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BIOWARE Has Always Been Two Steps Ahead, but Will Dragon Age II Suffer: Story Dearth, Dialogue Losses, Severed Emotional Connection with Our Companions (Like in DAO: Awakening?)


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#1
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Reading the timeline via Game Informer, which I am very familiar with, for it is explained via codex entries in both DAO and DAO: Awakening, is nothing new to me.

Hence, seeing this (what I already know so far about the world of Thedas) in retrospect somewhat reassures me in some way. My initial thought upon seeing the announcement for DA II, though the information provided was scant, was excitement; I saw DA II as advancement into the Dragon Age universe...  I saw it as an evolvement of a game that is loved by many and me.

"Fight like a Spartan," stood out for me because DAO is the best RPG that I have played thus far (though I possess all games produced by Bioware).  I enjoy a game that places me right into its world, that is engaging, that gives me control (to some extent, due to limitations in game time constraint, including certain nuances, like going to sleep, bathing, following an NPC to his or her abode, etc.) over the world and how such a world is shaped. 

I have played the Elder Scrolls, WoW, Lara Croft, the updated, gun toting, gal, Dark Angel, Alias, Heavenly Sword, and the upcoming TERA Online, is very promising.   However, no game has captured my interest as DAO has (Well, Jade Empire is truly awesome; the Martial Art combat style is incredible, and the
tête a tête [heart-to-heart] is endearing. Sky I adore you!).

DAO, as I have stated in other forums that is exploring DA II, is strategic, the story is well developed, though some of the responses are constricted, due to some limitations, I understand, but has not deemed the merit of this wonderful game.  Nonetheless, the codex entries fill in the void; through them, we receive, delicious “goodies,” additional information about Thedas.  Even then, we could use our imaginations using the responses provided to us, to our character as she or he interacts with other NPCs and companions. The entries are lyrical, philosophical, poetical, mystical... a true breath of fresh air.

So, I did not see restricting the character we can play as a problem.  I am a female, but I play male characters as well; it is required in DAO if you want to unlock certain achievements.  Thus playing a male character was a minor factor.  As Game Informer provides us with a bit more details, I realized that there is a very close similarity with Mass Effect (ME).

I attempted to play Mass Effect 2.  I stopped at the first mission, for I could not truly make my Warrior Femme Shepard my own creation.   Maybe it would be a bit more interesting if at close range, I had the ability to draw either a dagger or a sword to quickly dispatch that enemy. 

The Voice, though, it is something that can breathe life into a character, using more than one voice actor for each character, just like we have in DAO; our character does speak when interacting with the environment: entering combat, opening locks and doors; remember we have the option to choose how our character will sound during character creation.  There are several options to do so, and each race has their own distinctive voice: wise, mystical, suave, violent, and so on.

However, this is a daunting task and very expensive too, to have a voice for each race and for them to speak the responses as they are now in DAO.  The thought that came to mind is that there should be a consensus: to allow our characters to speak during a pivotal moment.  Do not allow another to make the speech for us, but allow us to do so.  It is only right that she/he does after all.  We accomplish the mission; why not allow us to speak when it is necessary?!

So, this is how I see DA II.  I did not see that it would take away our freedom; I see improvements as far as graphics and our interaction with the environment, i.e., to jump, swim or climb.  I saw Hawke as another chapter in this game, and that our Grey Warden will resurface in DA III or an expansion. After all, our Grey Warden will still be alive, and anything is feasible in a fantasy world and an explanation could be given, just like in the DLC: Return to Ostagar.

Moving DAO towards a ME like game will not work.  The dialogue wheel does not give you an in-depth look at what your character will say.  To me this is very important.   The cinematic cut scenes work to some extent in Leliana's Song, i.e., at the end of the first mission when she reports to the "Sister", in the Chantry if you chose the line or phrase (I cannot fully recollect the exact choice): It is none of your business.  Therefore, no matter what she chose to say, it reflects what I desire her to say.

So, choosing a voice for our Playable Characters (as it stands currently in DAO: Origins) is not feasible at this time because it is costly; it may be possible with a later title (especially if DA II is successful), however. (Ah, the world of dreams!) 


So, as players what do we want Bioware to address in DA II?  What improvements would you like to see, such as in Stats; mouse key-binding; initial stats for rogues in particular (One concern for me is that strength is as important for rogues as dexterity, but having higher strength does not increase damage much, poison and bombs help, however.). Weapons and armor with strength added to them, another class, interacting with the environment, climbing, mounts, co-operative play, special 2-player missions, etc..

Modifié par [User Deleted], 24 septembre 2010 - 08:54 .


#2
SirGladiator

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I felt like they should've stayed with letting the player choose the same three races, and just used the same voice for each race. Granted normally there's a difference in human/elf/dwarf voices, but I'd rather they just pick a really good voice and let the player have a dwarf or elf that sounds different from the norm, its not like all elves or dwarves sound exactly the same anyway. It sure beats having no option to play an elf/dwarf at all. They could just say that the PC sounds the way he does because he grew up among humans and it was part of his effort to fit in.

#3
OriginsIsBest

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I agree 99%

#4
Grommash94

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SirGladiator wrote...

I felt like they should've stayed with letting the player choose the same three races, and just used the same voice for each race. Granted normally there's a difference in human/elf/dwarf voices, but I'd rather they just pick a really good voice and let the player have a dwarf or elf that sounds different from the norm, its not like all elves or dwarves sound exactly the same anyway. It sure beats having no option to play an elf/dwarf at all. They could just say that the PC sounds the way he does because he grew up among humans and it was part of his effort to fit in.


Problem is, Lothering was a human village. There weren't any villagers who weren't human.

#5
TheMufflon

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Grommash94 wrote...

Problem is, Lothering was a human village. There weren't any villagers who weren't human.


Actually there were several elves there, and in the Elven Mage Origin you can tell Eadric that you're from Lothering.

#6
Daerog

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TheMufflon wrote...

Grommash94 wrote...

Problem is, Lothering was a human village. There weren't any villagers who weren't human.


Actually there were several elves there, and in the Elven Mage Origin you can tell Eadric that you're from Lothering.


There must be something about being human that has an impact on the story. That, or you can only be human because your sister is human... and a mage. So, dwarves wouldn't really work and have an npc that could be two different species/races would be more work than needed, and just having human works.

#7
TheOrtReport

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Its also a story about a rise to power, so it wouldn't really make sense for an elf as they are thought of by most as lesser beings.  As for dwarves, well I'm sure we'll find out why when more info comes.

Modifié par TheOrtReport, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:23 .


#8
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My thought on this, and it is only a speculation at this point, that if a human is chosen, his or her companions, which will decidedly be Dwarves and elves (this is the medium, I think the writers at Bioware can utilize this to retain its fan base) will influence greatly the choices she or he must make from the onset and to the height of his or her rise to power.



Of course, which dwarves or elf companions would we want to accompany this human, a city or Dalish elf or both… a casteless dwarf or a noble one, or both?


#9
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Spoiler Alert!

If you have completed the Origins story has an elf or a dwarf, the decision you make during crucial points in the game impact the outcome of the game world, especially so, towards the climax, i.e., the Landsmeet, and the Final Onslaught. 

I have a low level noble dwarf female warrior character, and one of the quests during the origin story is to decide what should become of the dwarves who decided to leave Ozammar, for whatever reason.  You could choose to have them return to their castes without losing their prior status, or retain the status quo, which is any dwarf who leaves the city looses all ties with the city state, and that they are now casteless.

I have decided that they should return home to their family with full privileges.  At level five, I do not know the ramifications for my decision/action, yet.

So, realistically, any one of the dwarves who has left for the surface could venture to any part in the Dragon Age World.  Hence, should be considered as a possible hero for DA II.

In addition, my main character who is a Dalish Elf, and whom I have completed the DAO story with has forged some drastic changes for the city elves and for her own Dalish people, wherever they may be.

Two decisions that my Dalish warrior has established during my play through of DAO that could or would allow the inclusion or an elf as the hero of DA II are these:

1.  During the siege of the Elven Alienage, Shiani, volunteered they (the elves as a whole) would fight alongside my Grey Warden, Affinity.  Self preservation for my people was paramount in my decision.  I told her that they should "find safety."  My companions, allies and I would fight the horde alone.   Hence, some city elves could have escaped to other parts of the Dragon Age universe as well (and that is keeping with the slogan with DA II, "Rise to Power by any means possible"; that means to me that any one of the races can be that hero).

2.  At the end of DAO, Queen Anora, keeping her promise to me, granted me a "boon".  I chose "land", a place where the Dalish Clan can call their own; that also meant that they were free to come to Lothering at the end of the game.  Regardless, the Dalish are always free to move to any area, though their preferences are woodland areas, which reflects their affinity to nature.

If drawing from these choices, it is too obvious that any of the races can be the hero,; remember, becoming a hero derives from sheer cunning, will power and a desire to fulfill his or her destiny, whether that leads to good or evil, neutral or center medium.

To reiterate my prior belief, I think the writers at Bioware, and the company itself, Bioware/EA, are exploring the vast wondrous universe of Dragon Age; they are many stories that can be told.  If they decide not to explore this avenue, that would surely disappoint me.

One thing that I would like Bioware/EA to keep in mind, consider or adhere to: is to keep DAO “a standalone” game in its genre and not to add other game elements (the graphics and bug fixing should definitely be addressed in either a sequel or an expansion, of course) or story from their other games into it.  This is an epic story unlike any other, one that could be the standard for all other RPGs in the DnD world.

Modifié par [User Deleted], 17 juillet 2010 - 03:41 .


#10
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SirGladiator wrote...

I felt like they should've stayed with letting the player choose the same three races, and just used the same voice for each race. Granted normally there's a difference in human/elf/dwarf voices, but I'd rather they just pick a really good voice and let the player have a dwarf or elf that sounds different from the norm, its not like all elves or dwarves sound exactly the same anyway. It sure beats having no option to play an elf/dwarf at all. They could just say that the PC sounds the way he does because he grew up among humans and it was part of his effort to fit in.


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Well, I agree that if voice is decidedly a chosen path in DA II, having the voice actors we choose during character creation to speak the lines (I reiterate, the lines as they are "now" in DAO, which are not voiced by our character (s) ) would indeed be ideal.

If Leliana's song is the forerunner (we must remain on DAO, not ME, for it is definitely a different game) in the direction of DA II as a fully-voiced cinematic cut scenes experience, then, if the lines or responses we choose from the given choices, are voiced, not deviate from, and that each race would have its own voice actors, that would be an evolvement in the wondrous world of DA II.

Can this be accomplished?  Yes.  Would we pay the extra money to buy the game (Voice Actors are professionals and therefore, expensive)?   I know I would.

Modifié par [User Deleted], 15 juillet 2010 - 08:58 .


#11
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TheOrtReport wrote...

Its also a story about a rise to power, so it wouldn't really make sense for an elf as they are thought of by most as lesser beings.  As for dwarves, well I'm sure we'll find out why when more info comes.


umm, since an elf is thought to be a lesser being wouldn't that make the rise to power greater

#12
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2papercuts wrote...

TheOrtReport wrote...

Its also a story about a rise to power, so it wouldn't really make sense for an elf as they are thought of by most as lesser beings.  As for dwarves, well I'm sure we'll find out why when more info comes.


umm, since an elf is thought to be a lesser being wouldn't that make the rise to power greater




Indeed! :)

#13
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Still, the New Greek Archetype Hawke is something to behold... I like that classical look, rendering of Sir Hawke... My problem is why use a color coded Voice wheel for DA II? The voice wheel works for me in ME2. My femme Shepard is tough, sexy and smart. So her VO responses match her perfectly.



However, there must be a consensual medium in this… especially for DAO fans who enjoy reading and exploring the given text. It is true immersion for them.


#14
Kaiser Shepard

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Could you please not type in all bold or italics? It isn't easy on the eyes like this.

#15
thenemesis77

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I think being the Warden was more for people being able to being the other races then being the Warden and it was a character that they made and they feel left out and I understand that. I hope at some point we can pick up our Warden's story in a good Expansion, I don't think that David will bring the Warden or his or her story in part 3, unless DA2 tanks.

#16
Wishpig

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Lilacs wrote...

Moving DAO towards a ME like game will not work.  The dialogue wheel does not give you an in-depth look at what your character will say.  To me this is very important.   The cinematic cut scenes work to some extent in Leliana's Song, i.e., at the end of the first mission when she reports to Marjolaine, in the Chantry if you chose the line or phrase (I cannot fully recollect the exact choice): It is none of your business.  Therefore, no matter what she chose to say, it reflects what I would want her to say.


My one prob with ME was, yes, picking something from the dialog wheel and getting a totally diffrent response then what I THOUGHT I would get. After a while I realised if I'm playing a renegade like character, I just pick the last one on the list. It was a pet peeve of mine, but mah, wat u gonna do?

But, bottom line...

It most likley will work. Infact it will prob please the majority. Casual gamer's/action gamers/console gamers are the new crowd. There's allot more of them then hardcore old school RPG gamers like myself and you. Most people don't want to read 6 sentences every other line, they just want to quickly pick one, and listen to the shepard/hawke talk. The wheel IS good for that. You don't NEED to even really read it. You pick top/middle/bottom depending on if your playing a paragon/neutral/renegade shepard.

We just gotta except the fact games are gonna be more streamlined in hopes of catoring to a larger audiance. Games like DA:2 are amazingly expensive to make I'm sure. You can't fault bioware for wanting to make money... AT THEIR JOB.

Side-note- I am purley guessing what "most people" want from experiance.

#17
AlanC9

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Wishpig wrote...
My one prob with ME was, yes, picking something from the dialog wheel and getting a totally diffrent response then what I THOUGHT I would get. After a while I realised if I'm playing a renegade like character, I just pick the last one on the list.


Didn't the manual say that the dialog options were arranged by alignment? It's not something you're supposed to have to figure out.

And as an old-school RPG gamer myself, I don't see much advantage to the full-text system. If anything, it produces more mismatches between what I'm trying to say and what the game thinks my character is saying

Modifié par AlanC9, 17 juillet 2010 - 03:16 .


#18
joriandrake

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SirGladiator wrote...

I felt like they should've stayed with letting the player choose the same three races, and just used the same voice for each race. 


this


but considering now that Hawke has a sister, I guess it was not just to cut back costs for voice acting but they were also lazy to make a dwarven and elven variant of Bethany as there happened to be a race difference in one of the NWN1 expansions depending on race choice aswell (where race choice was thus not a problem to manage)

#19
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A well-written wah wah I don't want my PC to be voiced I want to go back to the DAO dialogue - post.



Not happening. And the game won't suffer - they axed the origin system, which means the MAIN CAMPAIGN will get all the attention.

#20
Heimdall

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I believe there is a story reason that Hawke is human that we don't know about. I also believe the dialogue wheel works better for a voiced protagonist

#21
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Wishpig wrote...

Lilacs wrote...

Moving DAO towards a ME like game will not work.  The dialogue wheel does not give you an in-depth look at what your character will say.  To me this is very important.   The cinematic cut scenes work to some extent in Leliana's Song, i.e., at the end of the first mission when she reports to Marjolaine, in the Chantry if you chose the line or phrase (I cannot fully recollect the exact choice): It is none of your business.  Therefore, no matter what she chose to say, it reflects what I would want her to say.


My one prob with ME was, yes, picking something from the dialog wheel and getting a totally diffrent response then what I THOUGHT I would get. After a while I realised if I'm playing a renegade like character, I just pick the last one on the list. It was a pet peeve of mine, but mah, wat u gonna do?

But, bottom line...

It most likley will work. Infact it will prob please the majority. Casual gamer's/action gamers/console gamers are the new crowd. There's allot more of them then hardcore old school RPG gamers like myself and you. Most people don't want to read 6 sentences every other line, they just want to quickly pick one, and listen to the shepard/hawke talk. The wheel IS good for that. You don't NEED to even really read it. You pick top/middle/bottom depending on if your playing a paragon/neutral/renegade shepard.

We just gotta except the fact games are gonna be more streamlined in hopes of catoring to a larger audiance. Games like DA:2 are amazingly expensive to make I'm sure. You can't fault bioware for wanting to make money... AT THEIR JOB.

Side-note- I am purley guessing what "most people" want from experiance.



Well, you are correct in every aspect.  This is why ME2 appeals to so many and why it remains a top selling one, too and why EA focuses on it.  

The fact remains, though, that people who prefer DAO is because they want to:

1. Read what his or her PC would say.
2. Create a voice for their characters, in their minds, which allow them a greater sense of immersion.
3. They enjoy reading.

The dialogue wheel for DA II will highlight in its center the chosen responses that our PC would say as "aggressive or sarcastic" is truly a downward step, and that stands out as an insult to me (It did not happen in ME2, so why in DA II?)... Hope that is simply a rumor.  I really do.

Nonetheless, here is a direct quote from the Grey Warden site:

"We’re getting the ME2 conversation wheel, but this time instead of having some dialogue be a particular color the center of the wheel will show a symbol to show what kind of reply it is. (The article uses the examples of them being something like aggressive or sarcastic."

You can read additional information regarding DA II at the Grey Warden site; the link is provided below:  

http://greywardens.c...on-age-2-facts/

#22
errant_knight

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It feels like after Origins was released, they lost all faith in the game model and started trying to change it as quickly as possible, starting with the DLC, really. Conversation and plot went down drastically after the first two. From what people are saying about the GI article, they're saying that they can't coun't on the traditional RPG to be successful forever. Well, maybe not, but you could sure count on it for more than a handful of months.  If they planned on doing that from the beginning, it really was bait and switch, as I said more jokingly in another thread. and pisses me off royally. But I don't believe that. I think when they started the game, they were making the best RPG possible--and they did. And it sold better than anything else Bioware has done, and continues to sell well. That can only leave us with the question of 'what the hell is going on?'

Awakening seems like a precursor to what it sounds like is going to happen here. Fewer opportunities for interaction, and those being tightly controlled. No more chatting with companions at a time or place that seems right for your character. That hasn't been said, but given everything that was done in the DLC and Awakening, it seems very likely. And we won't even be able to choose our own words--third person play, instead of first.

If increased cinematics were going to be in addition to the same or more conversation and interaction, I don't think I'd have a problem with it, but the changed seem designed to make the game play faster--more 'amped up'--the opposite of what made DA:O so immersive. It has a pace that you could control, and as many thoughtful moments as action ones. Funny, I thought that was one of the best things about it, something that made me feel part of a real world, not something to be ditched at all costs.

It's impossible to draw conclusions about the story depth, it still has the same writers, which is good, but if story choices are forced on us obliquely, as in Awakening, it will still feel hollow, as it will if we can't talk to our party members as though they were real travelling companions.

There's nothing more alienating than trying to talk to a character and have them refuse. It's bad enough when it's on the road--real people don't refuse to speak because they're busy walking--and it's unforgivable in camp. 'So, here we are back at the Vigil.... How are you feeling? Go away, I'm busy.' Yeah, good friends....

The more I read of what's being said about this, the more disturbed I get. Everything points to it being a third person action game with a veneer of RPG on top.

Modifié par errant_knight, 17 juillet 2010 - 03:43 .


#23
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thenemesis77 wrote...

I think being the Warden was more for people being able to being the other races then being the Warden and it was a character that they made and they feel left out and I understand that. I hope at some point we can pick up our Warden's story in a good Expansion, I don't think that David will bring the Warden or his or her story in part 3, unless DA2 tanks.



You express my exact sentiment here.   Posted Image

#24
AlanC9

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Is full-text dialog really a key part of "the game model"?

#25
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Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Could you please not type in all bold or italics? It isn't easy on the eyes like this.



Done!  Haha Posted Image