89 réponses à ce sujet

[cipher86]

an official update that modernizes the game's core and then being re-released.  What do I mean?

Getting rid of the archaic AD&D ruleset and replacing it with something more sensible would be awesome.  Let's face it, the AD&D system gives the player NOTHING.  If you are new, you can read the rulebook, look up strategies, get yourself prepared, then play the game for five to ten hours, find out you've royalled screwed yourself, and have to restart.  Eg. As a newcomer, making a Warrior with only 3 intelligence seems like a good idea, since it allows you to spend those skill points elsewhere (what does a Warrior need intelligence for anyway?).  Hours and hours and HOURS later, you run into your first Mind Flayer.  What the heck?  How'd I die?  My health was at max.  There's nothing in my log.  Oh, it ate my brain.  Three intelligence is easy to consume.  Oops!

If you've never AD&D'd before, how would you know that the Golems are weak only to blunt weapons?  What if you only carry a magical sword on your warrior, have Minsc, a rogue, and three casters?  You could try throwing it on Easy and telling your casters to lay the smack down with their staves, but really.  There's just a lot about the game that the newcomer knows nothing about until it's too late, and even then they may not have a clue what the hell happened.

First time playthrough, buffing up 100% before going anywhere is a MUST if you don't want the game to be a reloadfest.  Having to spend 1-2 minutes before a battle buffing, resting afterwards and going through it all over again, doesn't do anything but chew up time.  This needs to be streamlined.

Pathfinding is bad.  Really bad.  Navigating narrow passageways with a six-member party leads to micromanagement and frustrations.

Mages are beasts in this game.  Now, I understand that lorewise, some mages should be this way, but every single one?  Face a group of six melee fighters and a mage, and that mage is your biggest threat - he can eradicate your entire party (including the two or three mages you bring to cheese every other encounter) in a couple seconds, unless you are buffed up and/or lucky with rolls, and otherwise just very well prepared.  Again, some mage fights should be like this, but every mage fights as if they are only a half-step down from Irenicus.  There aren't any apprentices roaming the world?

That's it really.  Don't get me wrong, I love this game, but it feels incredibly dated.  The big thing is replacing the ruleset with something more modern.  Getting that done would give this game a lot more appeal to modern gamers, even without a graphical overhaul (which this game doesn't need in the least - set it to one of the resolutions in the config and it still looks absolutely beautiful).  I'm not saying Halo fanboys would pick it up, but I'd bet that all the people whose first CRPG was DA:O would be willing to give the Baldur's Gate games a go if they saw it receive some special treatment from Bioware and then get a re-release.

Again, I love the game, as I'm sure many do, but we've gotta be honest - it could definitely benefit from a mechanical overhaul.

Modifié par cipher86, 15 juillet 2010 - 02:26 .

[Incantatar]

I wholeheartily disagree with you. I really enjoy the complexity of the game and the features of the AD&D system. As an avid p&p D&D player and master i'm disappointed how D&D 4th ed (and the DA:O system) goes the streamlined MMORPG road, which you seem to enjoy more. I also think that the Infinity Engine is superior to Aurora and its derivatives. The strategy aspect of BG2 in its possibilities and complexity is not rivaled by modern crpgs. Although TOEE was an even better strategy D&D game it lacked in every other way.



Pathfinding is not that bad (you can up it in BGconfig). All the other points you mention are no disantvantages in my eyes.

The classes in D&D have different balance curves and the spellcasters will outpace all the others later on, while very weak at the beginning. I like that concept and think it's more than adequate for high fantasy game worlds.

The difficulty of the game is based on its complexity. For me and others who played the game more than two times it becomes laughable easy. Its all about knowledge. With the difficulty setting on easy, i'm pretty sure not even the noobiest player needs to buff before every fight. Many people nowadays play BG with SCS and/or are no-reloading, so i'm not sure your plead for more streamlining and lower difficulty would attract most of the BG Fans in the slightest.

[cipher86]

Incantatar wrote...
Many people nowadays play BG with SCS and/or are no-reloading, so i'm not sure your plead for more streamlining and lower difficulty would attract most of the BG Fans in the slightest.

If by "many people" you mean "existing hardcore BG fans", then yes, you're correct.  But the reason I think this game needs an update is so that it will attract and hold new fans.  Sure, there are people who still love and enjoy the AD&D ruleset, but to a lot of people whose first CRPG was DA:O, BG is scary and overly complex.  There's a reason it came with a thick, nerdy manual, and there's a reason many people have "fond" memories of having their first playthrough be a reloadfest.  It's insanely difficult and incredibly deep.  I can respect that a lot of people enjoy this, but what's so bad about creating a version that has more simplified gameplay, so it doesn't take hours and hours and hours for a newcomer to have a thorough understanding of the system?

Putting the game on "Easy" is about as effective as putting DA:O on "Easy".  It strips ALL strategy from the game.  That's the wrong approach.

Of course, many hardcore BG fans will say how my proposed changes are "dumbing down" the game,or how it will destroy the legacy of a great game, but BG is not just the combat system, and having so many newcomers deterred by the overly complex and (at times) elusive combat system is a shame.

Modifié par cipher86, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:29 .

[Morbidest]

Perhaps what might help new players would be an accurate Monster Manual - or Sticky - that could give you at least a hint of what to watch out for when you design your very first PC. Over the last 11 years did anyone ever put one together?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

cipher86, you should learn how to quote properly. Incantatar never used the phrase "most people".

On topic, I too believe that BG2 shouldn't be simplified. I believe it's vital for this kind of game that you can't just come in, pop some mob heads, quit the game and get on with your life. BG2 lives because it requires you to take your time.



@Morbidest

Sure, many have tried, but to my knowledge not one correct one is among them. (of course, I'm planning on doing one myself, to further boost my ego!)

[cipher86]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

cipher86, you should learn how to quote properly. Incantatar never used the phrase "most people".
On topic, I too believe that BG2 shouldn't be simplified. I believe it's vital for this kind of game that you can't just come in, pop some mob heads, quit the game and get on with your life. BG2 lives because it requires you to take your time.

@Morbidest
Sure, many have tried, but to my knowledge not one correct one is among them. (of course, I'm planning on doing one myself, to further boost my ego!)

Many, most, not a big difference, but corrected anyway.

Noone said you need to be able to come in, pop some heads, quit, and get on with your life.  But I suppose there's no use in arguing - this board is probably filled with dinosaurs.

[Irrbloss]

cipher86 wrote...
But I suppose there's no use in arguing - this board is probably filled with dinosaurs.

That's a good argument. You've convinced me.

But other than GemRB I don't think any of this is even possible. Last I heard Bioware had said they no longer possessd the IE source code.

Modifié par Irrbloss, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:38 .

[cipher86]

Irrbloss wrote...

cipher86 wrote...
But I suppose there's no use in arguing - this board is probably filled with dinosaurs.

That's a good argument. You've convinced me.

It's generally true though - BG fans are stubborn dinosaurs who fear any change made to the game because they can't stand to see their beloved become something even slightly different.

[Ponce de Leon]

I actually find myself to agree in some parts with cipher86. Especially on the new fans (while I am sure the grizzled old veterans would criticize the "remake" should we call it this way).

But part of the problem is : if they do a more advanced version of the game... would the new fans love it because it's advanced... or because of the same reason the old fans like it? I like it because it's unique. And partially old.

Of course, BioWare not putting the series under the legacy forums... well, this might even give a minimal chance (and I am talking of chances like 0.OVER9000ZEROS...1 percent) to a brighter future for Baldur's Gate. With more fans. Although in my country (I come from Slovenia, very small, about 2 million inhabitants) every single role playing gamer who was living with games for the past 8 or so years will know Baldur's Gate and say it's one of the best ever made. In general I think BioWare is very much appreciated and liked in my country (mainly because of a gaming magazine here).

[Ponce de Leon]

cipher86 wrote...

Irrbloss wrote...
That's a good argument. You've convinced me.

It's generally true though - BG fans are stubborn dinosaurs who fear any change made to the game because they can't stand to see their beloved become something even slightly different.

While it's rough, I agree. Every future releases to BGs, will it be remake mods or even a sequel (IF!) will be heavenly attacked by the old fans. Myself being one. 
Now, we can say we are not dinosaurs, more like traditionalists, but what he said is true (perhaps not for ALL dinosaurs though )

[Irrbloss]

cipher86 wrote...

It's generally true though - BG fans are stubborn dinosaurs who fear any change made to the game because they can't stand to see their beloved become something even slightly different.

That would explain why there's so little interest in BG mods.

[cipher86]

Irrbloss wrote...

cipher86 wrote...

It's generally true though - BG fans are stubborn dinosaurs who fear any change made to the game because they can't stand to see their beloved become something even slightly different.

That would explain why there's so little interest in BG mods.

The popular BG mods change very little about the core gameplay, often making tweaks to oversights or providing fixes that Bioware never got around to doing.

As for EasyTutu, I have run into a good many BG fans who refuse to use it because of how much it upsets the difficulty in BGI - that is, it makes it much easier.

What would an update do to the original BG experience anyway?  Nothing.  You'd always have your classic BG experience to go back to, should you really despise the new experience that much.  At the very least, you could play the modern BG, then shake your stick at the kiddies and talk about how uneducated and pampered they are.  Wouldn't that be gratifying, in a way?

Modifié par cipher86, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:14 .

[cipher86]

dark-lauron wrote...
But part of the problem is : if they do a more advanced version of the game... would the new fans love it because it's advanced... or because of the same reason the old fans like it?

I think new fans would like it for the story, characters, and atmosphere.  It's my opinion that this is what makes the game unique, and the rulebook gets in the way.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

cipher86 wrote...
The popular BG mods change very little about the core gameplay, often making tweaks to oversights or providing fixes that Bioware never got around to doing.

It's like the work of a lapidary. The game is great and we can only carefully rasp certain parts that are not quite as well done as the rest.
You cannot argue that we are scared of change when clearly we change something. It's simply that we don't want certain things to change.

As for EasyTutu, I have run into a good many BG fans who refuse to use it because of how much it upsets the difficulty in BGI - that is, it makes it much easier.

Instead, mods are installed that make the game more difficult.
What does that tell you about what the BG2 fans want?

What would an update do to the original BG experience anyway?  Nothing.  You'd always have your classic BG experience to go back to, should you really despise the new experience that much.  At the very least, you could play the modern BG, then shake your stick at the kiddies and talk about how uneducated and pampered they are.  Wouldn't that be gratifying, in a way?

It's just I don't believe that there are so many things that set BG2 and modern RPGs apart.
The NPCs?
Not really. They were groundbreaking in their time, and the total romance dialogue probably still is above what you can get out of Ashley Williams & co, but other than that they are not that amazing any more.
The story?
It's good, but that alone wouldn't make people replay and replay and replay and replay the game (possibly with mods installed that alter the story as much as possible)
The villains?
Yes, Sarevok and Irenicus are both amazing, but if it comes down to it, characters of whom you can only ever hear the first lines of their dialogue (okay, a bit more with those two), and whom you can never actually see moving, who always remain a 1cm x 2cm blurry faceless thing, can probably be topped.

I believe that the gameplay and the 2D graphics with the marvelous backgrounds are much of what makes up BG2.
Change that and you change the game.

PS
Before you mention 1PP and Moinesse, I will. These don't change very much of how the world presents itself to the player.

[cipher86]

You make a lot of good points Humanoid_Taifun. The main thing I'm trying to get across isn't that the gameplay of Baldur's Gate is bad, it's that I find it to be dated.  A work of art it may have been, and to those who loved the original it will likely still be a work of art.  But to newcomers, it will feel like Old English, and a lot of the art will be lost.

It is what it is. I age and change, but the game remains the same, despite what the mods do. I have yet to see a mod adjust core principles of the game - maybe because it isn't possible, or maybe because the people who are inclined to mod BG don't want to alter the core principles.

Either way, I think it could use an upgrade. That doesn't mean it'll happen, and it doesn't mean people who love the current experience won't hate the new one, but I think it's foolish for some people to say that this game couldn't use an upgrade of any sort.  I've seen originals I love and adored get re-releases that I couldn't get into, but the fact that these companies were tailoring classic games to a new generation is a good sign.  It's art-preservation - exactly like taking the original English translation of the "Divine Comedy" and revising it - to those who love the original, it isn't necessary, but to those who want to see what the fuss is about, it practically is.

Modifié par cipher86, 15 juillet 2010 - 05:17 .

[cipher86]

Honestly, if this game had any sort of mod utility like what DA:O has, I'd go for it. But it doesn't, and I know very little about programming, so I can't. I am very tempted to look into it though, as I don't know if Bioware will ever update the game, and if it can be done, I'd do it.

Modifié par cipher86, 15 juillet 2010 - 05:25 .

[CoM Solaufein]

Its good the way it is. Thanks.

[Irrbloss]

cipher86 wrote...

The popular BG mods change very little about the core gameplay, often making tweaks to oversights or providing fixes that Bioware never got around to doing.

I don't follow. Does that mean there aren't mods that make more extensive changes? Obviously it doesn't and not all mods limit themselves to polishing the game. The mere fact none of them does what you specifically want (?) says little about the BG community.

As for EasyTutu, I have run into a good many BG fans who refuse to use it because of how much it upsets the difficulty in BGI - that is, it makes it much easier.

Let's be realistic here. The percentage of people who use Tutu/BGT in favour of vanilla BG is probably in the range of 90+%. The existence of a few people who do not like Tutu/BGT doesn't change the fact they are hugely popular mods.

[aries1001]

If you search a bit in the Projects, you will get what you're asking for - at least for BG2...

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Speaking of old English... I'm still putting of Shakespeare whom I've meant to try for the past 2 years. And then there's also LotR which I've never read on English either (though that's not really old English)...

Edit: Funny line jumps...

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 15 juillet 2010 - 10:26 .

[PicklePepperPiper]

I might just chip in and say that I am a girl in my late teens who picked up BG two years ago. And I can say quite confidently that the 2nd Ed ruleset is what makes the game - it was intended to be an accurate conversion, with a great plot to boot. Taking out what I believe is the most fundemental aspect of the game - the rules - is like, I dunno, taking the base off a pizza. Can you really still call it pizza?



There've been quite a few efforts to adapt the story of BG for other games with toolsets, like NWN, NWN2 and even Elder Scrolls V. None of them have been remotely successful because it's soon made clear that even the very plot, the items, the characters, it's all centralised around the 2nd Ed rules. Bioware made every effort to balance the game in accordance with these rules, so it would take months to re-balance the games with a different rule set. At that point, it becomes less of a conversion, more someone's opinion. For example, in NWN where a +20 weapon is allowed, how will a Carsomyr +5 fair as one of the more powerful weapons in the game?



You raise some vaild concerns - BG is not one of the more approachable games for the modern gaming market - but then, how many other 10 year old games do you see still with such a devoted fanbase? (Actually, come to think of it, there are probably a lot, I've just never taken the bother to look for them :-D)



In fact, if I were even to approach the idea of revamping this game, I'd say keep the rule set, and plug it into a gorgeous 3D setting like DA. Call me superficial, I likes prettyz :-)



-PPP

[CoM Solaufein]

AD&D is the best rule set ever. 3.x was okay, 4th ed I don't even acknowledge. AD&D is what made these games great, especially if you use to play PnP AD&D.

[Remmirath]

Some people, myself included, actually like the AD&D rules. I think they work perfectly for a computer game. Better than 3.0/3.5, certainly, and ... well, I don't even want to talk about 4th. Let's just say I don't really think of it as D&D. The fact that Baldur's Gate uses 2nd edition rules is a good thing, in my opinion. The 2nd edition rules are a large part of why I like Icewind Dale better than Icewind Dale II (and the major difference between those two games), and the rules really are a large part of a game. Changing the rules dramatically by necessity changes a good deal of other things about the game.

Making it not D&D at all wouldn't work, since you'd then really have to change the setting as well, since the whole series is deeply ingrained in the Forgotten Realms. You could do it for a mod, sure, but what it sounds like is you're saying re-release it like that, and that just wouldn't work. It would have to be some version of D&D.

If you converted it to 3rd edition rules, you'd have people complaining about the epic level rules, which are in fact rather trying without house rules. I admit that. I spend a lot of time playing epic level games, and if you don't tweak that ruleset a good deal, it's not very workable. Mages would certainly become more overpowered than they currently are in Baldur's Gate, as the weak at low levels but powerful at high levels idea still holds true and then you'd add epic spells on top of it by Throne of Bhaal.

Updating the ruleset would also not fix the '3 intelligence is a good idea' example you gave unless you used the point-buy system, which (at least in my opinion) is about the single worst change you could ever make to a game that didn't have it originally.

I'll give you that pathfinding could be better, but it's not terrible either, and (at least to me) not that big of a concern. Buffing up before big fights or in areas you don't know much about it just part of the fun, as is having to adapt your strategy for different creatures.

I don't really think the system is a problem if people look past 'it's old!' and try to get into it. True, I grew up playing AD&D, but I do certainly know other people my age or younger who didn't and still enjoy Baldur's Gate. It just takes a little getting used to, is all.

[The-Scot]

While I prefer AD&D myself, your complaints don't seem to be about that edition in particular but about the complexity any D&D based game will have.



Things like creature resistances and immunities, linear fighters and exponential wizards etc. are all part of the D&D tradition and the game is richer for it. Now how that ruleset is applied in game is another matter, as you mention things can go from being simply difficult to unbalanced and unenjoyable. Though I would stress that isn't a flaw in the game rules themselves.



Pathfinding sucks though. You get used to it about the same way you get used to riding a bike with flat tires.



The ruleset can be baffling for newcomers but isn't the added complexity part of why the game has had such an enduring legacy?



You mention the core gameplay being "dated". Obviously I disagree, but what would you suggest changing?

[cipher86]

The-Scot wrote...
You mention the core gameplay being "dated". Obviously I disagree, but what would you suggest changing?

Here's one example that I'm sure will be immediately burnt at the stake:

Instead of having Stun, Maze, Sleep, Paralysis, Fear, etc., reduce all "character lockdown" effects to one, and call it "Stun", or perhaps "Daze".  Each effect does have its own length, and some are based on the stats of the targetted character (eg. length of Maze being based on Intelligence), but for a newcomer, it's basically a bunch of "Stun" effects.  "Confuse" should still exist as its own, as should "Charm", as should status afflictions (Disease, Poison, Petrification, etc.).  I never understood the need for so many lockdown effects, and reducing it to one, even two, is one example of how I would "dumb it down" to make it more accessible.

Modifié par cipher86, 16 juillet 2010 - 02:51 .