235 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

Tirigon wrote...

The Harley Dude wrote...

The leveling in Borderlands seemed fine to me. RPG purists dismiss it but I found the game to be quite fun. All the missions show you the level so you have an idea of how difficult it will be. It also allows you to respec your character and to try different skills. Being able to play co-op is an added bonus. I also liked Darksiders which has no leveling but you get more skills and health as the game progresses. The enemies get more difficult but not as bad as Oblivion.

In Borderlands, I like the CO-op, and I loved the respec, but the leveling, imo, sucked because enemies didn´t scale with you but were on fixed levels. Effectively that meant that always 95% of the game were either too easy or impossible.

I don't quite agree with that. I thought the level of challenge throughout most of the game was good. The anti-scaling just meant it was always best to do things in a certain order. I liked borderlands, it worked in the genre where hellgate london flopped.

[Tirigon]

Malanek999 wrote...

I don't quite agree with that. I thought the level of challenge throughout most of the game was good. The anti-scaling just meant it was always best to do things in a certain order. I liked borderlands, it worked in the genre where hellgate london flopped.

It really comes down to taste. I hated that you have to do things in a certain order.

[Malanek]

Tirigon wrote...
It really comes down to taste. I hated that you have to do things in a certain order.

Yep, that is what scaling tries(?) to get around. Either way can work for me, although I hated the scaling in Oblivion.

[soteria]

Then why are some darkspawn stronger than my party?

You tell me. Why was Oghren getting hit 9/10 times with 150 defense? Is it the mods you're using? All I can tell you is that in three separate locations, master survival was showing regular darkspawn at ~2 levels below my warden.

[Haexpane]

Tirigon wrote...
If you talk about how to make a truly perfect game

No such thing, no point in talking about that or the fountain of youth or santa claus.

This thread is specifically about level scaling in DA as compared to other RPGs or a possible new system

[Haexpane]

Tirigon wrote...
 

In Borderlands, I like the CO-op, and I loved the respec, but the leveling, imo, sucked because enemies didn´t scale with you but were on fixed levels. Effectively that meant that always 95% of the game were either too easy or impossible.

Borderlands does indeed have that problem, but the problem is that it is OPEN WORLD with fixed levels.  Those things don't go together well in a free roaming non party based RPG that has a "crack quest" method of story telling.

Because you can wander around and get quests anywhere, people will do that. 

What works better in Open RPGs is to have the model of

Noob town - low level mobs around
further from town, harder the enemies
Dungeons?  harder yet, closer to the boss, harder the enemy.

[Haexpane]

Malanek999 wrote...

 
I don't quite agree with that. I thought the level of challenge throughout most of the game was good. The anti-scaling just meant it was always best to do things in a certain order. I liked borderlands, it worked in the genre where hellgate london flopped.

If you didnt do things in order like me, you end up way too high level for the main quest.  I'm the type to run off and explore areas, in BL you are actually penalized for that because the Main Quest ends up being too easy if you do DLC or side quests too much.

But BL is another topic altogether, it's barely an RPG

[Harley_Dude]

Any of you try doing the Orzammar quest after Lothering? It is near impossible to get past the first group of enemies since you'll be around level 7. The mage one hit kills you with fireball before you can select any talent. The game implies you can do any of the main quests in any order but clearly the designers wanted to stear you down a certain path. Maybe the cheapest skill tome is in the Dalish camp for a reason?

[soteria]

Well, that's because enemies have a minimum level, and I understand Orzammar is level 10+. I've never actually taken a level 7 warden there with master survival to check what level the thugs are to confirm it, but you're right that they're stronger than anything else you can find at that level (barring a revenant).

[Tirigon]

soteria wrote...

Well, that's because enemies have a minimum level, and I understand Orzammar is level 10+. I've never actually taken a level 7 warden there with master survival to check what level the thugs are to confirm it, but you're right that they're stronger than anything else you can find at that level (barring a revenant).

It´s doable, though.

Admittedly, my leveling was too good, I was level 8 after Lothering, and while the first soldier group took a few attempts until I managed it it was beatable.

Orzammar first is actually rather good because you get some of the best equipment and lots of level-ups - even more so with Improved atmosphere.

Key of the City and Lifegiver on Lv 8 are quite powerfulB)B)

[B3taMaxxx]

The Harley Dude wrote...

Any of you try doing the Orzammar quest after Lothering? It is near impossible to get past the first group of enemies since you'll be around level 7. The mage one hit kills you with fireball before you can select any talent. The game implies you can do any of the main quests in any order but clearly the designers wanted to stear you down a certain path. Maybe the cheapest skill tome is in the Dalish camp for a reason?

 Nightmare solo mage; Killing mercs at Orzammar after loathering;  Sleep on all/Horror on Mage = Dead/Forcefield on Elite/Fireball & Cone of Cold the rest  = Key to the City early

[Harley_Dude]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

The Harley Dude wrote...

Any of you try doing the Orzammar quest after Lothering? It is near impossible to get past the first group of enemies since you'll be around level 7. The mage one hit kills you with fireball before you can select any talent. The game implies you can do any of the main quests in any order but clearly the designers wanted to stear you down a certain path. Maybe the cheapest skill tome is in the Dalish camp for a reason?

 Nightmare solo mage; Killing mercs at Orzammar after loathering;  Sleep on all/Horror on Mage = Dead/Forcefield on Elite/Fireball & Cone of Cold the rest  = Key to the City early

Nightmare solo!? If I want to be brutalized I just play COD on veteran. On nightmare I was able to stealth kill the mage with a my rogue. Morrigan did that sleep/horror combo on the melee fighters. It took several attempts though. I ended up lowering the difficulty later in the Deep Roads because Morrigan kept killing me with walking bomb. Geat spell on normal, not so much on hard or nightmare.

[Paromlin]

There's hope. Bioware is showing us with DA2 that they're not afraid of change so I'm positive they'll revisit this abomination called level scaling.

Not just because level scaling is more senseless than... a senseless spammer, but because it's simply not fun. I would say that the majority feels the same way about level scaling, as well. At least that's what I gathered from polls on this and other forums (current situation here: "yes, level scaling is good: 14 votes", "no, level scaling sucks: 24 votes"). Coupled with the 69% that find level scaling an abomination, on another site, it's pretty indicative.

If Bioware really thinks they can't do without level scaling (and I'm sure that's not the case), I hope they'll scale the number and not the level. That's a much lesser evil between the two evils. I mean, scaling the number of enemies here and there, within reason of course. And no, I don't think +1 or 2 archers and melee warriors here and there would be a problem from a technical point of view. You guys remember the massive battles in DAO, right?
What number scaling preserves, unlike level scaling, is the uniqueness of enemies. The dreaded rogue "Balan Talalak" won't yo-yo between level 5 or 15 depending on my level, he'll be the same, but will have more allies, which is acceptable and believable.

I have faith in you, Bioware. I don't want to be disappoint!

[Tirigon]

Paromlin wrote...

Not just because level scaling is more senseless than... a senseless spammer, but because it's simply not fun. I would say that the majority feels the same way about level scaling, as well.

The big problem with this is that it really is only a personal opinion. And even if the polls show that a majority dislikes scaling, the fact that almost every new game has it shows that it seems to be best for the majority. If most people would dislike it, it wouldn´t be imlemented for the sake of profit.

[Haexpane]

playthrough 2 I just noticed that the Darkspawn are 1 hit kills after landsmeet, is that by design? It's amusing yet annoying to have my archers and mages 1hit kill the darkspawn w/ range attacks while the melee run after them, and by the time they reach the mob, it's dead.

[FieryDove]

Haexpane wrote...

playthrough 2 I just noticed that the Darkspawn are 1 hit kills after landsmeet, is that by design? It's amusing yet annoying to have my archers and mages 1hit kill the darkspawn w/ range attacks while the melee run after them, and by the time they reach the mob, it's dead.

Check the level they spawn at...

I noticed in awakening, right at the beginning ds were spawning at lvl 13, I was 24. All through the game I noticed whole groups spawning at 11-15...I am 30 now. So that's why I can fight bare-fisted if I so choose too. The level scaling needs to work properly, the floor/ceiling needs to be adjusted no less than -2 and on lower difficulties no higher than +2...

Imho

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...

playthrough 2 I just noticed that the Darkspawn are 1 hit kills after landsmeet, is that by design? It's amusing yet annoying to have my archers and mages 1hit kill the darkspawn w/ range attacks while the melee run after them, and by the time they reach the mob, it's dead.

It´s by design. Only elite are regular foes, the common darkspawn are meant to be 1hit kills. Apparentl it´s supposed to give you a feeling of power. Imo it only gave a feeling of boredom, but I guess taste´s are different.

[B3taMaxxx]

B3taMaxxx wrote...
 Nightmare solo mage; Killing mercs at Orzammar after loathering;  Sleep on all/Horror on Mage = Dead/Forcefield on Elite/Fireball & Cone of Cold the rest  = Key to the City early

The Harley Dude wrote...
Nightmare solo!? If I want to be brutalized I just play COD on veteran. On nightmare I was able to stealth kill the mage with a my rogue. Morrigan did that sleep/horror combo on the melee fighters. It took several attempts though. I ended up lowering the difficulty later in the Deep Roads because Morrigan kept killing me with walking bomb. Geat spell on normal, not so much on hard or nightmare.

 You wrote about the difficulties getting to Orzammar in early game, I was simply showing you a spell list that can be done by a solo mage on nightmare at an early level/after Loathering. It won't work every time, you may have to reload once due to ridiculous resistances found on nightmare.

 I've found nightmare to be far easier solo, though the first few quest can be tricky. Now you mention COD Veteren; lets be honest, it's a joke. While 4's campaign was fun, the only progression you achieve is by running slightly ahead of your AI teammates, then rinse and repeat. No "real" tactical approach there, and definately not brutal.

 To be honest, the best level scaling I've seen was Too Human. Proggressive scaling always keeping enemies at your level or a few higher. Sacred II's scaling was good to, because it scaled based on your ability; the more time you level without death the higher the enemy level will increase in comparison to your. If you can level long enough without dying the loot drops become quite decent, due to enemies being 6-7 or 10 levels above you; but of course this would require  RANDOM LOOT DROPS, which is few and far between with BW's games.

Modifié par B3taMaxxx, 23 juillet 2010 - 01:44 .

[Haexpane]

Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

playthrough 2 I just noticed that the Darkspawn are 1 hit kills after landsmeet, is that by design? It's amusing yet annoying to have my archers and mages 1hit kill the darkspawn w/ range attacks while the melee run after them, and by the time they reach the mob, it's dead.

It´s by design. Only elite are regular foes, the common darkspawn are meant to be 1hit kills. Apparentl it´s supposed to give you a feeling of power. Imo it only gave a feeling of boredom, but I guess taste´s are different.

In the "traditional" non scaling world, the Darkspawn at the battle WITH the Archdemon would be the highest level darkspawn.

The darkspawn trickling in at the early levels of the game would be the lowest level.  I think this is an example of why scaling doesn't work.  The easiest part of the game is the final level... something is not right about that

[B3taMaxxx]

Haexpane wrote...

The easiest part of the game is the final level... something is not right about that

 Easy, but painstakingly long and boring. I don't think leveling even plays into this misguided battle.

[soteria]

No, it was pretty easy even at level 13. It's just not a hard battle.

[Tirigon]

Haexpane wrote...


In the "traditional" non scaling world, the Darkspawn at the battle WITH the Archdemon would be the highest level darkspawn.

The darkspawn trickling in at the early levels of the game would be the lowest level.  I think this is an example of why scaling doesn't work.  The easiest part of the game is the final level... something is not right about that

Wrong.

It´s not a fault in the scaling - the emissaries and alphas ARE scaled, and they are the strongest at the final level - , it´s a bow to all the non-scaling guys who want to become imba in the end. You can feel imba by oneshotting half of the enemies.

[Wardawg1001]

Haexpane wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Haexpane wrote...

playthrough 2 I just noticed that the Darkspawn are 1 hit kills after landsmeet, is that by design? It's amusing yet annoying to have my archers and mages 1hit kill the darkspawn w/ range attacks while the melee run after them, and by the time they reach the mob, it's dead.

It´s by design. Only elite are regular foes, the common darkspawn are meant to be 1hit kills. Apparentl it´s supposed to give you a feeling of power. Imo it only gave a feeling of boredom, but I guess taste´s are different.

In the "traditional" non scaling world, the Darkspawn at the battle WITH the Archdemon would be the highest level darkspawn.

The darkspawn trickling in at the early levels of the game would be the lowest level.  I think this is an example of why scaling doesn't work.  The easiest part of the game is the final level... something is not right about that

How oblvious are you? The end where you plow through all the darkspawn with 1 hit kills is the one place where they take OUT the level scaling (presumably to give you that feeling of 'oh god I'm so powerful now look at me 1 shot these guys wooooo!'), which results in that abomination of a battle.

[Vandrayke]

I'm with a few others in that I don't mind limited level scaling but I despise item scaling.
I guess one thing I would like is to get rid of all the garbage random loot and maybe have fewer, more significant drops throughout the game. That way item scaling wouldn't be as obvious. But lots of people love lugging piles and piles of junk to merchants and selling it. So I dunno.
I also think the whole idea of "leveling up" needs to be torn down and rebuilt. I don't know what the answer is when it comes to character progression, but the old model is tired, in my opinion.
I guess that in DA:O, the level scaling was done pretty well. I mean, I knew it was there, but it was transparent enough that I wasn't thinking about it at all until the second or third playthrough.

Modifié par Vandrayke, 25 juillet 2010 - 08:46 .

[Skiffee]

Suprez30 wrote...

My warden was climbing the frostback mountain the other day ...
At the top he realized that the high dragon was level 20 and he was only level 10.So my Warden declimbed the frostback mountain and started to kill wolve outside lothering for 4 day until he was powerful enough for the dragon.

He learned .. Each wolve gave him fighting information! . Now he's ready for the dragon
Killing wolve pay!



Level and abilities are present for gameplay purpose and has nothing to do with the story.

This made me laugh my ass off, thank you for explaining it to the idiots (=

Modifié par Skiffee, 25 juillet 2010 - 08:52 .