56 réponses à ce sujet

[FieryDove]

17thknight wrote...


How is rehashing the story-telling and game mechanics of Mass Effect, which came out 3 years ago, trying "new things"? 

Perhaps it's new as in, all future games will use this so anyone can jump into any game, any platform and feel...at home? Just a thought.

[SDNcN]

17thknight wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Gotta say, I'm still not getting why you would create a game model that sold three and a half million units, and won awards, and then toss it away after one game. It just makes no sense to me.

Because they want to try new things?

Despite everyone saying it will be the Fantasy version of Mass Effect, it really seems like the team is attempting to try new things, rather than deliver the same formula again. One of the big criticisms I've seen about Bioware is that once you've played one of their games, you've played all of them.

An example would be having a number of areas/planets - that have very little to do with the main plot - that you can visit in any order. After all of them are finished you go into a tunnel all the way to endgame. That has been the structure of all of their games since Knights of the Old Republic.

How is rehashing the story-telling and game mechanics of Mass Effect, which came out 3 years ago, trying "new things"? 

You've either missed out or are just ignoring the numerous times the devs have stated the dialogue wheel will not be the same as the one present in the Mass Effect series.

[17thknight]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Is Mass Effect the only game anyone around here has played with a voiced protagonist? You people need to get out more.

If you don't see the similiarities then you're being intentionally obtuse. Especially as both games have the same development company and are both RPG's. If you had to pick 1 RPG that Dragon Age 2 is most similar to then I don't think you'd be looking at Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, or Oblivion. You'd be looking at Mass Effect.

FieryDove wrote...

Perhaps it's new as in, all future
games will use this so anyone can jump into any game, any platform and
feel...at home? Just a thought.

Well I
doubt that. But why would anyone want that? Half
the arguments in favor of the changes are that they are "moving
forward". Using old systems is not moving forwards. Besides, DA:O was not billed as looking forwards, it was supposed
to look backwards...to Baldur's Gate.

Modifié par 17thknight, 15 juillet 2010 - 06:33 .

[17thknight]

SDNcN wrote...

You've either missed out or are just ignoring the numerous times the devs have stated the dialogue wheel will not be the same as the one present in the Mass Effect series.

They can say that all they want, but it is still:
A set of overly-paraphrased conversations that leave you with no real idea of what your character will say or do when you click on them.

The funadmentals remain the same because they're using it for the same reason they used it in Mass Effect: to remove text from teh screen. This is the same reason that it is a flawed system.

Modifié par 17thknight, 15 juillet 2010 - 06:35 .

[SDNcN]

17thknight wrote...

They can say that all they want, but it is still:
A set of overly-paraphrased conversations that leave you with no real idea of what your character will say or do when you click on them.

The funadmentals remain the same because they're using it for the same reason they used it in Mass Effect: to remove text from teh screen. This is the same reason that it is a flawed system.

Is that really a problem inherent in the Dialogue wheel or just how the Mass Effect team implemented it?

And it isn't removing text from the screen, there is a toggle for subtitles.

[Ladybright]

17thknight wrote...


How is rehashing the story-telling and game mechanics of Mass Effect, which came out 3 years ago, trying "new things"? 

It is not an exact copy of the Mass Effect system. One of the criticisms levelled at ME was that the 3-4 word summary sometimes didn't match what was said, so Shep's dialogue sometimes came out of left field. This will have a tone indicator, which is an improvement on the system. It is not rehashing.

Additionally, this system is relatively new to Bioware, and the implementation will be a cross between ME and DA:O and something new.

I, for one, welcome our new, voice-acted overlords.

[17thknight]

SDNcN wrote...

Is that really a problem inherent in the Dialogue wheel or just how the Mass Effect team implemented it?

And it isn't removing text from the screen, there is a toggle for subtitles.

No, I mean they intend to remove text from the screen so you "don't have to read what the character is about to say, for a more 'cinematic' experience." This is a result of having a voice protagonist, of course. 

However, that reasoning is terribly flawed because it assumes that we don't want to know what our character is about to say or do.

We do want to know how our character is going to react. The character is meant to be "us". That's the point of roleplaying. It isn't watching a movie, it isn't a "cinematic" experience, it's a Role-Playing experience. So when you have no clue what your character is about to do or say it's  terribly jarring when you pick a response and they act wildly differently than what you thought was going to happen. It happened repeatedly in Mass Effect, but never in DA:O because you always knew exactly what your character was saying and doing when you picked an option, there was no ambiguity.

[Bryy_Miller]

TheMadCat wrote...

MajorStranger wrote...

Bioware is no Nintendo, They know the past was great, but for the future to be greater they need to evolve or they will always be stuck with the same crap three decade before.

BioWare only wishes they could be Nintendo right now.

Seriously. Nintendo may always go back to the well, but they always find new ways of innovation in their games.

[17thknight]

Ladybright wrote...
It is not an exact copy of the Mass Effect system. One of the criticisms levelled at ME was that the 3-4 word summary sometimes didn't match what was said, so Shep's dialogue sometimes came out of left field. This will have a tone indicator, which is an improvement on the system.

Except Mass Effect ALSO had a "tone" system. If something was upper right, or blue, it was "paragon" or "good". Lower-right/red was "bad" or "renegade". People were still, very often, completely caught off guard by the replies. There are instances where both paraphrasings for both options are the same words, except highlighted in different colors.

Indicating "mood" doesn't do much to help. For instance, let's say you have a character response of  "This ends now!" with mood "Angry." What is your character going to say? What is he going to do? Will he start killing people?  Give a speech? Tiny blurbs do not lend themselves to adequately describing long sentences, moods, and actions. Imagine reading a book where every sentence was 2-3 words long. It would be jumbled nonsense.

When you paraphrase long responses and actions to 3-4 words you completely lose any sense of nuance, subtletly, or knowledge as to what your character is really going to do.

[SDNcN]

17thknight wrote...

No, I mean they intend to remove text from the screen so you "don't have to read what the character is about to say, for a more 'cinematic' experience." This is a result of having a voice protagonist, of course. 

However, that reasoning is terribly flawed because it assumes that we don't want to know what our character is about to say or do.

We do want to know how our character is going to react. The character is meant to be "us". That's the point of roleplaying. It isn't watching a movie, it isn't a "cinematic" experience, it's a Role-Playing experience. So when you have no clue what your character is about to do or say it's  terribly jarring when you pick a response and they act wildly differently than what you thought was going to happen. It happened repeatedly in Mass Effect, but never in DA:O because you always knew exactly what your character was saying and doing when you picked an option, there was no ambiguity.

And like Ladybright mentioned, they will include mechanisms to make sure you understand what your character is about to do. As long as the paraphrased version is close enough to the extended version spoken by the character, I really don't see it as a major problem.

If you choose to say  "Then you must die!" which has a fist indicator in the middle of the wheel, then you shouldn't be that suprised when your character pulls out a knife and shanks a man.

[17thknight]

SDNcN wrote...

And like Ladybright mentioned, they will include mechanisms to make sure you understand what your character is about to do. As long as the paraphrased version is close enough to the extended version spoken by the character, I really don't see it as a major problem.

If you choose to say  "Then you must die!" which has a fist indicator in the middle of the wheel, then you shouldn't be that suprised when your character pulls out a knife and shanks a man.

That's not good enough. You should flat out have something saying "[Attack him]" next to the words. You should have all the words that are about to be spoken available to you before you pick any response. Paraphrasings are inherrently flawed in any RPG .

There should be no possibility of "surprise".

[SDNcN]

17thknight wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

And like Ladybright mentioned, they will include mechanisms to make sure you understand what your character is about to do. As long as the paraphrased version is close enough to the extended version spoken by the character, I really don't see it as a major problem.

If you choose to say  "Then you must die!" which has a fist indicator in the middle of the wheel, then you shouldn't be that suprised when your character pulls out a knife and shanks a man.

That's not good enough. You should flat out have something saying "[Attack him]" next to the words. You should have all the words that are about to be spoken available to you before you pick any response. Paraphrasings are inherrently flawed in any RPG .

There should be no possibility of "surprise".

If someone plays that example and is actually surpised by their character stabbing someone, then wow.

[Massadonious1]

17thknight wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

Is Mass Effect the only game anyone around here has played with a voiced protagonist? You people need to get out more.

If you had to pick 1 RPG that Dragon Age 2 is most similar to then I don't think you'd be looking at Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate 2, or Oblivion. You'd be looking at Mass Effect.

Considering the most important, and quite frankly, one of the only solid things we know about DA2 at the moment is that it has a single, voiced, protagonist, I'd be looking at a bunch of other games as well.

Mass Effect is simply the easiest to compare it to. And I'm willing to bet it has less to do with the fact that there's going to be VO (something that probably would of been done in Origins had they had the development time/and or budget to voice them all) and more with a unrational fear of the game following in ME2's footsteps and somehow becoming "less" of an RPG.

[17thknight]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Considering the most important, and quite frankly, one of the only solid things we know about DA2 at the moment is that it has a single, voiced, protagonist, I'd be looking at a bunch of other games as well

And the conversation wheel. And no race choices (only human). And a voiced protagonist who is referred to only by their last name constantly. And well...basically it's a lot like Mass Effect. Wildly different setting and plot, but that's like saying Planescape: Torment is nott very similar to Baldur's Gate, which would be silly.

[SDNcN]

17thknight wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

Considering the most important, and quite frankly, one of the only solid things we know about DA2 at the moment is that it has a single, voiced, protagonist, I'd be looking at a bunch of other games as well

And the conversation wheel. And no race choices (only human). And a voiced protagonist who is referred to only by their last name constantly. And well...basically it's a lot like Mass Effect. Wildly different setting and plot, but that's like saying Planescape: Torment is nott very similar to Baldur's Gate, which would be silly.

Planescape: Torment isn't very similar to Baldur's Gate. It has a fixed protagonist, less focus on combat, no main character death, more complex skill checks, alignment checks, and more involved dialogue.

Modifié par SDNcN, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:00 .

[17thknight]

SDNcN wrote...

Planescape: Torment isn't very similar to Baldur's Gate. It has a fixed protagonist, less focus on combat, no no main character death, more complex skill checks, alignment checks, and more involved dialogue.

Oh lord. Are you serious with this post? Planescape Torment is exceptionally similar to Baldur's Gate.

It uses the infinity Engine, same number of characters, same basic game mechanics, same dialogue system, same .... well ... everything except story, setting, and a slightly altered UI that still allows you to do the exact same things while being aesthetically different.

I'm literally torn between laughing and crying that you are actually trying to argue this point just to bolster your own. Hey, and Icewind Dale's wildly different from Baldur's Gate, why not. Whatever.

Modifié par 17thknight, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:04 .

[SDNcN]

17thknight wrote...

SDNcN wrote...

Planescape: Torment isn't very similar to Baldur's Gate. It has a fixed protagonist, less focus on combat, no no main character death, more complex skill checks, alignment checks, and more involved dialogue.

Oh lord. Are you serious with this post? Planescape Torment is exceptionally similar to Baldur's Gate.

It uses the infinity Engine, same number of characters, same basic game mechanics, same dialogue system, same .... well ... everything except story, setting, and a slightly altered UI that still allows you to do the exact same things while being aesthetically different.

I'm literally torn between laughing and crying that you are actually trying to argue this ponti just to bolster your own. Hey, why not, let's go argue about the color of the sky next.

Did you actually play Planescape: Torment?

[17thknight]

SDNcN wrote...

If someone plays that example and is
actually surpised by their character stabbing someone, then wow.

Also,
this post is, in no way, a defense for them not including every single
word that your character is goign to speak with their subsequent actions
in parentheses. You should always know exactly what they will say and
do, period. No ambiguity, no surprise, none. It happened incessantly in
Mass Effect and if they don't include the full phrases in this game then
it will happen in DA2.

SDNcN wrote...


Did you actually play Planescape: Torment?

I beat it, Baldur's Gate 2, and the entire Icewind Dale trilogy over the summer just for kicks. Each for the...who knows...10th time?

So yeah, sure, why not, they're wildly different. Icewind Dale is super different from Baldur's Gate also, sure, why not,. whatever. You're being intentionally obtuse, arguing when you know you are wrong, to try and bolster a point that you were trying to make. Or you're a troll.

Modifié par 17thknight, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:10 .

[Massadonious1]

17thknight wrote...
And the conversation wheel. 

Because the presentation is clearly what's most important. You can't compare DA2 with any other game with a conversation system because it's not.....a wheel.

Just admit that ME is easier to compare to so we can move on. I tire of your ignorance.

[SDNcN]

17thknight wrote...

SDNcN wrote...


Did you actually play Planescape: Torment?

I beat it, Baldur's Gate 2, and the entire Icewind Dale trilogy over the summer just for kicks. Each for the...who knows...10th time?

So yeah, sure, why not, they're wildly different. Icewind Dale is super different from Baldur's Gate also, sure, why not,. whatever. You're being intentionally obtuse, arguing when you know you are wrong, to try and bolster a point that you were trying to make.

 In Planescape you can complete most of the game through dialogue and various skill checks versus resorting combat like in Baldur's Gate. They have the same engine, but different implementation and focus. The fact that you can't tell the difference tells me you really didn't understand either game.

Edit: Kind of like you don't 'get' DA:2 can use the same dialogue wheel as Mass Effect without suffering from the same shortcomings.

Modifié par SDNcN, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:14 .

[17thknight]

Massadonious1 wrote...
Because the presentation is clearly what's most important. You can't compare DA2 with any other game with a conversation system because it's not.....a wheel.

Just admit that ME is easier to compare to so we can move on. I tire of your ignorance.

So you're saying that they are exactly the same aesthetically, they will use the exact same system to cut down on-screen words for a voiced character, they'll have a voiced PC referred to by their fixed last name, you can't pick their race only their class and gender, I mean, really, it compares to no other RPG ever made. DA2 is more similar to Mass Effect than it is any other RPG in existence.

[17thknight]

SDNcN wrote...
 In Planescape you can complete most of the game through dialogue and various skill checks versus resorting combat like in Baldur's Gate. They have the same engine, but different implementation and focus. The fact that you can't tell the difference tells me you really didn't understand either game.

Edit: Kind of like you don't 'get' DA:2 can use the same dialogue wheel as Mass Effect without suffering from the same shortcomings.

It will suffer from the same shortcoming UNLESS you are given all the dialogue your character will speak as well as their actions. It is 100% inevitable. You know it, I know it, and you are obviously just a troll from your "durrr Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are super different from each other, and Planescape too" logic. I'm actually pissed off at myself for even responding to you.

Modifié par 17thknight, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:17 .

[SDNcN]

17thknight wrote...

SDNcN wrote...
 In Planescape you can complete most of the game through dialogue and various skill checks versus resorting combat like in Baldur's Gate. They have the same engine, but different implementation and focus. The fact that you can't tell the difference tells me you really didn't understand either game.

Edit: Kind of like you don't 'get' DA:2 can use the same dialogue wheel as Mass Effect without suffering from the same shortcomings.

It will suffer from the same shortcoming UNLESS you are given all the dialogue your character will speak as well as their actions. It is 100% inevitable. You know it, I know it, and you are obviously just a troll from your "durrr Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are super different from each other, and Planescape too" logic. I'm actually pissed off at myself for even responding to you.

Only for people who don't get "Then you must die!" + Fist indicator = Your character kills a guy. There is always reload I guess.

[17thknight]

SDNcN wrote...

Only for people who don't get "Then you must die!" + Fist indicator = Your character kills a guy. There is always reload I guess.

Welcome to exactly what people were decrying about Mass Effect 1 and 2. Sometimes it would mean you kill them...sometimes it would mean a harsh speech. Who knows! You want an example? See: The Quarian and Elcor merchants. It was horribly implemented.

You still have zero defense for why you should NOT allow players to see every single word the character is going to say as well as their actions. You shouldn't have to buy a strategy guide just so that you can look up a conversation and think "Well hell, aam I about to bribe this guy or gut him?"

[RunCDFirst]

17thknight wrote...

Except Mass Effect ALSO had a "tone" system. If something was upper right, or blue, it was "paragon" or "good". Lower-right/red was "bad" or "renegade". People were still, very often, completely caught off guard by the replies. There are instances where both paraphrasings for both options are the same words, except highlighted in different colors.

Indicating "mood" doesn't do much to help. For instance, let's say you have a character response of  "This ends now!" with mood "Angry." What is your character going to say? What is he going to do? Will he start killing people?  Give a speech? Tiny blurbs do not lend themselves to adequately describing long sentences, moods, and actions. Imagine reading a book where every sentence was 2-3 words long. It would be jumbled nonsense.

When you paraphrase long responses and actions to 3-4 words you completely lose any sense of nuance, subtletly, or knowledge as to what your character is really going to do.

And it's for this reason that I argue we aren't playing our character with the dialogue wheel. Sure, we could only roleplay within the confines of the dialogue options the writers give us anyway - but the difference between paraphrasing and giving us the entire sentence is that we can make an informed choice towards our interactions and have a reasonable expectation for what the outcome will be.

We can't do whatever we want, but we can do what we want given the options. When it's paraphrased, we're playing little more than roulette. We spin the wheel and hope that the answer falls close to what our intentions for the choice are. 

Sure the dialogue wheel offers the developer a lot more options and is really the only reasonable way to incorporate a full VO at this point in time - but the detriment to the playing experience, I feel, isn't worth the pay-off.