89 réponses à ce sujet

[Irrbloss]

cipher86 wrote...

Someone suggested pointing me in the right direction of modding the game... I'd love that, actually.

I would suggest you start by composing a preliminary list of things you want to change and what they should be changed into. If you then post at G3 or SHS I'm sure someone will help you out.

[HoonDing]

I'd like to know what was so 'insanely complex' about Baldur's Gate. Of course it is not possible to rush in and just hack/cast everything to death like in DA:O, but it is not an action RPG.



IIRC it was the first D&D RPG that came out after the Goldbox series, and compared to those it's a walk in the park. Several D&D features weren't implemented anymore, i.e. Haste spell ageing a character with one year, female characters having a penalty in strength and no other stat boni, etc.

[cipher86]

Irrbloss wrote...
I would suggest you start by composing a preliminary list of things you want to change and what they should be changed into. If you then post at G3 or SHS I'm sure someone will help you out.

Thanks Irrbloss.  I'm actually going to be replaying the game and making notes as I go.  My plan is to get enough changes that make the game more accessible without completely handicapping the game, so a person could learn as they go without having to reroll once or twice and reload almost constantly on their first playthrough.  In this case, that person being my friend.

[cipher86]

virumor wrote...
I'd like to know what was so 'insanely complex' about Baldur's Gate. Of course it is not possible to rush in and just hack/cast everything to death like in DA:O, but it is not an action RPG.

It's the only game I've ever played that threw so many new terms and gameplay elements at me in the first hour that my head was spinning, and by the time I beat the game the first time I still didn't have a complete grasp on what I was doing.

I had no experience with D&D or "true" CRPGs prior to Baldur's Gate, so even though it may not implement certain things from the official ruleset (which I have no idea what they'd be unless someone told me), it still comes off as very deep and complex to someone like me.  That is, a strict video gamer - I don't do card games or tabletop games at all.  Though I do play Risk and Star Wars Monopoly with friends from time to time, but I won't claim that those have the depth of "Axis and Allies" or the "Warhammer" games (nor do I know how they have evolved over the years).

Modifié par cipher86, 16 juillet 2010 - 08:29 .

[Dante2377]

Cipher86 - there was a big project awhile back called Icewind Gate 2. That project tried to "update" BG2 to use the modified 3E engine that Icewind Dale 2 used. The problem was that there was a lot of stuff that was hard coded into BG2 and there were just WAAAY too many bugs, crashes, having to use console cheats to get past areas because of how dialogues/cutscenes/triggers were coded etc.



Once you change the rules engine, you've basically got to go and re-test and rebalance all the monsters and encounters, especially multiclass NPCs. A level 9/9 (or whatever it actually would work out in real 2E experience tableS) Fighter/Mage is vastly different form a 3E character with 9 fighter levels and 9 Wizard levels. It's such a HUGE undertaking, it's more than a Mod, even a total conversion mod.



Also at that point, it wouldn't really be BG2 anymore - it would be the story and plotlines of BG2 on another game's rules/engines. It wouldn't feel the same. That's why many people don't like 4th Ed DnD - there was a certain feel to how the game was played in 2E and there was a change in 3E, but basically very similar. 4th Ed completely blew that away and said, "ok we've nuked it from orbit and are starting over". I've played 4th Edition and it was fun. It was fun doing character development, getting new powers and items. But I wouldn't call it D&D, just some fun game that wasn't anything like the previous D&D I'd enjoyed. Doesn't mean i didn't enjoy 4th Edition, i just enjoyed it DIFFERENTLY than what I liked about previous versions and while they're both fun, i don't consider 4E to be "D&D as I know it".



Same logic applies for BG2 - once you swap out the 2nd Edition rule base for anything other than a 3E rule base, it will change how the game is played enough that most people would consider it a different game that just has the same plot.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

cipher86 wrote...
Why should Baldur's Gate only ever be exclusive to the new users who have many hours to sink into the game before they've got a grasp on the basics?  Why does it have to be so exclusive?

IMO it's just that kind of game.
In ME2 I can make a quick calculation of my DPS (depending on health/armor/shield/barrier) and that's almost all that I have to know about the game. There is nearly no "if he tries X, I will have to do Y" at all, except for the obvious "when health is low, go into cover and wait for 5 seconds".
That's fine. It's a shooter. (people who want to convince me it's an RPG should really try playing one) But BG2 is not a shooter; it's complex. It's not even just the combat. There are a great many quests that require for you to take a minute just to decide what you want to do, and if you don't take that time, then you're really robbing yourself of the actual experience.

I surely thought there would be ideas on how to make the game more accessible so that a new generation could get into the game without having to learn the insane complexity of the Baldur's Gate series.

It's not that bad, really. Sure you'll have to reload a couple of times in the beginning, but if you pay attention, you can actually learn how this game works.

cipher86 wrote...
It's the only game
I've ever played that threw so many new terms and gameplay elements at
me in the first hour that my head was spinning, and by the time I beat
the game the first time I still didn't have a complete grasp on what
I was doing.

I had no experience with D&D or "true"
CRPGs prior to Baldur's Gate

I started the same way you did, with no idea how the game worked. I still thought it was straightforward enough. BG1 taught me to be careful with low HP characters, that lightning of all kinds is bad news, that ogres can punch you dead and several other things. (I remember when Jaheira learned her first Call Lightning - that felt awesome!)
Never did I feel like I was missing out.
In BG2 I met illithids, vampires, golems and beholders.
Illithids scared me in the beginning, but since I had strong frontmen, I learned that they were no threat if you finished the battles quickly enough.
Beholders scared me for long years, and I usually killed them with cheesy tactics.
Golems took some time and health potions until I learned to bring appropiate weapons.
Vampires were only scary at the very beginning.
What I want to say is that I never felt completely out of the water. The game was difficult, but never impossible. The game was tricky - and I liked that.

[Valente11]

Although AD&D is definitely dated, I fear that any sort of update would only simplify and then ruin the beauty and complexity of BG's combat. I would hate for it to turn into a WOW style mmo combat like Dragon Age.



FYI, when I first played Baldur's Gate, I was 12 years old, I hadn't the faintest idea what Dungeon's & dragons was, and I got by just fine(with the exception of THACO, which was like quantum physics to me hehe), the game does a decent job of introducing you to the system without having to memorize the rules. Most games have a learning curve, the ones with a steeper curve, generally tend to be more worthwile.

[cipher86]

There's a lot of truth here, and if I ever get around to making some adjustments to make it more welcoming, I'll definitely have a lot of things to keep in mind.

[polytope]

As Dante2377 said, overhauling the entire spell and combat system ended up breaking the game when they tried it for IWG.



Maybe this would be relatively easy to mod though: The load screen messages which contain tips for new players... what if they actually contained useful tips (rather than telling you stuff which NPCs drill you on anyway, like trolls needing fire to be killed)?



Say, that chaotic commands protects you from being stunned. Or that spell immunity: abjuration stops enemy mages from dispelling your protections. Or that fiends and greater mummies need +3 weapons to hit. It'd make a lot less frustration for new players.

[CoM Solaufein]

For those who want to mod or see something in the game. If you want something done, do it yourself. If you have this great idea about something, that's good you better learn all you can by reading various tutorials and make it happen. Seldom will someone do it for you.



Been in the modding scene since BG was released and run the oldest IE modding community there is. .

[Gorthaur X]

cipher86 wrote...

Why should Baldur's Gate only ever be exclusive to the new users who have many hours to sink into the game before they've got a grasp on the basics?  Why does it have to be so exclusive?

I don't quite understand what your issue is, here. You make it sound like Baldur's Gate requires you to take a week off your schedule to rigorously study the manual before you can hope to defeat those first wolves on the road from Candlekeep, but that is not actually the case with the game - you learn the basics during the prologue, and the rest as you progress through the game.

You seem to feel that every moment you spend playing the game without fully understanding every aspect of its mechanics is a moment somehow wasted, even if you are moving forward in the story all the while. For many of us, that continuous learning process is a part of the game, not a separate prerequisite.

[Ryuken87]

I somewhat agree with the OP in that BG has a very steep learning curve and you are thrown in at the deep end. I don't think the answer is to change the gameplay at all, I think the gameplay is fantastically intricate and I haven't played another game that had a spell system I liked nearly as much. I think there is a fair case for in game tips, for example if you get INT drained then its hard to know what the cause of death was. I don't want to know the strengths and weaknesses of every creature in the game, as part of the fun is discovering strategies yourself.

To address some points more specifically:
I remember my first character was a fighter with poorly distributed stats. I did restart but it wasn't a big deal and I could have still gotten through the game with that character. Theres no need to restart because a mindflayer kills you in 1 hit, just a need to not put your PC at the front. The game could give you some recommendations for a good first time character.

From the manual:

“Golem” is a broad term that covers many types of magical constructs.
Most are humanoid, though they can be of inhuman size, and most
require magical means to destroy them. One of the most dangerous,
the “clay golem,” is immune to almost all types of weapons. Only
magical blunt weapons, such as hammers and maces, will damage these
constructs.

I never buffed up 100% indiscriminantly before going anywhere. I used stealth to scout from quite early on.

The pathfinding is bad, but this is a criticism of Bioware and not BG. KOTOR's was bad, ME's was bad, DA's was bad.

There are plenty of mages which aren't high level. Kalah, the ones in the Copper Coronet and Slaver Stockade, the one in the Sea's Bounty, the ones of the various mercenary groups found in the city (Temple Sewers, Den of the Seven Vales, Delosar's Inn, etc.), Mekrath, Tolgerias's apprentice, the green and black mages which curse Jaheira, Haz, Yuan-Ti mages, Xzar's apprentices, plus loads more are either low or mid level.

Regenerating spells: While I sympathise with the level 1 mage who just cast his only Magic Missile spell, the game could give a tip encouraging the use of a much better disabling spell like Sleep. I remember somebody on the old boards once making the arguement that  a mana like system is not compatible with the high level spells available in BG2. Having limited casts per day means that you can have awesomely powerful spells like Time Stop and Alacrity without unbalancing the game as much. You don't see such cool spells in other games.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Improved Alacrity doesn't unbalance the game?

There is about a 10000% power difference for my mage (Vecna and AoP) depending on whether or not this spell is running.

But apart from that I agree with you that general hints would be a very nice addition to the game for beginners ( I think I already said so myself in this thread).

[Ryuken87]

Does unbalance the game as much, as if there were a mana based system. I don't think any spell at all is particularly unbalancing for a new player anyway which is mostly what the OP is talking about.

[Sicio Starstra]

I Think that what could happen is someone just needs to Mod a different kind of Tutorial, something like a short dungeon entitled The Vampire Slayer, where there is a helpful NPC or 2 that can shove you in the right direction and give pointers. Candlekeep and Duchal Palace were great and all, but like cipher86 has been saying, you need to give someone a different taste of the game, so you can learn about how different creatures work and how to create your first character so he/she isnt one sided in the ability scores department.

Other ideas include a more detailed introduction to different kinds of spells, i know that i didnt really investigate Iron Skins the first few times around BG. This way someone can start with little bits and pieces of the game before getting involved.

[Nazo]

Baldur's Gate was already remade with a streamlined rules system. It's called Dragon Age.

Ok, snark that's probably already been done by someone out of the way, I think a lot of the game of the BG series is the ruleset and exploring it, and growing your characters with it. It is admittedly complex and sometimes a bit obtuse. But there is a fairly large group of gamers, it seems, that likes that sort of thing. And to be honest, while I love BG and the story and the characters, I think they're too shallow on their own. A mod that made the game a lot simpler would, I think, feel like playing on godmode.

(edit: PS, I loved Dragon Age. But it really is, in essence, BG based on a sane rule set)

Modifié par Nazo, 23 juillet 2010 - 05:41 .

[The Hardest Thing In The World]

Actually, I love those nasty surprises. And warrior against Mind Flayer is one of them. There are so many ways to overcome the Mind Flayers though. You compare it to DA, there's a quest in it, whereby you collect body parts in a bag and bring it to a place to revive something, that greatly resembles Kangaxx's quest, it gives me a sense of impending doom but it turns out whatever weapon or spell I'm using, I can hurt it. Same with the spirits, any weapon can hurt it. It just isn't that fun. Combat became something you dread(not because of its difficulty but because it became a chore) and not something you anticipate.



Hmm, I think I have strayed of your point about game mechanics?

[jawlz]

I wouldn't change it. Yes, AD&D/2nd edition rules are pretty arcane, but they're really not that difficult.



Also, those who make a character with 3 INT are forgetting that this is a role-playing game and not a power-leveling game; unless you're planning on role-playing a retarded character (if only BG had redone the dialogue options the way Fallout did for stupid PCs!), you shouldn't be making a character with 3 INT in the first place.



(oh, Mindflayers are tough and incredibly dangerous even if you have a respectable amount of intelligence, but that's what makes that whole section of the game so crazy/interesting, and it's things like that that keep the game from becoming too monotonous whenever combat rolls around).

[jawlz]

Oops, double post; sorry!

Modifié par jawlz, 24 juillet 2010 - 05:18 .

[KalDurenik]

For the love of great rpg's... DONT

[Lyssistr]

Not that it matters much, the game is old anyhow, but I don't think streamlining would benefit BG.

A detailed fan-made monster manual with a 1-page FAQ would be great tho, to let people jump into BG fast would fix all problems with initial stat choices, vendoring weapons you'll need etc.

Today I wouldn't buy a game like BG, lack of time to play that kind of stuff these days, wish I had as much free time as I used to. However, if I ever replayed BG/BG II it would be exactly because of the deep tactics system. Sure the first BG playthrough was a little tough (BG II not so tbh) but a short fan-made pdf that serves as a BG crash-course is all that's needed imo.

Modifié par Lyssistr, 26 juillet 2010 - 05:35 .

[Lyssistr]

btw, I've never played PnP rpgs, never read AD&D manual, just did a little trial & error when I played the series 10 yrs ago, all my friends were also playing it that way.

[Ovenall]

I'm sympathetic to the general view of the original poster.



Some of the slavish adherence to the D&D rules makes for a game that is largely about strategically saving and reloading - especially for a new player. When I go with my party through a set of doors and get wiped out by something, I reload. Next time before opening the door, I buff up, send in only those with resistances, etc. This isn't role playing, it's more like trial and error... I've learned that there's something I need to prepare for in an unrealistic, forced way.



Things like instant death spells really suck, IMO as well. An unlucky roll on a saving throw for this means a reload. How is that fun?



BG1&2 are some of the best games I've ever played, but are not without problems. Dragon Age may have streamlined some things too much, but Baldur's Gate had (has) its own set of problems. People just like looking back at it with rose-tinted glasses.

[PicklePepperPiper]

Ovenall wrote...
People just like looking back at it with rose-tinted glasses.

Or they're just looking at it with a different opinion
From what I can remember of the old Bioware forums, it seemed to be the consensus that metagaming and/or powergaming were detrimental to all our own BG experiences. I can't remember the amount of times people would talk about casting buffs IN battle, having a policy of scouting ahead with an invisible sneaker, the sort of thing that is roleplay-wise astute and still allows the player to not get their own whupped every minute.

Though I do think it's true of most BG optimists (okay, maybe I'm just speaking for myself), it's been so long since our (my) first game that we (I) really might be glossing over the nasty first-timer aspects. But once one gets to the stage of enlightenment (sounds like a cult ) then there is absolutely no merit in wallowing in how difficult the game was, or indeed still is. By all means, write a helpful manual, mod the game to be simpler, but don't ignore the fact that this game was made ten years ago for a much more open-minded gaming community, and it is going to age. And as far as I'm concerned, engineering this game to reach today's audience would massacring a beauty. Call me an miserable dinosaur but I think the true gift from Baldur's Gate should be given to those who take the time to give respect to the great game it is. If their short attention span can't handle the complexities, it's not our loss, is it?
-PPP

Modifié par PicklePepperPiper, 26 juillet 2010 - 09:40 .

[Ovenall]

And again, I'm a big fan of both BG games.



But still. Rose tinted lenses. I keep hearing complaints about "dumbed-down" dialog choices in Dragon Age and upcoming DA2. BG1 & 2 both had some pretty simplistic dialog choices. Usually it was a choice of "yes I'll help you," "yes, I'll help for a price," "I can't help you right now, maybe later" or "Get lost!!"