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[Shadow_Leech07]

cipher86 wrote...

an official update that modernizes the game's core and then being re-released.  What do I mean?

Getting rid of the archaic AD&D ruleset and replacing it with something more sensible would be awesome.  Let's face it, the AD&D system gives the player NOTHING.  If you are new, you can read the rulebook, look up strategies, get yourself prepared, then play the game for five to ten hours, find out you've royalled screwed yourself, and have to restart.

This should happen in most games should it not? If you don't know what a fork is in chess, how can you learn to avoid it?

Eg. As a newcomer, making a Warrior with only 3 intelligence seems like a good idea, since it allows you to spend those skill points elsewhere (what does a Warrior need intelligence for anyway?).  Hours and hours and HOURS later, you run into your first Mind Flayer.  What the heck?  How'd I die?  My health was at max.  There's nothing in my log.  Oh, it ate my brain.  Three intelligence is easy to consume.  Oops!

Well in Baldur's Gate, it compensates your main character's weakness with other party members. You could have your other more higher intelligent members take the hit, or summons for that matter. Baldur's Gate is a party system so this allows great leeway in how you develop your main character.

If you've never AD&D'd before, how would you know that the Golems are weak only to blunt weapons?  What if you only carry a magical sword on your warrior, have Minsc, a rogue, and three casters?  You could try throwing it on Easy and telling your casters to lay the smack down with their staves, but really.  There's just a lot about the game that the newcomer knows nothing about until it's too late, and even then they may not have a clue what the hell happened.

True there is a learning curve. What you see as unnecessary complexity, others see as diversity.

First time playthrough, buffing up 100% before going anywhere is a MUST if you don't want the game to be a reloadfest.  Having to spend 1-2 minutes before a battle buffing, resting afterwards and going through it all over again, doesn't do anything but chew up time.  This needs to be streamlined.

There are some battles in the game which can be tedious, but these battles can be avoided.

Pathfinding is bad.  Really bad.  Navigating narrow passageways with a six-member party leads to micromanagement and frustrations.

I would disagree.

Mages are beasts in this game.  Now, I understand that lorewise, some mages should be this way, but every single one?  Face a group of six melee fighters and a mage, and that mage is your biggest threat - he can eradicate your entire party (including the two or three mages you bring to cheese every other encounter) in a couple seconds, unless you are buffed up and/or lucky with rolls, and otherwise just very well prepared.  Again, some mage fights should be like this, but every mage fights as if they are only a half-step down from Irenicus.  There aren't any apprentices roaming the world?

I can understand your frustration, Baldur's Gate seems to place all it's tactical strategy in wizards.

That's it really.  Don't get me wrong, I love this game, but it feels incredibly dated.  The big thing is replacing the ruleset with something more modern.  Getting that done would give this game a lot more appeal to modern gamers, even without a graphical overhaul (which this game doesn't need in the least - set it to one of the resolutions in the config and it still looks absolutely beautiful).  I'm not saying Halo fanboys would pick it up, but I'd bet that all the people whose first CRPG was DA:O would be willing to give the Baldur's Gate games a go if they saw it receive some special treatment from Bioware and then get a re-release.

But what's the point in turning Baldur's Gate into Dragon Age? Bioware has certainly studied it's target market and has learned to reach out to a much broader audience. Now I personally have not played Dragon Age, but I have played Neverwinter Nights(Platinum) and I did not spend very long playing it. I probably suffered from the same problems you have, not knowing the system at all, and not finding any fun in the game at all.

[Remmirath]

cipher86 wrote...

Instead of having Stun, Maze, Sleep,
Paralysis, Fear, etc., reduce all "character lockdown" effects to one,
and call it "Stun", or perhaps "Daze".  Each effect does have its own
length, and some are based on the stats of the targetted character (eg.
length of Maze being based on Intelligence), but for a newcomer, it's
basically a bunch of "Stun" effects.  "Confuse" should still exist as
its own, as should "Charm", as should status afflictions (Disease,
Poison, Petrification, etc.).  I never understood the need for so many
lockdown effects, and reducing it to one, even two, is one example of
how I would "dumb it down" to make it more accessible.

Fear doesn't do the same thing. It makes people run around aimlessly as opposed to standing stock still. It's more akin to Confusion, but without the chance of attacking party members.
Maze temporarily removes the character (which is different, since you can't be hit by area effects if you're not there, among other things). Sleep is ended if you attack them. Paralysis, Daze and Stun, however, I will certainly admit all do basically the same thing and it's the most like Paralysis.
All of those things have different advantages and disadvantages depending on what you're trying to accomplish with the spell.

The thing is, if you remove the number of different spells you could theoretically use for the same thing, then you also remove the element of picking which one works best for that situation (or even just which one you like better), and figuring out the best way to counter those things if the enemies are doing them.

Why do you think things have to be dumbed down for the game to be accessible? Is it not acceptable to have some games that are somewhat more difficult to understand to begin with (which I fully admit Baldur's Gate is, but I think that makes it more fun)? Is there really something wrong if somebody just doesn't happen to like a game because it's not their kind of thing, or even just doesn't like it as much as they could if it were different? 

I am really very curious why many people seem to think that way.

Personally, I'd rather have a whole bunch of very different games and be able to pick the ones I like, rather than look at many that are mechanically very similar (but not quite what I want). If you change the entire mechanical system a game is built on, you are changing a huge part of the game, and a huge part of why many people like the game.

If the goal behind this would be to get more people interested in the game, I think it'd be better served by making information readily available such that it's easier to understand to begin with than by changing the game, because by changing it you'd essentially end up with people divided between two different games with the same plot and characters.

[cipher86]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...
I can understand your frustration,
Baldur's Gate seems to place all it's tactical strategy in wizards.

For this reason, I kind of prefer the encounters in BGI.  Since it doesn't rely on mages, the encounters feel better designed, whereas in BGII, it's like they just go "We need a real challenging encounter here... let's throw a mage at em!"

To be fair, almost every encounter in BGI can be very challenging just because the party is so weak for the majority of the game, whereas in BGII, you have much better equipment and starting stats so a lot of encounters are easier.  Mages are an easy way to tip things back in the favor of the enemy very, very quickly, but I wish every mage encounter didn't play almost exactly the same.  Take down their buffs and beat on them.  I hate to use the word "gimmick", but having the mage bosses have "gimmicks" would have made their encounters significantly different from an encounter with an unnamed mage.

Halae Dral wrote...
If you change the entire mechanical system a game is built on, you are changing a huge part of the game, and a huge part of why many people like the game.

Fallout 3 can be three different games to three different people with mods.  I didn't enjoy the original much, but once I loaded up MMM and a couple minor tweaks to go with it, I was having a blast.

Yes, updating the game in a way that "dumbs it down" will change the gameplay completely.  Yes, you would have people who prefer one way over the other.  But you would have the option between the two.  What would make that so terrible?

For the record, I'm one of those people who plays the original Baldur's Gate without any overhaul mods.  I use the G3 fixpack and a few adjustments from the tweakpack (get rid of the annoying "You must gather your party...", unlimited ammo stacking [though I restrict myself to 40 per], and reveal town maps), but that's it.  I want it to be *mostly* intact as the original, because that's the game I know.  Playing with the BGII engine in BGI makes the game noticeably easier, which is not something I want, because I know the game and that already makes it easier.  Bringing in outside adjustments to make it easier is just silly.  I also prefer it in 640x480 resolution because it *feels* right.  This isn't a high-res cinematic adventure.  It's a hardcore, balls to the wall RPG.

But not everyone wants that.  There are definitely people who would love BG if it were simpler, like NWN2, or going further, DA:O.  If I played the original and a friend played the modern version, we'd have different experiences as far as combat goes, but the thing is, we could still talk about the game.  It's like if I prefer the original version of "Pretty Woman" and my friend prefers the cover by Van Halen.  We can talk about what makes each one better to us and why we prefer it.  Different experiences, sure, but at least we're able to talk about it.

Modifié par cipher86, 16 juillet 2010 - 04:26 .

[Irrbloss]

cipher86 wrote...

Here's one example that I'm sure will be immediately burnt at the stake:

Instead of having Stun, Maze, Sleep, Paralysis, Fear, etc., reduce all "character lockdown" effects to one, and call it "Stun", or perhaps "Daze".  Each effect does have its own length, and some are based on the stats of the targetted character (eg. length of Maze being based on Intelligence), but for a newcomer, it's basically a bunch of "Stun" effects.  "Confuse" should still exist as its own, as should "Charm", as should status afflictions (Disease, Poison, Petrification, etc.).  I never understood the need for so many lockdown effects, and reducing it to one, even two, is one example of how I would "dumb it down" to make it more accessible.

That can be modded. It's not particularly difficult either. I can help you get started if you want to get into it.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

cipher86, if you are really worried about a drop of difficulty coming along with BGT / Tutu, then you should just also install SCS.

And please explain to me, what exactly is BG2 for you? Is it just the story and the NPCs?



And also, what is the point of streamlining disabling spells. Already you protect yourself against them pretty much the same way, so whatever they are called does not really play a huge role. There are some that demand a different way of protecting yourself (Maze for example), but no matter how you'd change it, you'd do it wrong. Making a certain source of Daze nearly unstoppable (short of hurting the mage or being one of the select few classes that can defend themselves against it) would put newcomers off. Making Maze easily be avoided would make the spell completely useless (for level 8).



Rather than dumbing it down, you should smarten the players up. Maybe add some books about every important creature since you usually start in places with libraries. Upon reading, the advice would then be transferred to your diary.

"How to Deal With Illithids" could be one, and a player who doesn't stop to read it has only himself to blame.

Sounds like a mod to me.

[Irrbloss]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Rather than dumbing it down, you should smarten the players up. Maybe add some books about every important creature since you usually start in places with libraries. Upon reading, the advice would then be transferred to your diary.
"How to Deal With Illithids" could be one, and a player who doesn't stop to read it has only himself to blame.
Sounds like a mod to me.

Unless I misunderstood cipher his beef was that new players shouldn't need to be educated before they can enjoy the game.

[The-Scot]

Rather than dumbing it down, you should smarten the players up. Maybe add some books about every important creature since you usually start in places with libraries. Upon reading, the advice would then be transferred to your diary.
"How to Deal With Illithids" could be one, and a player who doesn't stop to read it has only himself to blame.
Sounds like a mod to me.

That wouldn't have been a half bad idea. Instead of just having lore books scattered around there could be a few that talk about the Weave or abberations (avoid 4th wall breakage) enough to drop hints for players to know a little of what to expect from mage battles or rare monster types. They sort of did this in TOTSC, so that you at least had an idea about the Death Gaze of the Nabassu.

[cipher86]

Irrbloss wrote...
Unless I misunderstood cipher his beef was that new players shouldn't need to be educated before they can enjoy the game.

This.  And I'm going to put myself out there and make a comparison:

Final Fantasy IV's North American Release was considered "Easytype", while the original Japan release is considered "Hard"

No, the "Hard" version does not have as much depth as Baldur's Gate.  Yes, it's funny that Squaresoft thought North American gamers needed to be catered to where the Japanese audience did not.  But playing Easytype and then playing Hard... it is still the same game.  Yes, the combat is different, yes the way of dealing with status effects (as an example) in "Easytype" is watered down, but it's still the same game.  I love FFIV however, and once I got enough information, I seeked out the "Hard" version so I could try a different version of the game.  I love both, but yes, the "Hard" one is more challenging.

That's what I'm talking about.  A Baldur's Gate 2 and a Baldur's Gate 2 Easytype.  I personally have a friend who wants to play Baldur's Gate, but he just does not have the time to learn the game.  An Easytype would let him play the game and have an easier time learning as he goes.  Yes, an Easytype would strip a lot of the challenge from the game, but it wouldn't have to be so drastically different from the original.  "Dumbing it down", making certain things easier to deal with, but leaving as much of the original intact as possible.  And if someone beat the "Easytype" and loved it, they might feel like doing it again but now, with the original rules fully in effect.

Does this mean they'd be unprepared for the harshness of BGII?  I don't think so.  The Easytype could be considered "Training Wheels" - yes, certain things would be missing, yes the gamer's hand would be held in certain aspects, but not so much that there would be no transferrable knowledge from the Easytype to the Original ruleset.  I know there's an "Easy" difficulty in BGII, but that goes beyond training wheels - it takes pretty much anything that player would have to learn and throws it out the window.  The combat becomes almost completely braindead - someone who plays the game on this difficulty exclusively will probably still have a very difficult time going up to Normal on a follow-up playthrough.

Someone suggested pointing me in the right direction of modding the game... I'd love that, actually.

Modifié par cipher86, 16 juillet 2010 - 02:14 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I know that you didn't want to have the players educated before the start of the game; I'm just trying to find out what exactly you want to change.

As I've tried to show before with the example of Maze, just streamlining stuff is not exactly a good thing.

So?

Turn THAC0 and saving throws upside down (so that high numbers are good numbers)?

Throw out Spell Immunity, Spell Shield etc and all but 2 debuffers?

Make mages rememorize spells every couple of minutes so that a level 1 mage is not completely helpless after his one Magic Missile?

Remove all immunities and replace them with 75% resistances?

Remove the illithid ability to devour brains?

Remove the beholder ability to automatically dispel all magic on a target (and prohibit magic from being cast)?

Remove the vampiric (or undead) ability to drain levels?

What will be left at the end (and will this not make this game completely trivial once you've learned the controls)?

[cipher86]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Turn THAC0 and saving throws upside down (so that high numbers are good numbers)?

No.  It's a bit backwards at first, but makes sense in the formula.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Throw out Spell Immunity, Spell Shield etc and all but 2 debuffers?

I'd have to take a deeper look at it, but yes, mages would be getting some changes.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Make mages rememorize spells every couple of minutes so that a level 1 mage is not completely helpless after his one Magic Missile?

Something like this.  Have spells recharge at a slow rate in battle, and at a faster rate when between battles.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Remove all immunities and replace them with 75% resistances?

Depends on the encounter.  In a lot of cases, complete immunity makes sense.  I don't want every encounter trivialized because the player can do whatever they want and still win, but the player should be able to learn things from the game as they go.  Requiring outside sources shouldn't be necessary.  Eg. Golem's immunity to everything but blunt weapons, I would find some way of explaining that to the player in-game before they encountered a Golem.  It's unfair to throw the player into an area they cannot get out of until they complete it, pit them against a creature that is immune to all but one damage type, and have them unable to deal that form of damage.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Remove the illithid ability to devour brains?

No.  This is what makes the enemy unique.  However, if a player made a character with only 3 intelligence because it seemed unnecessary at character creation, this is not good.  Maybe in such cases, the illithid will eat through Willpower before being able to devour the characters brain.  Or perhaps the overall rate of brain devouring would be lessened.  Proposed idea, nothing solid as I haven't been able to look into it more deeply - yet.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Remove the beholder ability to automatically dispel all magic on a target (and prohibit magic from being cast)?

No.  This is what makes the encounter unique.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Remove the vampiric (or undead) ability to drain levels?

No, as again, this is what makes the encounter unique.  I would place a cap on the maximum amount of levels that can be drained (based on character level), and remove the "Fatigue" effect from the Restoration spells, so they could be used in combat without hamstringing the user, and then requiring a rest/rebuff session as soon as combat ends.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
What will be left at the end (and will this not make this game completely trivial once you've learned the controls)?

Regardless of the changes made, the game difficulty would not be trivialized for a newcomer.  The idea is to create a Baldur's Gate experience that allows the player to learn as they go, so that by the time they are finished a playthrough of this "Easytype" they are better prepared to take on the Original difficulty (if they choose to).  As it is, players have to spend a good chunk of time educating themselves before they can even play the game, because they can end their character's career with a mistake in Character Creation and not find out until they are very deep in the game.  At that point, they either reroll, hack their character, or dump it to Easy and never have to learn a thing throughout the rest of the game.

Modifié par cipher86, 16 juillet 2010 - 03:26 .

[TheMufflon]

While I readily admit that basing a CRPG on a P'n'P rule-set is a stupid idea that only makes sense from a marketing perspective and that AD&D was probably the worst D&D rules to date, it's so ingrained in the gameplay of the Baldur's Gate series that efforts to replace it will most likely prove futile.



I suppose a simplified version might work, but I still don't think that would be enough to draw an all new audience to the game. Baldur's Gate's glory days has passed, we old dinosaurs are all that's left, and we kinda like the game the way it is.

[Snowbug]

cipher86 wrote...
It's insanely difficult and incredibly deep.

 

Which is one of the reasons it is the best game ever.

cipher86 wrote...
I can respect that a lot of people enjoy this, but what's so bad about creating a version that has more simplified gameplay, so it doesn't take hours and hours and hours for a newcomer to have a thorough understanding of the system?

Because takes away one of the reasons it is the best game ever.

I knew absolutely nothing about AD&D when I started to play BG, and yes, my first playthrough my character was dead every five minutes. But that was why I grew to love the game so much, because I had to use my brain to get through the tough battles, and when I finally did, there was a wonderous feeling of achievement.

There are plenty of games out there easy for new people to approach. But not every game has to be like that.

[Irrbloss]

cipher86 wrote...

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Make mages rememorize spells every couple of minutes so that a level 1 mage is not completely helpless after his one Magic Missile?

Something like this.  Have spells recharge at a slow rate in battle, and at a faster rate when between battles.

There's mod to do this out there, but for the moment I don't remember what it's called.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Remove the illithid ability to devour brains?

No.  This is what makes the enemy unique.  However, if a player made a character with only 3 intelligence because it seemed unnecessary at character creation, this is not good.  Maybe in such cases, the illithid will eat through Willpower before being able to devour the characters brain.  Or perhaps the overall rate of brain devouring would be lessened.  Proposed idea, nothing solid as I haven't been able to look into it more deeply - yet.

You could raise the ability score minimums to 8 (you character isn't handicapped, after all) and reduce the illithid brain eating to, say, 2 points.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Remove the vampiric (or undead) ability to drain levels?

No, as again, this is what makes the encounter unique.  I would place a cap on the maximum amount of levels that can be drained (based on character level)

Now, that can't be done.

Modifié par Irrbloss, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:03 .

[cipher86]

Irrbloss wrote...

cipher86 wrote...
Have spells recharge at a slow rate in battle, and at a faster rate when between battles.

There's mod to do this out there, but for the moment I don't remember what it's called.

I'm going to have to do a search now, because that'd be a damn fine mod to have, as long as it's tuned properly (ie. to my preferences  )

[Irrbloss]

cipher86 wrote...

Irrbloss wrote...

cipher86 wrote...
Have spells recharge at a slow rate in battle, and at a faster rate when between battles.

There's mod to do this out there, but for the moment I don't remember what it's called.

I'm going to have to do a search now, because that'd be a damn fine mod to have, as long as it's tuned properly (ie. to my preferences  )

Oh, it's igi's Spell System Adjustment mod, but the server it is hosted on (teambg.eu) is currently down.

[Shaerlith]

cipher86 wrote...

Irrbloss wrote...

cipher86 wrote...
Have spells recharge at a slow rate in battle, and at a faster rate when between battles.

There's mod to do this out there, but for the moment I don't remember what it's called.

I'm going to have to do a search now, because that'd be a damn fine mod to have, as long as it's tuned properly (ie. to my preferences  )

And this is one of the many reasons we dreaded changing over from our old forums to here. <_<

"To my preferences". Maybe you should consider that most of us Baldur's Gate series fans have preferences too, and we like the way it's made, and there is a reason we like the way it's made. Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal are possibly the best computer game and expansion pack ever to have been made. The reason they've stood the test of time is because they have the ability to be modded, and therefore even after we've played through at least a hundred times, you can still add variety and/or complexity to your game.



Point being, there is no reason to change the game to make it simpler and easier for the sake of "new users", mainly because Baldur's Gate IS ten years old, and the company that made this game in all it's glory no longer exists. Sure, maybe a modder could do it, but no self-respecting modder if raelly going to like your ideas any better than we do.

Modifié par Shaerlith, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:29 .

[Dante2377]

If the game isn't tough enough that on your first time through, it takes several tries each to win the "tough" (e.g. Boss) battles, what sort of a game is that? I'll answer my own question - one that won't be much fun tactically to replay.

I haven't played many other non-DnD based RPGs, but I think second edition does a better job keeping mages in check (at least until level 20s) than something like Icewind Dale 2 (modified 3rd edition). People have successfully taken a full party of 6 fighters, 6 paladins, 6 monks, etc (e.g. 6 non-arcane magic using characters) through BG1+SoA in a no-reload scenario. It would be MUCH more difficult to do in Icewind Dale 2 - beat the game with a party without a character with any sorcerer or wizard levels.

Not to sidetrack it on 4th Edition (which I've played some and found enjoyable, but different), but that really does give everyone a similar set of powers (at-wills, encounters, daily, etc) that's more equal amongst the classes, but it does remove some of the class distinction that was the essence of DnD to me. Guess that's just the grumpy old 32-year old in me.

Also remember that the 2nd edition AD&D rules was meant to be for serious gamers (it descended from war games), not the ADD (attention deficiet disorder) society that the youth has become. 

Modifié par Dante2377, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:30 .

[Shaerlith]

Also remember that the 2nd edition AD&D rules was meant to be for serious gamers (it descended from war games), not the ADD (attention deficiet disorder) society that the youth has become.


^^
This. I've been playing Baldur's Gate since I was old enough to read, and base it up against all games I play, and most things seem to pale in comparison. I don't like how companies feel like they have to make everything simple for us now, because of people that complain about having to reload once or twice. Yes, maybe Baldur's Gate makes you reload many, many, many more times in the beginning of your playing that other games, but if it was a breeze through, you wouldn't want to play it over and over again.

Modifié par Shaerlith, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:36 .

[Shaerlith]

- Oops, double post, how do we delete them on this forum?

Modifié par Shaerlith, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:36 .

[TheMufflon]

Shaerlith wrote...
And this is one of the many reasons we dreaded changing over from our old forums to here.

Yes, having to interact with people who don't conform to your opinions sure is awful.

Maybe you should take your own advice and actually considers someone else's viewpoint...

[TheMufflon]

Dante2377 wrote...

Also remember that the 2nd edition AD&D rules was meant to be for serious gamers (it descended from war games), not the ADD (attention deficiet disorder) society that the youth has become. 

It's a serious game for serious players.

[HoonDing]

TheMufflon wrote...

Yes, having to interact with people who don't conform to your opinions sure is awful.

Maybe you should take your own advice and actually considers someone else's viewpoint...

Well, what do you think happens when somebody makes a thread in the Dragon Age forum to ask for more complexity and more strategic combat?

Modifié par virumor, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:54 .

[TheMufflon]

virumor wrote...

TheMufflon wrote...

Yes, having to interact with people who don't conform to your opinions sure is awful.

Maybe you should take your own advice and actually considers someone else's viewpoint...

Well, what do you think happens when somebody makes a thread in the Dragon Age forum to ask for more complexity and more strategic combat?

Hop over there and see for yourself, it happens all the time. Mostly, though, they just devolve into people whining about how 'console kiddies' ruined the gaming industry.

[Irrbloss]

Shaerlith wrote...
Sure, maybe a modder could do it, but no self-respecting modder if raelly going to like your ideas any better than we do.

I suggest you limit yourself to merely speaking for yourself.

[cipher86]

Shaerlith wrote...
"To my preferences". Maybe you should consider that most of us Baldur's Gate series fans have preferences too, and we like the way it's made, and there is a reason we like the way it's made.

In a few of my posts, I've stated that I respect the view the Baldur's Gates fans have on the game, how they don't want there to be any drastic changes to the core gameplay because it is what created the game they have loved over the years.  Everyone has preferences - if you prefer the strict AD&D Baldur's Gate, that will always be there.  it won't suddenly become less complex because a modder created a simpler, more accesible version of the system.  If it doesn't suit your preference, you don't have to play it.

Shaerlith wrote...
Shadows of Amn and Throne of Bhaal are possibly the best computer game and expansion pack ever to have been made. The reason they've stood the test of time is because they have the ability to be modded, and therefore even after we've played through at least a hundred times, you can still add variety and/or complexity to your game.

I agree.  If you've been playing the game for years, you understand it so thoroughly that you want it to have more variety and/or complexity, but if you're brand new to the ruleset, the complexity of it and time required to learn it before being half-successful in the game may very well turn off more people than it turns on.

Shaerlith wrote...
Point being, there is no reason to change the game to make it simpler and easier for the sake of "new users",

Why should Baldur's Gate only ever be exclusive to the new users who have many hours to sink into the game before they've got a grasp on the basics?  Why does it have to be so exclusive?

Shaerlith wrote...
...mainly because Baldur's Gate IS ten years old, and the company that made this game in all it's glory no longer exists.

So what if it's 12 years old and the original devs can't do a thing with it anymore?  That doesn't mean it has to be left to the hardcores or extremely curious.  That doesn't mean that it can't be updated to meet a new audience halfway - that is, provide them with some things they want from today's games (in this case it would be a simpler combat system) in order to get them to witness a stunning game.

I've seen some talk about the game lasting because of its combat system alone, but that's cheapening the art of Baldur's Gate.  It's much more than that.  So much more than that.  If you want me to expand on that, I will, but otherwise I think a lot of people can take a few seconds to think beyond the combat system and realize that yes, there really is a lot more to the game than the combat system that keeps us coming back, 12 years later.

Shaerlith wrote...
Sure, maybe a modder could do it, but no self-respecting modder if raelly going to like your ideas any better than we do.

In other words, no modder that shares the opinion of the truly devout would ever like my ideas.

I didn't expect the hardcores to want to pick up and play a simpler version (why would they? they know the game so damn well that going easier for any reason but "research" would feel backwards), but I surely thought there would be ideas on how to make the game more accessible so that a new generation could get into the game without having to learn the insane complexity of the Baldur's Gate series.

Modifié par cipher86, 16 juillet 2010 - 08:22 .