic and random wolves drop nothing great.

But that would still mandate levels.


It would not mandate levels. It´s actually quite similar to Oblivion: If you kill a guy in Daedra armor, you get Daedra armor. If you kill a nude guy, you get nothing. And if you kill a guy in Leather, you get Leather.

#133
In Exile

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Paromlin wrote...
You're not "a great warrior/mage" when you become a grey warden. Don't remember being the mage apprentice who goes through initiation, etc. before you get recruited?
You can imagine level 1 as being strong/weak/average - doesn't matter. You're simply improving with additional levels.


Except that you can know as much magic as Wynne, who is decades your senior and a potential candidate for first enchanter if she wanted to be when you meet her returning to the tower.

Plus, you're supposed to be a genius. Irving says as much, and so does the pride demon in Uldred.

That aside, from a lore standpoint, the Harrowing isn't an initiation. It's a test designed by the chantry to see if you are allowed to live. Mages that pass the Harrowing are asked to teach magic, so that would all make it seem as if they are quite powerful and mature. It maps well onto the real world - the Harrowing could well be your doctorate thesis.

#134
Haexpane

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Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...



You're mixing canon w/ game mechanics.  Always a path to disappointment.

If I remember correctly Logain was calling me a Grey Warden Recruit.  So even in canon, Grey Wardens should get stronger as they come close to the ultimate.

If you don't want levels, that's what the books are for.

RPGs need levels.  RPGs w/o levels either suck, or replace levels w/ item levels or "circles" ... it's all the same thing


RPGs don´t need levels. RPGs need roleplaying, a good story and good NPCs. Everything else is just the crap that forces me to play RTS and FPS games, too, whenever I can´t stomach the horrible leveling and looting sh!t anymore.

Halo still has the best leveling system ever. It´s called "no leveling".


Well I guess we can agree that you hate RPG videogames?  

#135
Harley_Dude

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Haexpane wrote...

The Harley Dude wrote...

Oblivion leveling was just fine. My level 41 Breton had 100% magic resistance and 66% magic and damage reflection. All other armour had the 50 magic boost sigil stone so I could stand in the middle of any number of enemies cast 100% weakness to magic and proceed to slice them up with my health drain dagger on max difficulty.

Maybe your character build just sucked.
 .


Here we go.   You had a power build Oblivion character, hooray?  Anyone can build a powerful oblivion character, that isn't why the level scaling is broken in Oblivion.


The only issue I found is that it was more diffcult, but not impossible, to keep allies alive at high levels. If you are able to build a character that is always more powerful then what you encounter how is leveling broken? The whole point of exploring and doing sidequests is to get better equipment. What do you want, everything to just rollover and die at your feet? Try Borderlands that may suit you.

#136
Haexpane

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Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...


You really seem stuck on canon and "hyper realism".  That doesn't work in videogames. 

While I enjoy as much as the next guy the whole "I killed that boss and took his sword" it doesn't work for DAO

However your indication is you want fixed loot.  Which is anti-level scaling.  I too would rather have a Dragon loot be epic and random wolves drop nothing great.

But that would still mandate levels.


It would not mandate levels. It´s actually quite similar to Oblivion: If you kill a guy in Daedra armor, you get Daedra armor. If you kill a nude guy, you get nothing. And if you kill a guy in Leather, you get Leather.


Um yeah, that was broken in Oblivion and one of the reasons level Scaling is so hated in RPG games.  Random yard trash would spawn in the best armor/weapons in the game every 24 hours.

Those same random trash mobs would spawn w/ leather if you were lower level.  How was that fun again?

The unique gear was just like any other RPG, either quest or on Boss mobs

#137
Tirigon

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Haexpane wrote...


Well I guess we can agree that you hate RPG videogames?  


Of course not; I LOVE Dragon Age and, years ago, I LOVED Oblivion and even played Morrowind inspite of the worst combat mechanism I have ever seen. And Witcher is a great game too......


However, I like RPGs IN SPITE of leveling and all that stuff, not because of it.

#138
Paromlin

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In Exile wrote...
Except that you can know as much magic as Wynne, who is decades your senior and a potential candidate for first enchanter if she wanted to be when you meet her returning to the tower.

Plus, you're supposed to be a genius. Irving says as much, and so does the pride demon in Uldred.

That aside, from a lore standpoint, the Harrowing isn't an initiation. It's a test designed by the chantry to see if you are allowed to live. Mages that pass the Harrowing are asked to teach magic, so that would all make it seem as if they are quite powerful and mature. It maps well onto the real world - the Harrowing could well be your doctorate thesis.


Magnificent, the PC is a super-hero then, no doubt.
... that's why I added "You can imagine level 1 as being strong/weak/average - doesn't matter. You're simply improving with additional levels."

I played only the dalish elf origin.

#139
Haexpane

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The Harley Dude wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

The Harley Dude wrote...

Oblivion leveling was just fine. My level 41 Breton had 100% magic resistance and 66% magic and damage reflection. All other armour had the 50 magic boost sigil stone so I could stand in the middle of any number of enemies cast 100% weakness to magic and proceed to slice them up with my health drain dagger on max difficulty.

Maybe your character build just sucked.
 .


Here we go.   You had a power build Oblivion character, hooray?  Anyone can build a powerful oblivion character, that isn't why the level scaling is broken in Oblivion.


The only issue I found is that it was more diffcult, but not impossible, to keep allies alive at high levels. If you are able to build a character that is always more powerful then what you encounter how is leveling broken? The whole point of exploring and doing sidequests is to get better equipment. What do you want, everything to just rollover and die at your feet? Try Borderlands that may suit you.


The point is you can not build up a powerful oblivion character WITHOUT doing that min/maxing that you and most of us did.

if you just played Oblivion the way it was intended, you got LESS powerful as you leveled up.  The main quest got harder, everything you fought got harder as you leveled.

Bandits right outside the cities got uber if you leveled up.

If you did not have your 100% magika resist breton etc..

Anyone who played Oblivion the "normal" way as a non magic resist/magic casting toon will confirm.  Closing the oblivion gates became an absurd grind fest.

That is until the light goes off and people figure out what you did, circumvent the broken level scaling by making a broken toon that can kill anything

#140
BomimoDK

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if, to a realistic degree, Levelscaling encompassed skills i'd fall in love instantaneously. i would love some Time-stop spells in the higher levels to pump up the intensity. Dragon Age was described as vicious feral combat and i think this kind of tuning, along with some quantity increase would suit Hard and Nightmare perfectly.



Give me hell or give me death--- oh, wait!?

#141
Tirigon

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Haexpane wrote...

Um yeah, that was broken in Oblivion and one of the reasons level Scaling is so hated in RPG games.  Random yard trash would spawn in the best armor/weapons in the game every 24 hours.

Those same random trash mobs would spawn w/ leather if you were lower level.  How was that fun again?

The unique gear was just like any other RPG, either quest or on Boss mobs


The sucky part was that bandits could get glass and Daedra armor; which is why I installed a mod that changed that; except for bosses no bandit would ever have more than Steel or maybe dwarf, and even bandit lords wouldn´t have Daedric equipment.

The idea of looting what the other one wears instead of randomly spawned crap was good.

#142
Haexpane

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Once you bring mods into it, the discussion is off.



Balance is only relevant w/ Vanilla releases. Once you mod to your taste, (which is a fine thing to do) balance is gone.



Or in the case of Oblivion, balance is gone in Vanilla, and mods introduce a semblance of balance.

#143
Harley_Dude

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[/quote]

The point is you can not build up a powerful oblivion character WITHOUT doing that min/maxing that you and most of us did.

if you just played Oblivion the way it was intended, you got LESS powerful as you leveled up.  The main quest got harder, everything you fought got harder as you leveled.

Bandits right outside the cities got uber if you leveled up.

If you did not have your 100% magika resist breton etc..

Anyone who played Oblivion the "normal" way as a non magic resist/magic casting toon will confirm.  Closing the oblivion gates became an absurd grind fest.

That is until the light goes off and people figure out what you did, circumvent the broken level scaling by making a broken toon that can kill anything

[/quote]

My first playthough was an Imperial Bard. Not as easy as the Breton for sure but still playable with the right equipment and spells. I have no problem with bandits dropping good loot. I needed the gold to purchase all the homes and shops. One of the things I hate about DAO is that you put points in cunning and devices to get to level 4 and still get garbage out of chests.

#144
Tantum Dic Verbo

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soteria wrote...



So many things that are considered an integral part of RPG's are really nothing more than Gary Gygax' arbitrary decisions in the 70's. Levelling, ever-ascending hit-points, the "kill everything and take its stuff" mentality, and a hundred other things are all there because they've always been there.

Well, the only question is if you happen to like those features. A lot of them seem to be extremely popular, since they've been leaking into other genres (especially strategy) for the past ten years and more.


My point isn't so much about preference as the presumption that these things define a RPG.  A character's conflict resolution options could be spelled out at generation, rather than taking a sort of superhero bildungsroman approach.  Some people might prefer something like that.  After 30 years of PnP play, I've been working more with that sort of model.  Lots and lots of people might prefer the incremental increase in abilities.  A large number, it would seem, can't even conceptualize a role-playing game without that sort of advancement.

When Bioware announces some sort of vague change to a game, they are immediately hammered for watering down the role-playing elements, like inventory management, or the breadth of skill trees.  The issue is that many people who consider themselves RPG fans have come to think that their gameplay preferences are the defining characteristics of the RPG.  They're not.  In fact, it's difficult to formulate a definition of RPG that isn't either too broad or too narrow.

If people recognized the difference between personal preference and some sort of objective, platonic "good" in gaming, we'd have better discussions on the boards.

Modifié par Tantum Dic Verbo, 20 juillet 2010 - 03:14 .


#145
AmstradHero

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Paromlin: I don't like doing this, but I'm afraid I'm going to have to be a bit blunt. Please note that I'm not attacking you here, just trying to state things in a matter-of-fact manner. Unfortunately, I don't see any further point in debating anything with you, given your last post effectively said: "your post is too long, ergo you are wrong". If you had read it, you would have seen I actually agree with you at points, but that I am also aware of game design issues that demand level scaling in a non-linear game. You mentioned I should play Baldur's Gate and Storm of Zehir as "homework". I have played both, and as such, I know that they both have a linear critical path. Dragon Age doesn't, which is why it needs encounter scaling. Presently, level scaling is the most time efficient means perform encounter scaling to provide balanced combat across a wide level range for most combat system mechanics.  Please do not take offense when I say this, but I would suggest that you go study game design, as it will give you a lot more insight into the area. It is a very complex subject, but also really interesting. There are a lot of factors to consider even when you think you're just talking about level scaling. As an example, consider the effect that non-scaled encounters and gating encounters have on player enjoyment due to backtracking. Game design is, for better or for worse, not a simple equation.

Okay, with the slightly ugly part of the post out of the way...

Item scaling:
Yes, there's way too much trash loot in Dragon Age. Couldn't agree more. It does fit in with the low magic setting of Thedas, and I don't have a problem with that. However, it comes across as a little ridiculous later in the game when everyone is dropping dragonbone and silverite weapons and armour.  Unfortunately, we run into issues of economy in terms of pricing of items, if we don't have the deluge of high tier items at higher levels. The problem is that game economies suck in most games (particularly RPGs) that involve money. In the majority of games you start off a pauper and by the end are generally so rolling in gold/credits/bottlecaps/crispy fried llama skins, that you could practically buy off everyone in the game world.
Do I have the solution? I'll tell you what, if I figure it out, I'll pitch it to BioWare as part a job application.

Oblivion's level scaling:
It sucks. There's no two ways about it. Bandits with glass armour, daedroth roaming the countryside, guards that can almost go toe to toe with the hero ot Tamriel... Yuck.

I can't remember which race I played with, but I made a custom warrior/mage class that was an adaption of the custom class I'd made in Morrowind. I failed to get into Morrowind six times because I got brutally smashed by enemies early on, so when I finally found how to min/max in the system, I used it in Oblivion so I wouldn't get brutalised again. As such, the game did get a bit easy as I levelled up, but I remember getting handily dispatched by trolls in the early-to-mid-game.


I think the most interesting point that's been raised the in the thread is the abolition of levelling entirely. I like the concept, but I think the problem would be merging it into the "rise to power" tradition present in CRPGs. Or perhaps RPGs in general? Players like to have the sense of acheivement of becoming powerful and so they would be able to summarily destroy the weaklings they encountered at the start of the game. It's the empowerment of becoming a champion that people are attached to, and it could be argued as a result of that, levels are now more frequently granted to players. While the overall rise in power might be the same across the adventure, the granularity of that progression is more fine grained so that players get more "WoWcrack" from seeing that advancement occur.

We human beings are easily manipulated creatures - even when we know we're being manipulated. :)

Modifié par AmstradHero, 20 juillet 2010 - 01:36 .


#146
Rubbish Hero

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The main thing for me is just... balanced gamplay.
Which it wasn't, as an Arcane Warior/Blood mage, even on the hardest difficulty, you could demolish the game.

#147
In Exile

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AmstradHero wrote...


I think the most interesting point that's been raised the in the thread is the abolition of levelling entirely. I like the concept, but I think the problem would be merging it into the "rise to power" tradition present in CRPGs. Or perhaps RPGs in general? Players like to have the sense of acheivement of becoming powerful and so they would be able to summarily destroy the weaklings they encountered at the start of the game. It's the empowerment of becoming a champion that people are attached to, and it could be argued as a result of that, levels are now more frequently granted to players. While the overall rise in power might be the same across the adventure, the granularity of that progression is more fine grained so that players get more "WoWcrack" from seeing that advancement occur.

We human beings are easily manipulated creatures - even when we know we're being manipulated. :)


Personally, I like the principle that the Elder Scrolls applies. I think it does a much better job to capture how skill growth actually works. I think it is a poor system as implemented, but I think it really captures how we learn.

#148
In Exile

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Paromlin wrote...
Magnificent, the PC is a super-hero then, no doubt.
... that's why I added "You can imagine level 1 as being strong/weak/average - doesn't matter. You're simply improving with additional levels."

I played only the dalish elf origin.


Actually I was saying that made no sense. If level 1 is strong... how have I learned tens of spells in weeks, when it took me a decade to learn 2? Leveling and magic are just nonsensical when you tie spells to levels.

#149
The Hardest Thing In The World

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I hate item scaling but don't mind level-scaling after all. So what if I killed the dragon and then minutes later, gone exploring and got jumped by a bunch of wolves who shred me to bits in an area full of traps? **** happens.



Just stop the item scaling.

#150
SkittlesKat96

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I want to fight stronger enemies, but I want to also fight weaker enemies so I can see how stronger and skilled my character has become.



Stronger enemies should also be easier to find if you go to a more dangerous place that is later in the game.



I.e, start off fighting wolves, thugs and roaming gentlocks then at the end of the game we get to fight heavily armored kings, armored ogres, powerful cursed spirits, dragonlike (or even dragons themselves) creatures and all that cool stuff.