55 réponses à ce sujet

[odiedragon]

Dammit.  Even though I'm an elitist who's opinions don't matter, I can't get this out of my head and move on.  It's okay if you think my opinion is bunk though. 

I've done some heated lambasting of the changes from Silent Player-Created PC to Bioware-Created Hawke in the past week or so.  I've been irrationally angry about the changes that have been made for DA2.  I still believe that the game will be The Cinematic Adventures of Sword!Shep rather than a true RPG.

But you know what?

I realized last night that's not what I'm so mind-numbingly angry about.

I'm angry because Origins was set up as the beginning of a greater story.  Sure, it was epic in its own right.  But we need look no further than the title of the game for confirmation of this.

The game was called Dragon Age: Origins.  Not Dragon Age: The Fifth Blight or Dragon Age: Ferelden.

It was supposed to be the first chapter.  The beginning of something greater.  A game in which our choices would have long-reaching consequences.  A story with it's own arc and resolution, but with a lot of loose ends and plot points that are begging to be followed up on.

And now, instead of that, we're getting a wholly new story with a new non-unique PC.

This sets Hawke up to be the obvious scapegoat.  The whipping boy for our deeper concerns and disappointments.  And it makes people who are not happy with the new direction look like a bunch of complainers who will never be happy.

It's not Hawke that's upsetting most people, I think.  It's the fact story that was clearly set up to be continued is no longer going to be told.

I mean, look at all that was put into motion and will now never be resolved.

• God-baby (or not)
• Finding Morrigan. 
• The fact that no matter WHO you put on the throne, Ferelden is poised for another civil war because there will most likely not be an heir.  Except maybe god-baby.
• Your decisions in Orzammar, and how that affects the dwarves going forward. 
• Relations with the elves, depending on whether or not you killed Zathrian. 
• What will happen with the Circle of Magi, depending on whether or not you saved or killed the mages, and especially if the Circle gets its freedom in the end.
• Empress Celine being spurned for her proposal of a "permanent alliance" with Ferelden.  Even if events lead to her offer no longer being applicable (such as putting Anora on the throne) she still would be miffed about it.  Even more so in the cases of Alistair/Anora, Alistair/Warden, or Anora/Warden.
• The Architect and the effects of letting him live or killing him
• The Warden's disappearance several years after the end of Awakening (and Alistair's too, in some cases... I for one still really want to know why King Alistair would be willing to run off with his Warden mistress but not his Warden queen, but that's just me)

The most galling however?  The fact that both the Origins and Awakening epilogues imply that our Warden's story is not finished.  Sure, you could say that Awakening is the futher story of our Warden.  But all Awakening does is bring up MORE plot-points.  There is no resolution of the outstanding ones.  It's a side story that takes place after the Blight which only brings up more questions.

THAT'S why people are railing against the changes.  Hawke is the embodiment of all these issues, so he gets lambasted and scorned.  But his existence, his VO, the dialog wheel... these are all extraneous to the true underlying problem.

New stories are fine.  Great, in fact.  But I know I was hoping for some resolution/continuation of that which was set up to be continued.  Not getting that continuation feels like betrayal, irrational as that may be.  It also makes me not even want to play DA:O again, for all that I enjoy it.  Where before it felt like we were being set up for something even bigger and more epic, now all I can think is "What's the point?"  Aside from killing the Archdemon, the story is incomplete.  And now that we know the story will not be continued... Maybe someone else can get past that.  I can't.

That's where, I believe anyway, the true source of the rage lies.  Not in Hawke.  Not in whatever cosmetic changes Bioware makes.  It's the fact that we're left hanging, with no hope of resolution left.

When I read the line in my sig below, I had one of those epiphany-like moments.  I literally stopped reading and stared at it for several moments.  This, I thought, THIS is the theme of the entire series.  Dealing with difficult matters, and how our choices therein affect our outcomes.  Now... now it all feels meaningless.

And none of that is Hawke's fault.

Modifié par odiedragon, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:24 .

[uzivatel]

http://social.biowar...34&lf=8#3054616

- happy?

Modifié par uzivatel, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:23 .

[Greenface21]

Geez you should put Spoiler Alert for DA2 in your title as well. Apparently you've played it already to know what plot points it hasn't handled.

[odiedragon]

Um, no? Because nothing save that one comment has said anything to that effect?



Remember these are the same people who said our choices would affect Awakening. While true in the letter of the law, it sure wasn't true in spirit. Yeah, it changed who showed up, Alistair or Anora. Yeah, it changed which dwarven king gets a mention. But that's about it.



Nothing was resolved. Nothing truly affected the game in a significant way.

[odiedragon]

Greenface21 wrote...

Geez you should put Spoiler Alert for DA2 in your title as well. Apparently you've played it already to know what plot points it hasn't handled.

Why change to a new story unless to leave the old one behind?  If they wanted to continue the old story, they would be doing so.  Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[Ulicus]

odiedragon wrote...

[*]The Warden's disappearance several years after the end of Awakening (and Alistair's too, in some cases... I for one still really want to know why King Alistair would be willing to run off with his Warden mistress but not his Warden queen, but that's just me)

My guess is because, with a Warden mistress, Alistair may have produced an heir with his non-Warden queen (though this is not mentioned) whereas, with his Warden-Queen, there's no heir. Running off either way is irresponsible, of course, but Maric did the exact same thing in The Calling and Alistair is his father's son.

Modifié par Ulicus, 15 juillet 2010 - 03:31 .

[StreetlightEagle]

I hate the fact that so many people are whining about the plot of DA2 when they know basically nothing about it and so few people whined about ME2 which had the most awful, nearly non-existent, plot in any Bioware game. It makes no sense to me.

[In Exile]

odiedragon wrote...

The game was called Dragon Age: Origins.  Not Dragon Age: The Fifth Blight or Dragon Age: Ferelden.

The game was called Dragon Age. That was the title it was designed under. That was the title it was announced under. That was the title that we who followed the game for four years.

It was changed to Dragon Age: Origins. Bioware never explicitly said why. We debated whether it was because it was the start of the Dragon Age story, an emphasis on the gameplay feature, etc.

But at no point was the game designed under the auspices of "Origin" as an origin story for the Warden.

It was supposed to be the first chapter.  The beginning of something greater.  A game in which our choices would have long-reaching consequences.  A story with it's own arc and resolution, but with a lot of loose ends and plot points that are begging to be followed up on.

No; it was supposed to be the spiritual successor to BG2. In some ways it was. In other ways, there were fights. 2D portraits - that was a battle. We had endless debates over this. The Origin stories constraining roleplay. Oh, you think they're awesome and lovely now? Huge debates. How dare they not allow my human warrior to be anything other than a noble? My character concept will not work!

Dragon Age never promised to be a multiple title story. It never promised to be the "beginning of something greater." It promised a return to BG2. Large number of sidequests. VO-free RP. Well-developed party. Isometric tactical gameplay. This is what Dragon Age promised. This is why we followed the game for five years.

None of it was the fact that it would have sequels. All of us were worried there might never be an isometric tactical RPG again if Dragon Age was not commercially succesful. We didn't speak about sequels - we spoke about how we hoped it would sell so we would have more games that have the features we loved.

None of what you're saying was ever promised. And if you are adamant it was, I'd like quotes from the developers to back it up. Because what you're describing is completely at odds with what it was like to follow this game for years.

And now, instead of that, we're getting a wholly new story with a new non-unique PC.

This sets Hawke up to be the obvious scapegoat.  The whipping boy for our deeper concerns and disappointments.  And it makes people who are not happy with the new direction look like a bunch of complainers who will never be happy.

That's fair - since we're getting a voiced PC. And that should be a source of conflict. Some people, like myself, think VO improves role-playing. *Shock! * *Gasp!* This is a position some people hold. We get brow-beat all the time for not getting role-playing.

I appreciate that this change in direction for Dragon Age 2 is something dramatic for a lot of people, and maybe changes the game away from a game they'd like to play.

...But that doesn't justify being entitled over a game that never existed, and a series direction that never was. Dragon Age wasn't Dragon Age:Origins, start to a multiple title story about some Ferelden Grey Warden. It was Dragon Age, spiritual successor to BG2, a return to deep-quests and isometric tactical gameplay, and it delivered.

[*]

The most galling however?  The fact that both the Origins and Awakening epilogues imply that our Warden's story is not finished.  Sure, you could say that Awakening is the futher story of our Warden.  But all Awakening does is bring up MORE plot-points.  There is no resolution of the outstanding ones.  It's a side story that takes place after the Blight which only brings up more questions.

Have you never played a cRPG before? They didn't leave the ending open so that they could follow up on it - it's so that they try to avoid rail-roading your character by making decisions for your character, and so they try to leave it open ended. To me, that caused WTF moments of epic proportions. Why does my human noble, who wanted to be the shadow behind the throne with moron-King Alistair run off to fool around with Leliana?

Great, in fact.  But I know I was hoping for some resolution/continuation of that which was set up to be continued.  Not getting that continuation feels like betrayal, irrational as that may be.  It also makes me not even want to play DA:O again, for all that I enjoy it.  Where before it felt like we were being set up for something even bigger and more epic, now all I can think is "What's the point?"  Aside from killing the Archdemon, the story is incomplete.  And now that we know the story will not be continued... Maybe someone else can get past that.  I can't.

Feel betrayed as you like. You're only feeling betrayed because you felt entitled to something that you never where in the first place. That was never something that Dragon Age was about. It was always about ending the blight. It was ostensibly about becoming Hero, Martyr or Tyrant, but apparently Tyrant was phased out in post-production. That's it. There's nothing wrong with having a deep experience with a game - but the game was just never about any of these things; they're all side plots to enrich it. Sorry.

[Narreneth]

It's called Dragon Age: Origins because of the mechanic of picking the origin story of your character, not because it was the "origin" of a longer story focused around whatever character you made.

[Addai]

I would like to see an official confirmation that there is no more content forthcoming, including DLC, where we will play our warden PCs. You do get that feeling from the announcements, but it would be nice to see it in stone that Awakening was the last we will see of the Warden.

[Lord_Saulot]

Addai67 wrote...

I would like to see an official confirmation that there is no more content forthcoming, including DLC, where we will play our warden PCs. You do get that feeling from the announcements, but it would be nice to see it in stone that Awakening was the last we will see of the Warden.

I assumed that some of the future DAO DLC would be for the Warden.  Is that wrong?

[Lord Issa]

I really like what I've heard of DA2, so I don't agree. That said, I would be quite upset if our Warden doesn't return in DA3.

[Narreneth]

Addai67 wrote...

I would like to see an official confirmation that there is no more content forthcoming, including DLC, where we will play our warden PCs. You do get that feeling from the announcements, but it would be nice to see it in stone that Awakening was the last we will see of the Warden.

They've already confirmed there will be more DA:O DLC's.  So there's still a chance you'll get to play your precious Warden again.

[DanteCousland]

Davids comment got deleted....

[Brockololly]

DanteCousland wrote...

Davids comment got deleted....

Conspiracy! Conspiracy!

And I was just about to quote it and respond to...

As for the OP, I'd more or less agree. Especially with the possibility of the OGB and Morrigan if you did the DR, thats the one thing that the Warden should have to deal with in the future and not some other hero. The Warden started that mess, if anything goes wrong, they should have to to deal with it seeing as the other half of the DR is that not only do you create and OGB but the Warden lives when they would have normally died.

To be fair, there might be more DLC or an expack that can tie up loose ends for the Warden. And I think if we knew one way or the other what their plans were for the Warden, it wouldn't feel like they're just kicking him/her to the curb in favor of the newer, shinier hero Hawke.

Modifié par Brockololly, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:04 .

[Loc'n'lol]

DanteCousland wrote...

Davids comment got deleted....

Yyyup. What was there, I wonder ?

[David Gaider]

DanteCousland wrote...

Davids comment got deleted....

I deleted them. I've addressed this too many times already, and In Exile did a much better job of it.

[Kohaku]

_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

Davids comment got deleted....

Yyyup. What was there, I wonder ?

It was a great post. I wanted to link it to a friend. Ding dong. Post is gone.

[DanteCousland]

David Gaider wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

Davids comment got deleted....

I deleted them. I've addressed this too many times already, and In Exile did a much better job of it.

Are you being sarcastic about the whole "doing it better in exile"?.

[AntiChri5]

I read Davids comment.



It was the usual appeal to reason while thanking them for commitment to the game and pointing out a few things.



Nothing he hasnt said before.



SO. MANY. TIMES.

[Herr Uhl]

DanteCousland wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

Davids comment got deleted....

I deleted them. I've addressed this too many times already, and In Exile did a much better job of it.

Are you being sarcastic about the whole "doing it better in exile"?.

The user has the nick that reads as follows: In Exile.

[In Exile]

Brockololly wrote..

As for the OP, I'd more or less agree. Especially with the possibility of the OGB and Morrigan if you did the DR, thats the one thing that the Warden should have to deal with in the future and not some other hero. The Warden started that mess, if anything goes wrong, they should have to to deal with it seeing as the other half of the DR is that not only do you create and OGB but the Warden lives when they would have normally died.

Why? To begin with - whether or not the child grows up to be anything other than human is up-in-the-air, and there needs to be at least a good 20 year span to actually have an adult to do anything about. Beyond that, it isn't entirely clear that the child is an abomination. If you buy what Morrigan is saying, they're trying to preserve an old god because there is something special about being an old god - but depending on your story choices that never happens.

So now you're saying DA3 should tell everyone: if you were a Male Warden you slept with Morrigan. No choice about it. If this wasn't your playthrough ever, we've re-written your choice. If you were a female Warden you convinced Alistair to do it (maybe you watched - kinky...).

Also - why should the Warden have normally died? Certainly the taint could have killed him good, but plausibly Alistair or [Secret Character] could have taken the final blow instead. Which just means that in 20 years time you go insane from the taint.

I just never got attached to the Warden, I guess, because I could never get attached to the Grey Wardens.

[odiedragon]

In Exile wrote...

The game was called Dragon Age. That was the title it was designed under. That was the title it was announced under. That was the title that we who followed the game for four years.

It was changed to Dragon Age: Origins. Bioware never explicitly said why. We debated whether it was because it was the start of the Dragon Age story, an emphasis on the gameplay feature, etc.

But at no point was the game designed under the auspices of "Origin" as an origin story for the Warden.

If they never explictly said why, why is your version correct then? 

How does that make the game not the origin of the story?  It has been started, but now appears not to be headed to completion.

Dragon Age never promised to be a multiple title story. It never promised to be the "beginning of something greater." It promised a return to BG2. Large number of sidequests. VO-free RP. Well-developed party. Isometric tactical gameplay. This is what Dragon Age promised. This is why we followed the game for five years.

None of it was the fact that it would have sequels. All of us were worried there might never be an isometric tactical RPG again if Dragon Age was not commercially succesful. We didn't speak about sequels - we spoke about how we hoped it would sell so we would have more games that have the features we loved.

None of what you're saying was ever promised. And if you are adamant it was, I'd like quotes from the developers to back it up. Because what you're describing is completely at odds with what it was like to follow this game for years.

It would have been premature at that point to presume sequels.  But the game now exists.  The plot points I specify exist.  And they are not being addressed or resolved, now that the game has shown to be a commercial succeess and a sequel would be possible.

And now, instead of that, we're getting a wholly new story with a new non-unique PC.

This sets Hawke up to be the obvious scapegoat.  The whipping boy for our deeper concerns and disappointments.  And it makes people who are not happy with the new direction look like a bunch of complainers who will never be happy.

That's fair - since we're getting a voiced PC. And that should be a source of conflict. Some people, like myself, think VO improves role-playing. *Shock! * *Gasp!* This is a position some people hold. We get brow-beat all the time for not getting role-playing.

I appreciate that this change in direction for Dragon Age 2 is something dramatic for a lot of people, and maybe changes the game away from a game they'd like to play.

...But that doesn't justify being entitled over a game that never existed, and a series direction that never was. Dragon Age wasn't Dragon Age:Origins, start to a multiple title story about some Ferelden Grey Warden. It was Dragon Age, spiritual successor to BG2, a return to deep-quests and isometric tactical gameplay, and it delivered.

It may not have started that way.  But given the game that was delivered, it appears to have grown into that.  And now that's gone.

The most galling however?  The fact that both the Origins and Awakening epilogues imply that our Warden's story is not finished.  Sure, you could say that Awakening is the futher story of our Warden.  But all Awakening does is bring up MORE plot-points.  There is no resolution of the outstanding ones.  It's a side story that takes place after the Blight which only brings up more questions.

Have you never played a cRPG before? They didn't leave the ending open so that they could follow up on it - it's so that they try to avoid rail-roading your character by making decisions for your character, and so they try to leave it open ended. To me, that caused WTF moments of epic proportions. Why does my human noble, who wanted to be the shadow behind the throne with moron-King Alistair run off to fool around with Leliana?

Um, yes I have?  I'm not quite following you here.  First you say it's to avoid railroading, and then it causes WTF moments.

Great, in fact.  But I know I was hoping for some resolution/continuation of that which was set up to be continued.  Not getting that continuation feels like betrayal, irrational as that may be.  It also makes me not even want to play DA:O again, for all that I enjoy it.  Where before it felt like we were being set up for something even bigger and more epic, now all I can think is "What's the point?"  Aside from killing the Archdemon, the story is incomplete.  And now that we know the story will not be continued... Maybe someone else can get past that.  I can't.

Feel betrayed as you like. You're only feeling betrayed because you felt entitled to something that you never where in the first place. That was never something that Dragon Age was about. It was always about ending the blight. It was ostensibly about becoming Hero, Martyr or Tyrant, but apparently Tyrant was phased out in post-production. That's it. There's nothing wrong with having a deep experience with a game - but the game was just never about any of these things; they're all side plots to enrich it. Sorry.

It's not a matter of "like", but it's how I feel, like it or not.

And again, that's your interpretation of events.  The game I played was clearly being set up to be Chapter 1 of a much larger story.  Or at least the events that were not resolved were being set up to be what affected the next installment.  If it hadn't been a success, I could undertand not continuing on.  But it was, very clearly it was, succeesful.

I suppose time will tell how much DA:O affects DA2.  But given what I've read, I'm not holding out a lot of hope.

[Hulk Hsieh]

The moment I saw the dialog that Wardens will eventually go to the deep road, I knew the story of the Warden would end in one game. And the fact that the Warden can die in the end of Origins confirmed it further. I was actually surprised that we can play as the Warden in Awakening. But form the quality of how importing was done, it is quite clear that Awakening is an afterthought.

I knew it from the beginning, so it doesn't surprise me a bit.

Modifié par Hulk Hsieh, 15 juillet 2010 - 04:22 .

[Sleepicub09]

David Gaider wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

Davids comment got deleted....

I deleted them. I've addressed this too many times already, and In Exile did a much better job of it.

ok but what you said before  made it sound like we will be importing our decisions into DA2. Tis is true.Yes?