37 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Since I began frequenting what used to be the strategy forum here, I had taken to the idea of breaking free of my Infiltrator comfort zone and trying every class. For some reason, I thought a good start would be the Vanguard. Not only was the Vanguard's focus on CQC the exact opposite of my sniper Infiltrator, but I also decided to bump the difficulty from Veteran to Insanity. It should have been a recipe for disaster, but I discovered every reason why the Vanguard is such a loved class.

I then came across the videos in this thread that introduced me to the Engineer and the Combat Drone. Looked good. Wanted to try it. Started to, but then the Kasumi DLC came out. I brought up an old Infiltrator save to give the DLC a quick run, experienced the joy of the Widow again, then decided I wanted to replay an Infiltrator. Put the Engineer on hold.

Then I decided I wanted to see what the Adept was all about, particularly on Insanity where I was having no luck with my biotic squadmates. That was actually a lot of fun, even if I decided during the playthrough I was finally going to take every wrong decision and go through the suicide mission as ill-prepared as ever. (If anyone ever followed my science experiments for all things suicide mission, this playthrough actually became the default testing ground. This means I did the final suicide mission a hundred times as an Adept.)

Finally, I return to the Engineer. I'm a heavy power user. I had Overload, Incinerate, the Combat Drone. I even learned why Neural Shock owns. It was a good start, I was quite pleased with the results. Where did it all go wrong?

Purgatory. Perhaps I hobbled myself when I chose to bring Grunt and Mordin, though Grunt is usually a requirement for me whenever I do Purgatory because I like his reactions there so much. It's not that I kept dying so much as I found myself having to be completely defensive for my own survival. YMIR mechs, the love of my Infiltrators, became my nemesis as I sat huddled behind cover waiting for an opportunity to throw an Overload without being torn apart.

Horizon. Pain in the ass every time. The first few times I ran through this battle as an Infiltrator and then Vanguard, it was a learning experience trying to figure out how I could turn this battle in my favor. I seemed to finally figure it out by my last Infiltrator playthrough. Of course, there was nothing but good results as an Adept as the class is tailor-made for any Collector battle. But as an Engineer? I can't say I died a million times over. In fact, I think I managed to make it through that last battle on the first try where I had no right to live. Grunt and Jack did as well as I've ever had any two squadmates do during the entire mission, which was a shock. I take back any bad thing I ever said about Jack on Insanity. But like Purgatory, all I could do was be defensive, relying on stripping defenses and hoping my squadmates don't die so they can help me not die.

From that point, I think my continuing decline was my fault. Having had a good experience with Grunt and Jack on Horizon, I decided I would use them as much as possible post-Horizon. Haestrom. Illium. Not the sort of missions where your first thought is to take Grunt and Jack. Perhaps because I couldn't rely on my squadmates to strip defenses for me, I was forced to play the caster and support to my squadmates. Apparently, even though I love to use biotic/tech powers all the time, I lean on the aggressive side of playstyle which I would have never figured before trying all these different classes.

Also, if there was any playthrough where I should have concentrated on screwing up the suicide mission as soon as possible, perhaps it should have been the Engineer as that would have meant getting Legion early as well. The whole reason why I wanted to play an Engineer was the Triple Combat Drone threat of Legion, Tali, and the Engineer. Instead, while I got Tali first, I got Legion last. The Triple Combat Drone threat had to wait for the suicide mission. Finally breaking free from the Grunt and Jack squad combination, I went the entire suicide mission with Legion and Tali by my side. Should have been awesome. And it was awesome constantly throwing out drone after drone, listening to Harbinger go "Concentrate on Shep--crap, get this drone out of my face!"

Lessons learned:
1) I can't instantly love every class.
2) Playstyle is going to depend on what squadmates you bring. Had someone else been stripping shields and armor for me, would I have grumbled about staying behind cover so much?
3) Jack is a perfectly fine squadmate on Insanity so long as you will strip defenses for her.
4) Neural Shock owns.
5) Cryo Blast isn't so bad either. Slowing the enemy and watching them fall over like a statue never gets old. Keeps them out of the fight longer than Neural Shock, I think.
6) There is no number six.
7) Spamming the Combat Drone isn't guaranteed to keep me alive.
8) The Incisor Sniper Rifle is pathetic in the hands of Shepard.

Sentinel or Soldier next.

[Cra5y Pineapple]

I also went from Infiltrator to Vanguard and it went well for me. So yeah...hi-five. I would've sugested doing Soldier next though, always get the combat classes over and done with first seeing they're the simplier ones. And YMIR mechs, bring as many people with overlord as possible so you can hit the mechs with three at once. Trust me, it's pretty awsome.

[numotsbane]

ahhh, the engineer. the engineer is the only class that I've only played with once, because in my mind it's the least fun. however, i can still share my impressions and thoughts.



problems:

1) fragility. if you want to move from cover to cover, the engineer is not particularly useful. i tended to just pick a spot and hide. if something came close, I droned it. which leads me to...

2) drone. it's good. but i found myself not spamming it perhaps as much as i should have. either because I wanted to direct damage something with overload or incinerate, or because I'd actually forgotten to use it. which happenned too much. generally i used it when i had one or two enemies left, or to keep scions/ YMIRs/ harbinger occupied

3) squadmates are vital. I basically ran with jacob/miri for warpslosions and incindiary ammo, or jack/ miri later on for warp ammo. crowd control squadmates were a must, but i don't really count legion and tali's drone as crowd control. drone is a delay tactic... delaying three enemies is rarely as useful as delaying 1 enemy and killing two.



those were the things i didn't like. Also, in my mind the engineer is an infiltrator without cloak and a sniper rifle. drone doesn't define the class like other class specific powers.

that said, its not all bad.

I liked:

1) options. nothing excels at the scissors-paper-rock defense stripping quite like the engineer.

2) safety. the engineer played well rarely dies. it may not do much fast, but it sure knows how to stay safe.

[Arhka]

Incinerate actually does decently against all organic protections. Even if they have shields, I still cast Incinerate over Overload because it still breaks the shield and also CC's them if the damage bleeds through. It can even take a full barrier off a Collector Drone and 3/4 off an Assassin. Grunt can also strip barriers for you if you're having trouble with them with a maxed Concussive Shot. So does Shockwave I think still works against Barriers and Shields in a wide area.

Modifié par Arhka, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:16 .

[kaimanaMM]

My own experience with my engineer is a bit like yours Pacifien.  

I admit, after seeing Average Gatsby's Engineering the Asylum videos I quickly finished up my adept and rolled an engineer.  Purgatory was where it all started to go downhill for me.  I actually took Garrus and Miranda, the A-Team, but no matter what I did we all kept dying, over and over, I honestly think I heard Garrus mumble something about my mother and how there's no way I could have been the same Shepard that saved the Citadel.  As I huddled behind cover praying that Miranda would live through a rocket to the face this time I started wondering if I could hack it as an engineer (see what I did there?).

I kept at it, plugging away and when Horizon rolled around I grabbed Mordin and Garrus (who seemed reluctant to come along for some reason) and we hit the ground running.  We plowed through up until the final battle where it took me a few tries of figuring out a decent strategy (i.e. throwing Mordin and Garrus at Collectors and hoping they didn't come looking for the person hiding behind crate #4).  But, we eventually got through it, a little banged up, but with a few less tries than it took me as an adept.

I tried to mix it up a bit more than I usually did as a sentinel and an adept but truthfully I opted usually for Grunt / Thane in the end.  I thought, "double drone spam ftw!" with Tali, but her drone takes forever to refresh that in the end I just found myself not ever using her drone or her.  

Things I learned : 
-  I repec'd alot.  I changed up depending on the misson (putting points into AI Hacking or changing up bonus powers, I went from GSB to Flashbang Grenade and then settled on Neual Shock).
- The engineer is like the adept in a few ways but the two classes are very different playstyles and it took me a while to warm up to the way an engineer works on the battlefield.
- It was the engineer that clued me into the awesome that is anything cryo.

[JaegerBane]

The Engineer was just a bizarre experience for me. On paper, it looked good. I have a real love-hate thing with casters in this game (i.e. I have to hack them to pieces with extra guns and whatnot before I'm happy, but once done, I thoroughly enjoy it) but I remember someone saying something about how Engy's are essentially mages, with their elemental attacks, summoned minions and mind control.

It didn't play like that. Overload and Incinerate are crazy good powers and Drone ranks as one of the best powers in the game, but I found the combo of ridiculous fragility and no heavyweight crowd control powers soon started to annoy me. On levels where my Adept could simply hurl a Singularity right into a mob, sap their armour and then detonate the whole lot ot oblivion, my Engy seemed to be perpetually giving ground, spamming multicoloured splodges and only defeating anyone after he'd run about 30 metres back. It just didn't have the 'oomph' that my Adept, Vanguard and Sentinel had displayed. In situations where my Adept could smash a charging Krogan in the face with a 1200N biotic punch, my engineer kind of.... well, just flamed him then ran away and waited. Even situations where there was loads of shields... I didn't seriously feel that the Engy had that much more advantage than the Adept.

The engineer is the weirdest class in Mass Effect 2 for me, as by all rights I should love it, being a pure caster... but I don't.

[Neuzhelin]

Engineer is the ONLY class I have not considered creating. For me there is absolutely NOTHING attractive about a class with no unique ability (combat drone that your squad mates have). Nothing close to the awesomeness of vanguard's charge, damage of adrenaline rush or forgiveness of tactical cloack. Sentinel and adept seem boring too compared to ME1 but at least they have a unique ability!

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:50 .

[JaegerBane]

mashavasilec wrote...

I'd say drone IS a heavyweight crowd control. And it greatly reduces fragility. It all goes down to adapting your playstyle, for sure engineer plays very differently to adept, but they're equally effective

There were several occasions where I hit an enemy with a drone and he just seemed to either ignore it, or someone stepped up to take his place (charging krogan were really bad for this). I think it boiled down to the fact that I quite like to fight quite close up. And Adept is just as fragile, but thanks to their biotics they can simply swat away those who'd do damage, and the other classes all have their own tricks for avoiding damage too.

[Pacifien]

I'm like JaegerBane in that everything about the Engineer looked good for me on paper. I've had very good experiences with Legion's and Tali's Attack Drone in the past. I love using powers. But I just couldn't go on the offensive enough. Even on the occasions where I brought Kasumi, Miranda, or Mordin along (the three best defense strippers, in my opinion), I was stuck in defensive mode.

Perhaps being an aggressive Engineer takes a lot more balls than I can manage. I just can't figure out where it all went wrong for me, I felt like I had to have other squadmates with Overload with me when by all rights the Engineer was the one class where I shouldn't have needed that. But without others to strip down defenses for me, I was simply stuck behind the crate and forced to do the job myself.

[Arhka]

That's why I love the shotgun on the Engineer. It's a great weapon, but it forces you to get out from behind cover and charge when needed. You learn a lot of things along the way. I'll be updating my thread with advice though to go along with the videos. Still waiting on my RROD Xbox.

[kaimanaMM]

Pacifien wrote...

But I just couldn't go on the offensive enough. Even on the occasions where I brought Kasumi, Miranda, or Mordin along (the three best defense strippers, in my opinion), I was stuck in defensive mode.

This rings especially true for me.  My engineer is the only class I've played so far that I think I've memorized the letters and numbers on some of the crates at certain spots in the game.  I enjoy the tech aspect, I love the drone and the engineer is versatile in its own right, but I felt far more squishy, I felt I had less options when it came to squad mates (I  chose Grunt most times because of his ability to take and dish out abuse and Thane for warp and area throw) and I just couldn't be aggressive.

It's like Jaeger said, even though we'd plow through bad guys I ended up giving ground more often than not, either ending the fight where I started or just a little further back from where I began.  With my sentinel, adept and infiltrator I was always moving forward.

I don't dislike my engineer and I didn't spend every single fight hiding out in the back tossing Grunt at baddies, I had fun once I started warming up to the different way it plays in the game.  I'd be interested in seeing a shotgun engineer video.

Modifié par kaimanaMM, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:41 .

[Simbacca]

A lot of you folks that have had bad/boring experiences with the Engineer, it does seem like a lot of it had to do with how you played it.  It seems most think that since they have Overlord and Incinerate, the Engineer is meant to be played as the defense-stripper.  There is a reason why when playing some of the other classes, you'll tend to use squadmates for defense stripping and it's not just because you have to.  It is because the role of the lone defense-stripper is boring.  Who wants to just sit back and just strip defenses, letting inept AI allies have all the fun of getting the kills?  Don't play the Engineer that way, I don't.

Overload on synthetic, Incinerate on organic mid-range wounded enemies are finishers.  Full Cryo Blast is close to mid-range disable for a quick SMG or melee shatter.  Combat Drone followed by a Cryo Blast is great way to go from getting shot in the flank by that one straggler that managed to sneak in close to frozen enemy parts on the ground.  Neural Shock followed by a Mantis headshot is a kill.  AI Hacking is, well AI Hacking.

Respec often.  Always bring one other stripper (with AoE) of the primary defense type for the mission in one squadmate, and then the right ammo power on another squadmate.  And by right ammo power, I mean for the type of enemy faced, not type of defense faced.   So for organic enemies, that's Squad Incendiary ammo, and for synthetic enemies, that's Squad Disruptor ammo.  Do not use Squad Warp or Squad AP, max those skills as 'heavy' if you put points in them on those squaddies.  I've played collector missions with Jack's Squad Warp and I've played them with Grunt's/Jacob's Squad Incendiary.  The added control of Incendiary was far more helpful.

Pacifien, Purgatory would have been much better with Garrus instead of Mordin.  You are the Engineer, you are the Mordin.  Burning, freezing, elbowing, and sniping fleshes is more fun than shocking shields.

Jaeger, don't use Incinerate or Drone on a charging Krogan, use Cryo Blast. 

When a fight starts, cast Drone, then cast the appropriate AoE defense stripping power of both Shepard and the defense-stripping squadmate.  Now at least a few mooks should be defenseless or near defenseless.  From this point on, so other than the first casting after the appearance of a new enemy wave, Shepard should no longer defense-strip.  Keep using the d-s squadmate's power whenever it comes up to deal with the defenses, cause Engineer Shepard should be using some of his many finisher options listed in the second paragraph of this post. 

And I don't know what it is on PC, but use the ^ key on the d-pad often (the onethat causes both squadmates to focus their fire on one enemy).  They can finish many unprotected enemies quickly in an instant, especially if they have the appropriate squad ammo or you just Cryo Blasted the target, allowing you to focus on another foe.

With all that being said, I'd never say the Engineer was the most fun class.  Vanguard will always be thee most fun class for me, and the bits I've played with Infiltrator, Sentinel, and Soldier seem to more fun as well.  Those four classes unique powers alter Shepard's combat ability enough to feel fresh and distinct.  Combat Drone, though awesome, doesn't.  However, the gap in the amount of fun between playing the Engineer and these other classes is far smaller than most here seem to believe, in my experience.

Ever since ME2 came out I've wished recording 360 gameplay footage was as easy as it is on PC.  That wish has never been so strong as when I'm playing my Engineer.  I wish I could show you instead of trying to explain.

Modifié par Simbacca, 15 juillet 2010 - 07:59 .

[JaegerBane]

Simbacca wrote...
Jaeger, don't use Incinerate or Drone on a charging Krogan, use Cryo Blast. 

I'd love to, but he had a pesky armour bar in the way

I'm nearing the end of my ME1 run. What a cracking game. The time is fast approaching where I have to decide what class to play. I'm probably not going to do ME2's Vanguard... Engineer is one of the possibles.

Realistically it'll either be a Sentinel or an Adept, but I'm thinking about it.

[SteelerWayne]

Arhka wrote...

Incinerate actually does decently against all organic protections. Even if they have shields, I still cast Incinerate over Overload because it still breaks the shield and also CC's them if the damage bleeds through. It can even take a full barrier off a Collector Drone and 3/4 off an Assassin. Grunt can also strip barriers for you if you're having trouble with them with a maxed Concussive Shot. So does Shockwave I think still works against Barriers and Shields in a wide area.

Agreed.  Incinerate is one of the first things I upgrade on Mordin. 

[Simbacca]

JaegerBane wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

Jaeger, don't use Incinerate or Drone on a charging Krogan, use Cryo Blast. 

I'd love to, but he had a pesky armour bar in the way

Figured, but enemies shouldn't still have defenses by the time they get near you (or just a little bit that can be blasted off with a quick SMG burst).  Engineers are squishy so Krogan defenses have to be dealt with quick before they get close, especially since they can ignore the Drone.  If surprise flanked, use Medi-gel and regroup.

[JaegerBane]

Simbacca wrote...
Figured, but enemies shouldn't still have defenses by the time they get near you (or just a little bit that can be blasted off with a quick SMG burst).  Engineers are squishy so Krogan defenses have to be dealt with quick before they get close, especially since they can ignore the Drone.  If surprise flanked, use Medi-gel and regroup.

I think that's the problem I have with the Engy - with an Adept I can afford to be a lot more risky and simply don't have to worry too much about flanking, as anyone who poses a threat I can simply stick in place or keep them off their feet.

I don't particularly like having to frantically keep everything at long range. It makes the game a bit boring.

[kaimanaMM]

Simbacca wrote...

 If surprise flanked, use Medi-gel and regroup.

This is another thing I learned as an engineer.  A lot of people don't know that you can use medi-gel to heal, it's not just to revive dead squadmates.  I used it - often.  

[NICKjnp]

I started the sentinel up... and found myself playing it like I played the adept.

[Simbacca]

JaegerBane wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

Figured, but enemies shouldn't still have defenses by the time they get near you (or just a little bit that can be blasted off with a quick SMG burst).  Engineers are squishy so Krogan defenses have to be dealt with quick before they get close, especially since they can ignore the Drone.  If surprise flanked, use Medi-gel and regroup.

I think that's the problem I have with the Engy - with an Adept I can afford to be a lot more risky and simply don't have to worry too much about flanking, as anyone who poses a threat I can simply stick in place or keep them off their feet.

I don't particularly like having to frantically keep everything at long range. It makes the game a bit boring.

I'm not saying that at all.  I would find keeping enemies at long range boring too.  By surprised flanked, I meant by an enemy that somehow still has full protection up (and even if they do, I have used combat drone to fully distract most enemies, though granted it works on just a few less enemy types than singularity).  With the playstyle I was describing earlier, you strip most of the enemy's defenses right away as each wave appears.  Once that happens, you just focus on executing the vulnerable.  It doesn't matter if any of them get up close at this point, because you have Cryo Blast and it's quick cooldown.  In fact, getting close even works to your advantage now all your AoE powers cc (area overlord, incineration blast, full cryo blast).  

Yes you still have to keep enemies at mid-range a little longer than some other classes, closing in only for smart kills, but you certainly don't have to hide in the back if you don't want to.

Modifié par Simbacca, 16 juillet 2010 - 12:39 .

[Simbacca]

kaimanaMM wrote...

Simbacca wrote...

 If surprise flanked, use Medi-gel and regroup.

This is another thing I learned as an engineer.  A lot of people don't know that you can use medi-gel to heal, it's not just to revive dead squadmates.  I used it - often.  

It's true.  I use medi-gel way more as an Engineer than I normally do while playing other classes, but I like playing the Engineer as aggressively as it can.  Without a shield-regeneration charge, a time-slowing rush, an exploding tech armor,  or the one ring of mordor, you sometimes need to use medi-gels to do so.  Even so, I still received +100 credits for well over 1/2 the game's medi-gel pickups.

Modifié par Simbacca, 16 juillet 2010 - 12:46 .

[Pacifien]

I do freely admit I did nothing to help my Engineer run by picking squadmates I knew were not optimum for the mission. At this point, with as many playthroughs as I've done, I look for those ways that try to challenge me. On the plus side, I learned how to use my shotgun squadmates (particularly Jack) to much better effect on Insanity. However, that probably came at the cost of finding the Engineer class a bit more enjoyable.

Respec is a gameplay element I find easy to forget. I never had the need for it on the other classes, though I can see how that would change with the Engineer. The only time I bothered was to go from Neural Shockwave to Full Cryo Blast. I relied on Grunt for Incendiary and never thought twice about other ammo types.

The medikits have been my friend for a long time, but I can go through periods of fanatic hording of them for fear of not having them on the missions where I know I'm going to get hurt bad such as Horizon or the Collector ship. Why, oh, why didn't the developers think to provide a medikit dispenser in the medbay? Seriously.

[numotsbane]

I have the feeling that an engineer would go from one of the least useful to one of the most useful classes if you had human squadmates (ie multiplayer) rather than AI squadmates. the engineer strikes me as a helper class, not a class that gets the bulk of the mission done by itself - and seeing as squadmates are pretty useless, thats what an ME2 engineer is forcd to do.