59 réponses à ce sujet

[1varangian]

1) Inconsequential, simple minded combat

Health, mana and stamina regenerate almost instantly after every encounter. This promotes a very carefree playstyle where getting hurt doesn't really matter, as long as one party member survives. Triggering a trap that almost incinerates the entire party is completely meaningless when you recover from it in a matter of seconds, and you even end up triggering them on purpose because it's faster than disarming. The persistent injuries fail at fixing this, as they too are nothing more than a minor inconvenience. The minimal penalties for a "cracked skull" are not even believable and the injuries are effortless to remove. For fighting to be exciting you should be forced to avoid damage at all cost, but in DA you don't really care. This really undermines the overall immersion of the game.

The same carefree approach applies to magic. You can mindlessly blast away with your most powerful spells at the weakest enemies. Sadly, your most powerful spells become less special and more mundane with each casting. The need for resource management is missing completely. Forcing the player to think how and when to use their mana would also be very rewarding when done successfully. I'm not a fan of the mage staff and the unlimited magic attacks either that effectively make them mage+archer. Archers should be important as well, and not because they have some uber arrow with aoe paralyze that makes no sense at all.

The abundant potions also contribute to the problem. If any given battle is too hard, you can simply overcome it by drinking enough potions which in turn destroys all feeling of achievement. Knowing it was the potions that won that epic 1v1 instead of the skill of your PC or Alistair.

I realize the devs want the wheels to keep moving, but unfortunately this reduces the game to a "fun romp" with a lot of button mashing that does not reward a smart player for good resource management or tactics. In DA:O, the story and the otherwise solid gameplay carry the repetitive combat. My biggest wish is that the combat of DA2 would be more engaging, meaningful and consequential. To the point where you have to load an old save or restart the game if you played poorly. I would also rather be forced to reload a battle when a plot companion dies than watch them get killed only to stand up and auto-heal in a few seconds.  Perhaps these things could be addressed with a "hardcore" difficulty setting?

2) Level scaling enemies

Fighting the same Darkspawn at all levels really removes any feeling of advancement. And a 15th level party getting eaten by a pack of "high level wolves" utterly destroys it. I hope the engine and the improved hardware of 2011 can handle increasing enemy numbers rather than their levels for DA2. There are also better ways to keep battles challenging at higher levels - smarter enemies who go for soft targets, ambushes, less but bigger and longer battles, splitting up the party etc..

3) Clothing and hair

Too much recycling of the same outfits on NPCs to the point where it's noticeable. Mages are especially bad to look at. After hearing DA2 visuals will get technical improvements and look super hot I'm eagerly awaiting clothing and hair physics.

[Narreneth]

I agree with your points on the combat, though I know a lot of people don't. There is a very nasty myth floating around the boards that the combat in DA:O was "tactical, strategic, and challenging." I enjoyed the combat for the pretty finishing moves and big explosions from spells such as fireball, but ultimately I felt it was too easy and as such was not rewarding. I'd like the tactics system to be upgraded so you can really get down to programming your party members and have the combat be much more... I dunno... not difficult so much as requiring more thought. Anyone who's played 3 minutes of an MMO can set up a party in DA:O like a party in an MMO and bash through Nightmare without a second thought.

[Narreneth]

Accidentally submitted that first one. I especially agree with you on the clothing and hair point. The level scaling enemies I'm indifferent on. If they changed it, I'd be fine with it. If they leave it the same, I'll be fine with it.

[1varangian]

...and I'm tempted to add the lack of multiplayer and DM client on top.

Being able to mod DA for a PW with custom rules would make all SP campaign criticism completely irrelevant.

But I can support making multiplayer a game or expansion of its own so those who play the game only for SP won't have to pay for it in overall quality or $$$.

Modifié par 1varangian, 15 juillet 2010 - 09:26 .

[Narreneth]

I don't think DA should be multiplayer anymore than ME should be. I am content with it being just single player.

[Khayness]

Narreneth wrote...

I don't think DA should be multiplayer anymore than ME should be. I am content with it being just single player

There is a difference between possible co-op or killstreaks 1337kids pissing contest competetive multiplayer and NWN esque PWs.

[Biserthebomb]

signed

[Sylvius the Mad]

1varangian wrote...

Health, mana and stamina regenerate almost instantly after every encounter. This promotes a very carefree playstyle where getting hurt doesn't really matter, as long as one party member survives.

This was intended by the developers, and they told us about it before DAO was released.

DAO's design favours tactical planning over strategic planning in every possible circumstance.  I'm not thrilled about that design choice, but it was an explicit choice the DAO team made.  The game is designed such that your party will be at or near full strength to start every single combat encounter in the game.  There is no need for long-term strategic planning.

The need for resource management is missing completely.

Yes.  They did that on purpose.  I think resource management is fun, but apparently BioWare disagrees.

2) Level scaling enemies

This is also something I really dislike.  I don't see why any game needs scaled enemies.  Yes, some games designs make some content scaling necessary, but those designs aren't mandatory.

I would suggest that creating a coherent ruleset and setting be the first step in game design, and then building fun gameplay within those constraints.  Coherence only adds to fun, and a lack of coherence takes fun away.

Fighting the same Darkspawn at all levels really removes any feeling of advancement.

In fact, if your character doesn't learn any useful combat skills from one level to the next, he might find that the Genlocks he could defeat easily yesterday and now suddenly more powerful than he is.

This is even more noticeable with magic.  If I don't happen to increase my magic statistic from one level to the next, then the damage I do with a particular spell will remain the same.  But the darkspawn will now have more HP or greater resistance to damage, so monsters I could one-shot the day before now consistently survive my spell.  From the character's point of view, this can't help but look like his spell got weaker overnight.  But that doesn't make any sense.

[SirOccam]

It's not so much a big flaw, in fact they did a great job on it overall, but I hope companion interaction gets improved.

When my City Elf who was romancing Morrigan went to the Alienage and turned down the Tevinter dude's offer to sacrifice the elven slaves for a minor constitution bump...Morrigan disapproves? I mean come ON. Even Morrigan can not honestly expect me to sacrifice my own FATHER.

[Azint]

I disliked how you could bribe your way to your party member's adoration. The gift system should be much more conservative.

[1varangian]

Azint wrote...

I disliked how you could bribe your way to your party member's adoration. The gift system should be much more conservative.

That's a good point. They're all a bunch of materialists who will sell their ideals for a cheap trinket.

[Grommash94]

I agree about the combat. Should be more challenging and strategic. Problem with that is that the consoles would be excluded, as we don't have the advantage of isometric view, and thus placement, and even choosing what to attack, is more difficult than it should be. But, since there will be a different combat system on the consoles ANYWAY, suppose that isn't a problem. Not so sure about the level scaling; some creatures felt easier as you progressed imo, so it wasn't entirely noticeable to me. Agree with the third point.

[Lord Gremlin]

NO NO and NO. I disagree with point 1. I've already suggested - please, don't make Dragon Age 2 Demon's Souls's style difficult, it distracts from the story. If you fail to Loghain 10 times in a row it means he won. And if you won on 11th try it never happened. Don't break immersion, don't ruin the story.

In Demon's Souls it was ok, it's a part of the story there - you die and rot hundreds of times. In Dragon Age when you die "your journey is over". So I strongly disagree. I know there are sick people who like being screwed halfway through the game and being forced to replay 60 hours. I don't! In Demon's Souls if you caught plague and a crowd of swamp giants is onto you you could die and then come back for revenge, nothing lost except for current souls and dignity (and all demon's will be resurrected, but screw them). But what would you do in Dragon Age when you're stuck in a battle you can't win and can't resupply/heal injuries?

[Altima Darkspells]

They could implement a lyrium addiction system to keep people from simply chugging potion after potion to fuel their magicks. I think the original system was that potions would greatly improve the health or mana regeneration, not instantly replenish x amount of health or mana.



But yes, I agree that the magic system needs a bit of an overhaul. Not to say that it wasn't powerful--it was. It just felt...clumsy?



And yes, level scaling is awful, especially since it seems to, well, not work. Using DAO as a base, Redcliffe is extremely difficult (relatively speaking) right out of Lothering than, say, the Circle tower, which is quite pathetic. Frustratingly enough, the game steers you towards Redcliffe first, too.

[Lord Gremlin]

1varangian wrote...

Azint wrote...

I disliked how you could bribe your way to your party member's adoration. The gift system should be much more conservative.

That's a good point. They're all a bunch of materialists who will sell their ideals for a cheap trinket.

For cakes. Don't know if sugar cakes are in main game or in DLC (Feastday gifts/pranks DLC is free in Russian PS store, so I had it all the time), but I'd sell my ideas for such good cakes. They're not a lie.

[1varangian]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

NO NO and NO. I disagree with point 1. I've already suggested - please, don't make Dragon Age 2 Demon's Souls's style difficult, it distracts from the story. If you fail to Loghain 10 times in a row it means he won. And if you won on 11th try it never happened. Don't break immersion, don't ruin the story.
In Demon's Souls it was ok, it's a part of the story there - you die and rot hundreds of times. In Dragon Age when you die "your journey is over". So I strongly disagree. I know there are sick people who like being screwed halfway through the game and being forced to replay 60 hours. I don't! In Demon's Souls if you caught plague and a crowd of swamp giants is onto you you could die and then come back for revenge, nothing lost except for current souls and dignity (and all demon's will be resurrected, but screw them).

I can't replay the game because combat feels tedious and pointless. Dead characters bouncing back on their feet after the fight kill the immersion of the gameworld for me.

But what would you do in Dragon Age when you're stuck in a battle you can't win and can't resupply/heal injuries?

Turn down the difficulty.

Since they provide different difficulty settings there should be one for everyone.

[Narreneth]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

NO NO and NO. I disagree with point 1. I've already suggested - please, don't make Dragon Age 2 Demon's Souls's style difficult, it distracts from the story. If you fail to Loghain 10 times in a row it means he won. And if you won on 11th try it never happened. Don't break immersion, don't ruin the story.
In Demon's Souls it was ok, it's a part of the story there - you die and rot hundreds of times. In Dragon Age when you die "your journey is over". So I strongly disagree. I know there are sick people who like being screwed halfway through the game and being forced to replay 60 hours. I don't! In Demon's Souls if you caught plague and a crowd of swamp giants is onto you you could die and then come back for revenge, nothing lost except for current souls and dignity (and all demon's will be resurrected, but screw them). But what would you do in Dragon Age when you're stuck in a battle you can't win and can't resupply/heal injuries?

Who's ever lost to Loghain?  Also no one's saying anything about perma-death here, so what are you freaking out about?

[Bugzehat]

SirOccam wrote...

It's not so much a big flaw, in fact they did a great job on it overall, but I hope companion interaction gets improved.
When my City Elf who was romancing Morrigan went to the Alienage and turned down the Tevinter dude's offer to sacrifice the elven slaves for a minor constitution bump...Morrigan disapproves? I mean come ON. Even Morrigan can not honestly expect me to sacrifice my own FATHER.

My city elf kicked her out of the party for that

I agree, though. Morrigan did come across as comically evil at some points, which is a shame, because I don't think that's really what was intended for her character.

[Paromlin]

Excellent points OP. I especially care about the first two points (combat & level scaling) and couldn't agree more.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


DAO's design favours tactical planning over strategic planning in every possible circumstance.  I'm not thrilled about that design choice, but it was an explicit choice the DAO team made.  

Which is a bad choice. Completely neglecting one aspect of gameplay is simply bad; there's no way around it.

[Grommash94]

Paromlin wrote...

Excellent points OP. I especially care about the first two points (combat & level scaling) and couldn't agree more.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


DAO's design favours tactical planning over strategic planning in every possible circumstance.  I'm not thrilled about that design choice, but it was an explicit choice the DAO team made.  

Which is a bad choice.

Not to everyone, it seems. Although I agree with you, some people do think that the game's combat is fine as it is, in terms of difficulty and everything.

[1varangian]

I'm under the impression that the people who like the combat play the game mostly for the story and the characters.



The forgiving resurrection mechanics and the infinite potions really take the edge off combat for those who enjoy a challenge. I would greatly enjoy the challenge of keeping my party members alive. Instead of just letting them die over and over because it doesn't mean anything.



I can't help feeling I'm cheating when my party members get torn apart / incinerated / impaled / crushed and then wake up with -2 dex.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I play these games for the roleplaying, and to some degree the roleplaying relies on the internal consistency of the setting. So I don't really care about how difficult the combat encounters are, as long as that difficulty and the mechanics of the combat make sense within the game's setting.

Scaling absolutely does not make sense within the setting (though a bigger problem is how the companions continue to gain experience even if you leave them in the camp - that was a terrible idea).

DAO's death mechanic certainly wasn't ideal (though it was better than ME or KotOR), but I give the designers credit for realising how nonsensical most fantasy settings are as a result of resurrection magic, and trying not to have any in Thedas.

[winter troll]

ok this angry rant might annoy some people but as some one who loves rpgs i feel responsible to say this : when compared to great rpgs dragon age falls really short , I'm talking from perspective of the witcher , fable and vampire masquerade .

1. first flaw is lack of soul . Designs , clothing and many things about the game completely fail to represent society it tries to portrait . Poor doesn't have rugged and patches on their clothes , city elf bride wore same dress as the human princess . Overall npcs clothing , activities and looks were paid very little attention . Humans all look the same , when you fight thugs there are no brute , slender or small body builds for example . Every one looks just the same . Overall all bioware games have this trait , all cities feel incredible artificial compared to what you experience in the witcher . Also once you passed area , you will never return there and monsters never re-spawn . You could make games longer by extending time you would use each area and have players comeback when they receive new objectives . So i think your idea to change visual style to stand out would be a wonderful idea indeed .



2. Level designs and selection . 'tis was a nifty way to get out of making new stages and new gear for every level by letting players choose levels in what ever order they wish to play . So there is no need for each level to contain new sets of armor and weapons scaled for the new difficulty . Also biggest annoyance i had , is that without game guide you can spend playing half of the game without finding good gear for your character because i didnt choose levels that are good for my character first .

3. Plain objectives , and you ALWAYS know what to expect . Never game produces different situations , never you had flee tying to survive or trying to sneak into the base . Never were you betrayed and had to fight your way out and so on . You always know that you can resolve everything with standard fighting . Also never there were different scenarios introduced where you would need to do something different to win . For example vampire had one mission where you had to fight gargoyle in cinema , to survive its attacks you had to hide behind columns which it would smash trying to get you , slowing it down giving you opportunity to strike . Why when fighting large number of darkspawn wouldn't they put up a shield wall or use formations against you ? Game never surprised you significantly



4. hair , most of hairstyles in your games are atrociously looking and are poorly animated . Is this really too much to ask for long hair that looks good ? I mean is Gerald of Rivia only fantasy hero who is capable of having decent long hair ???!!



5. Gear , leather armor was ugly , robes were in general ugly . There was no real triers of armor progression , idea of rpgs is to get louse gear in the start then as you go upgrading to get better stuff . And here were are starting game with dragon armor ....... also all robes looked the same , and high level robes should have had increased protection including leather and iron breast plates . Overall i felt that there weren't very many armor options in the game .



6. Unorthodox choices , why a game that claims to be all about your personal choices never gives you choices ? Why with all that talk about mages turning into demons you couldn't become corrupt enough become one ? Elder scrolls allow you to become a monster (vampire or werewolf ) for sake of power, sure its a bit unbalanced , but people tend to choose evil path because of the pay offs not for sake of being evil . Or why is it every time you asked to go get a holy grail you ALWAYS comply , why dont you just kill sick old king and use opportunity to take over ? Again for sake of game-play you would find some other need to go to that area otherwise it would be waste of designers time but at least it would be for a completely different reason .



THis one is my personal bias , i like more action based rgps so i think dragon age could have used more robust and action packed combat . I felt like dragon age was singly more innovative then NWN 2 but in essence it was just same thing . I mean jade empire had very simplistic combat , but it really looked spectacular , trying to make combat feel fun and look like actual combat would be a great thing for game so focused on fighting .



last thing i would like to mention is please dont make more pokemon ranch games like mass effect 2 . Game has more companions then you know what to do with , i think it would be more fruitful for you have fewer but better developed characters . And no , not all of them need to have some sobbing , horrid history , lets have some happy and jolly lads too.

[Celticon]

1varangian wrote...

Triggering a trap that almost incinerates the entire party is completely meaningless when you recover from it in a matter of seconds, and you even end up triggering them on purpose because it's faster than disarming.

This would severely disadvantage players who do not have a rogue in their party, let alone a rogue with points in mechanical skill and high cunning. Unless they raise the party limit to 5-6, this would be present too much selective pressure and discourage experimentation with other party arrangements that lack trap-related abilities. 

1varangian wrote...

The persistent injuries fail at fixing this, as
they too are nothing more than a minor inconvenience. The minimal
penalties for a "cracked skull" are not even believable and the injuries
are effortless to remove. For fighting to be exciting you should be
forced to avoid damage at all cost, but in DA you don't really
care. This really undermines the overall immersion of the game.

The
same carefree approach applies to magic. You can mindlessly blast away
with your most powerful spells at the weakest enemies. Sadly, your most
powerful spells become less special and more mundane with each casting.
The need for resource management is missing completely. Forcing the
player to think how and when to use their mana would also be very
rewarding when done successfully. I'm not a fan of the mage staff and
the unlimited magic attacks either that effectively make them
mage+archer. Archers should be important as well, and not because they
have some uber arrow with aoe paralyze that makes no sense at all.

If they want to make a "hardcore mode" for masochists, power to them, but I don't want to see any of that becoming involuntary in any of the other difficulty modes.

It's almost like removing health and shield regen from Mass Effect. You say that you're not fond of "infinite potions," but how else would people recover after fights? Should they have to wait around for some arbitrarily-long period of time for their natural HP regen to pick up or regen mana for heals?

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
 (though a bigger
problem is how the companions continue to gain experience even if you
leave them in the camp - that was a terrible idea).

Trust me, people won't like having to grind unused party members back up to par with the rest of the group if they decide they want to switch them out for a change.

Modifié par Celticon, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:00 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Celticon wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

(though a bigger problem is how the companions continue to gain experience even if you leave them in the camp - that was a terrible idea).

Trust me, people won't like having to grind unused party members back up to par with the rest of the group if they decide they want to switch them out for a change.

You say that like it's the only alternative.

Instead, why not use an exponential XP curve (like 1st edition AD&D did)?  Then, even if someone has 0 XP and you have some higher number (it literally doesn't matter how much higher), you can level them to one level short of where you are simply by keeping them with you for a single level of the higher level character.

For example, if level 14 begins at 250,000 XP and ends at 500,000 XP (again this sort of explonential curve has been used in games before), then adding a level 1 character with 0 XP to your party means that as your main main character goes from level 14 to level 15 (and 250,000 XO to 500,000 XP), that other character will rise from level 1 (at 0 XP) to level 14 (at 250,000 XP), thus ending up ion a single level behind.

DAO already established that the level range within a party can be as much as 2 levels, so this simple tweak to the XP curve immediately eliminates the need to hand those unused companions free XP at all.