776 réponses à ce sujet

[Jimmy Fury]

Oh he won't be getting away with it on a forum either. That's what the report feature is for. Eventually all trolls make the mistake of crossing the line into reportable behavior. Just gotta be patient.

[Daewan]

Tirigon wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Irony dictates that not only will the gay option be very burly and hairy, but that he will also be a mage of the shapeshifter specialization and actually turn into a bear.

It would indeed be awesome.

Congratulations, you have ruined my one chance to contribute something meaningful to this discussion.  Now all I can think is, DO WANT.  I had nothing against Zevran, except you know, every elf I created and most of the male humans.  Constantly.  But THIS.  How would Hawke get anything done?  75% of game time would be spent in camp!  Or whatever the Kirkwall equivalent is.

[Wynne]

TheJist wrote...

So if this game had no romances whatsoever would you not buy it? Sure the general basics of the story have  been done before but all in all that is what you buy the game for  (hopefully).

I would buy it. But it would feel like the story was somehow so much less for the absence. Love and sex are part of life. When they're absent, a game world feels so much... smaller. Sort of like if, when you cut open a darkspawn, flowers come flying out--I could tolerate the weirdness, but it would stand out and bother me. It would be odd to play a character who expressed no intimate feelings; I would find it very difficult to relate to that character, and wonder what was wrong with them. Even if a person for some reason (unfathomable to me, personally) identifies as asexual or fears sex, they tend to want love, and even if a person fears or distrusts the idea of love, they tend to want sex. To be interested in neither is simply inhuman. A person like that might exist, but I've sure never met one, and if I did I think I'd be deeply disturbed. They would likely be a very troubled person in need of help in recovering from severe emotional trauma.

Not the case with something like Sonic the Hedgehog, where--he's a freaking hedgehog, and I don't give a crap. Neither would I care in a game where the scope is limited to a specific time period in a character's life. But in a game which tries to suck you in and present a realistic, gripping universe... if there's no hint of romance, then I'm sure not going to feel either quality. Certainly not if the game takes place over the course of a year or more. If nothing else, the complete lack of a relationship should be consistently lampshaded, and a reason given for why the character is or isn't lonely.

Jimmy Fury wrote...

Anyway, my dislike was purely technical, his skin looked like leather. Reminded me way too much of  those people who use tanning beds on a daily basis to the point where they look like jerky by time they're 30. I live in south florida.  they're eeeeeeverywhere [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]

*lmao* Oh, thank goodness, it's not just me! I hated that about Zevran and only really was able to appreciate the character once I got a mod to fix his looks. Somebody really dropped the ball on his appearance. I guess they were trying to be original, but we already had a (reddish) blond in Alistair... two blond guys is too much when the second looks like he also slathered on a Lohan-tan. (Seriously, what is with a gorgeous freckled redhead bleaching all the beautiful color out of her hair and tanning all the freckles into nothingness? Horrifying. Makes you wonder if Zev was a redhead once...)

Also--I'm expecting a bear for next time, or at least somebody very different from Zev. And I'd also expect a very not-pushy guy. Sort of like what they call the "Straight Gay" on TV Tropes; the kind of guy you wouldn't automatically peg as gay, who almost wouldn't set off the gaydar at all because he acts very businesslike and resists expressing his emotions. I think straight guys feel less threatened by that type, and they avoid being stereotypes, and they open more minds than somebody like Zevran would about what gay guys are really like. Seriously, that would be awesome.

I don't think anybody would mind a gay guy who was very reserved at first. If you're romancing him, it's more fun when there's tension anyway. If you're not romancing him, then he could be all sarcastic, like, "what, you think just because I prefer men that I find YOU attractive? You are NOT my type, friend." That would help even insecure straight guys feel comfortable around him. Like, "he's my gay wingman." That might even be cute, if a straight Hawke met a pretty girl with a shy brother... but now I'm beginning to worry that I'm sounding like a dork, which is probably a good cue to shush.

David Gaider wrote...

I get what you're saying, but some empathy might not be out of order. Consider the matter of privilege-- a straight person sees romances they like and can identify with in the media all the time. It's ubiquitous and perhaps even taken a little for granted. Having a romance in a video game might be an appreciated extra, but it goes without question that if there is a romance it'll be something targeted at them. A gay person is not so fortunate, and so
maybe could be cut some slack for getting a bit upset at the response of "what's your problem?" when they ask if they could maybe be represented as well.

To demand it and be overzealous, or suggest that they have the right to be represented... well, you are perhaps right that this goes too far. All I'm suggesting is that it's easy to say it's not an issue when it's not even remotely an issue for you. I think in an ideal world we'd all like to have something in the game that every player could call their own.

I wish I had something useful to add to this post, but it's really just being purely QFT. Very nicely said.

Modifié par Wynne, 21 juillet 2010 - 01:09 .

[iTomes]

"Also--I'm expecting a bear for next time, or at least somebody very different from Zev. And I'd also expect a very not-pushy guy. Sort of like what they call the "Straight Gay" on TV Tropes; the kind of guy you wouldn't automatically peg as gay, who almost wouldn't set off the gaydar at all because he acts very businesslike and resists expressing his emotions. I think straight guys feel less threatened by that type, and they avoid being stereotypes, and they open more minds than somebody like Zevran would about what gay guys are really like. Seriously, that would be awesome."



cant agree with you more. with my male characters it was impossibly creepy for me to talk to zev when i was playing a male. and dont get me wrong im not homophobe or something, but im also not very old (close to 18 actually) what really makes a difference in that kind of... thing. i kinda liked the way how lelianna did this and would kinda like it if they made the gay romance like her this time... . when i first talked to zevran in DA1 i played a male and didn't even knew gay relationships were possible in this game my face kinda lost colour...

[Altima Darkspells]

Daewan wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...

Irony dictates that not only will the gay option be very burly and hairy, but that he will also be a mage of the shapeshifter specialization and actually turn into a bear.

It would indeed be awesome.

Congratulations, you have ruined my one chance to contribute something meaningful to this discussion.  Now all I can think is, DO WANT.  I had nothing against Zevran, except you know, every elf I created and most of the male humans.  Constantly.  But THIS.  How would Hawke get anything done?  75% of game time would be spent in camp!  Or whatever the Kirkwall equivalent is.

If it makes you feel any better, there's a better chance that you'll get your burly bear than I'll get a domineering butch warrior.  Because women are supposed to look hot and be either mages or archers, apparently.

[Saibh]

slimgrin wrote...

Just put gay romance in the game already. I'm tired of developers skirting around this topic like a bunch of scared cats. Movies don't avoid it. Art in general doesn't either. Even-prime time TV programs have been brave enough to tackle the subject.

Many Gamers are in their 30's already. They are adults. And I think they can safely handle a pass from a fictional, pixelated person of the same sex without it damaging their psyche. Homosexuality is a fact of human character and its fact of society. Always has been.

Bioware, please understand that you're games are enjoyed by people more than capable of dealing with mature content.

You guys start making you're games 'kid friendly' and I'm out of here.

I think you must have not read a single post the devs and writers have made on this topic.

That, and you evidently didn't play Jade Empire or the first Dragon Age, since both include gay romance. Mass Effect has it on the fan-service lesbian half, but it's still there.

Modifié par Saibh, 21 juillet 2010 - 01:50 .

[Deviija]

Wynne wrote...
Sort of like what they call the "Straight Gay" on TV Tropes; the kind of guy you wouldn't automatically peg as gay, who almost wouldn't set off the gaydar at all because he acts very businesslike and resists expressing his emotions. I think straight guys feel less threatened by that type, and they avoid being stereotypes, and they open more minds than somebody like Zevran would about what gay guys are really like. Seriously, that would be awesome.

In other words, how the majority of gay guys are -- just normal dudes that happen to like other dudes instead of chicks.  That is how it should be.  The huge campy stereotype that the media perpetuates, just because it is comedic, is not the norm.  

Heck, Zev was bisexual and admits that he's more interested in women than men, but he still gets slammed and put down from nearly all audience segments.  He's too flamboyant, he's too this, he's too that, regardless of his actual sexual stance.  So yes, I'd rather someone just write for a male character -- Jacob, Garrus, Joker, Alistair -- and have him just happen to like guys. 

I also think the wingman angle is a great angle for people to digest, too.  Again, Garrus is a great example of a wingman type of character for the ME franchise.  Garrus would still be Garrus if he liked the company of other guys.  Doesn't change anything about his friendship or projected personality.  

Modifié par Deviija, 21 juillet 2010 - 01:51 .

[Captain Jazz]

Hmm. I wonder how many replies in this thread have been relaying the totally true fact (or TTF if you will) that homosexuality is eeeeevil and immoral?

I am a straight (ish...) male with absolutely no desire to engage in romance with men in the real world (I find male genitalia... off putting, and sure, sex isn't everything but relationships without it get frustrating for fairly obvious reasons) but I've always considered that the point of a roleplay game is to play a role that is not your own (hell, most of my characters in most games are female) and I see no moral or rational reason to limit the choices available for the lurve interests (well, obviously some limits are understandable, we can't go marrying everyone in the game - this isn't Fable, we do have *some* pride) but yeah... *rambleramble*

Romance good. Inclusive romance gooder. Inclusive romance and seriously, someone more appealing than Zevran, goodest. (I don't know... Zevran is creepy... maybe it's just an innate hetero prejudice to amoral blonde cutthroats?)

[Sandiel]

I maintain the best romance solution is to let every romancable character be romancable on any given playthrough through by any given player. It really is the easiest way to handle it and neatly avoids any problems, even if at the cost of a little 'specification'.

[Saibh]

slimgrin wrote...

Saibh wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Just put gay romance in the game already. I'm tired of developers skirting around this topic like a bunch of scared cats. Movies don't avoid it. Art in general doesn't either. Even-prime time TV programs have been brave enough to tackle the subject.

Many Gamers are in their 30's already. They are adults. And I think they can safely handle a pass from a fictional, pixelated person of the same sex without it damaging their psyche. Homosexuality is a fact of human character and its fact of society. Always has been.

Bioware, please understand that you're games are enjoyed by people more than capable of dealing with mature content.

You guys start making you're games 'kid friendly' and I'm out of here.

I think you must have not read a single post the devs and writers have made on this topic.

That, and you evidently didn't play Jade Empire or the first Dragon Age, since both include gay romance. Mass Effect has it on the fan-service lesbian half, but it's still there.

Then why does this thread exist? This is about gay male romance, not pseudo lesbian romance. The devs already wrote that one off as not official - Asari aren't female. The type of response that makes me laugh, really.

No matter. If m/m romance is in DA2, I'll gladly eat crow. 

This thread exists for the same reason a lot of "I hope they don't do this!" and "I hope they keep doing this!" threads do--because we don't know yet. Just because someone raises a suspicion doesn't mean they're right.

Whether or not you believe it, the devs have said--and while I don't believe they're telling us the exact truth for ME, I believe it for this game--the inclusion of a same-sex romance presents the problem of spending a lot of money and effort on a portion of the game most fans won't enjoy or take advantage of. It doesn't have anything to do with them ignoring the issue or being afraid to broach it. Because Origins had gay romances. It has been broached, and there was no media outrage; I do believe if there is no gay romance, it's because of time and money constraints. Jade Empire had gay romances as well.

And for Shepard? Even if Liara's not human and doesn't judge gender the same way, why wouldn't Shepard? Everyone refers to her as "she", she looks and sounds exactly like a human female, she has female sex organs (er...presumably), even their society has strong feminine overtones...she is female in everything but name. Regardless, I agree that she sort of is a cop-out for an actual same-sex romance. 

Also Kelly doesn't count.

[Jimmy Fury]

Deviija wrote...

Wynne wrote...
Sort of like what they call the "Straight Gay" on TV Tropes; the kind of guy you wouldn't automatically peg as gay, who almost wouldn't set off the gaydar at all because he acts very businesslike and resists expressing his emotions. I think straight guys feel less threatened by that type, and they avoid being stereotypes, and they open more minds than somebody like Zevran would about what gay guys are really like. Seriously, that would be awesome.

In other words, how the majority of gay guys are -- just normal dudes that happen to like other dudes instead of chicks.  That is how it should be.  The huge campy stereotype that the media perpetuates, just because it is comedic, is not the norm.  

Heck, Zev was bisexual and admits that he's more interested in women than men, but he still gets slammed and put down from nearly all audience segments.  He's too flamboyant, he's too this, he's too that, regardless of his actual sexual stance.  So yes, I'd rather someone just write for a male character -- Jacob, Garrus, Joker, Alistair -- and have him just happen to like guys. 

I also think the wingman angle is a great angle for people to digest, too.  Again, Garrus is a great example of a wingman type of character for the ME franchise.  Garrus would still be Garrus if he liked the company of other guys.  Doesn't change anything about his friendship or projected personality.  

This can also apply to the idea of s/s romances requiring additional resources for dialogue choices, voice acting, etc. I really, personally, don't see any need for the romances to be any different.  The content cut from ME1 and the modded s/s Alistair and Morrigan romances worked perfectly aside from a few random gender-specific titles like "ma'am" and "lovely lady". Drop or replace those and tada, the conversations fit perfectly no matter what sex the Shep or Warden is.

Basically my point is; there's no set of behavioral standards for people. There's no formula for a gay or lesbian romance, we do the same stupid embarassing crap as straight people.

[In Exile]

slimgrin wrote...

Then why does this thread exist? This is about gay male romance, not pseudo lesbian romance. The devs already wrote that one off as not official - Asari aren't female. The type of response that makes me laugh, really.

No matter. If m/m romance is in DA2, I'll gladly eat crow. 

If we file asari as a different species, suddenly we have a game with the equivalent of bestiality in it. And if we cross that line, might as well have same-sex romance.

[Saibh]

In Exile wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Then why does this thread exist? This is about gay male romance, not pseudo lesbian romance. The devs already wrote that one off as not official - Asari aren't female. The type of response that makes me laugh, really.

No matter. If m/m romance is in DA2, I'll gladly eat crow. 

If we file asari as a different species, suddenly we have a game with the equivalent of bestiality in it. And if we cross that line, might as well have same-sex romance.

D: That...has a lot of Unfortunate Implications, in the way you phrased that sentence.

And...asari are a different species! So are turians, drell, quarians, and everything, you know, not human. I can see where you don't get the "they don't count as same-sex" argument, since they're most certainly Discount Lesbians, but the aliens are still "people" just not "human". That's the difference between beastiality and xenophilia. Not that I could ever possibly apply this to the real world, but in game, that's the justification.

slimgrin wrote...

Well, fair enough. But I have to wonder about the additional time
and money required for what amounts to a few extra lines of dialog.

The
number of lines included for me to romance either Jack in ME2 or Zevran
In DA:O are pretty minimal. 

I will say that, while the ME romances are not as detailed as DA:O, they use a lot of unique movements and animations.

As for the DA romances...oh, wow, toolset disagrees.  Remember, that in practically every conversation you can have with any of the romance options, flirtation/romance is presented. I can't possibly even begin to give you examples, but they are all over the place. Just think about all the different romantic conversations (earring, romantically interested, asks for sex, you ask for sex, after sex, jealous dialogue, gates of Denerim, you chose someone else dialogue, refuses sex for first time, and more) , conversations with heavy romantic overtones (Taliesen dead, what will you do with me?, Isabela, and so on). Every single personal conversation you have and you're able to flirt with him. The list goes on and on and on.

That's not to mention all of the cutscenes and editing they have to do to make the character's motions and face match what they're saying, the tangled branches of the dialogue tree, recording the voice acting (if the character is bi, then you have to do many different lines for men or women), writing it, animating the romance scenes, and more that I lack the technical-know-how to express.

A lot of work goes in there. And if only a tiny tiny percentage of your players are going to take advantage of all of this, it's hard to justify why it's necessary to the studio.

Please don't take this to mean I'm against same-sex romances--I most certainly think they should be in there--and I get that it must suck not to be included just because money is more important, ergo heteros win!, but I just don't like people thinking that it's all about bigotry and fear. And to help realize how much effort goes into making the romances that do appear, hetero or gay.

[In Exile]

Saibh wrote...
D: That...has a lot of Unfortunate Implications, in the way you phrased that sentence.

...I can't believe I said that. I by no means am implying what could be implied by the wording.

And...asari are a different species! So are turians, drell, quarians, and everything, you know, not human. I can see where you don't get the "they don't count as same-sex" argument, since they're most certainly Discount Lesbians, but the aliens are still "people" just not "human". That's the difference between beastiality and xenophilia. Not that I could ever possibly apply this to the real world, but in game, that's the justification.

I think they should count as basically human. I mean, seriously, they look exacty like women, sound like women, have the same genitals as women... they're like some guys cosplay fantasy.

All that I wanted to do was say that if we try and cop out of the asari being a same-sex scene on the basis of them being wholly inhuman, then we're implying some else that would hurt the moral sensibilities of an anti-gay bigot even more took place. But I never mean to word it in such an obiously offensive way.

Modifié par In Exile, 21 juillet 2010 - 03:27 .

[Tirigon]

In Exile wrote...


If we file asari as a different species, suddenly we have a game with the equivalent of bestiality in it. And if we cross that line, might as well have same-sex romance.

Asari ARE a different species.
However, they are not animals so no bestiality.
And anywways bestiality is legal unless the animal partner says no.

[Tirigon]

In Exile wrote...

I think they should count as basically human. I mean, seriously, they look exacty like women, sound like women, have the same genitals as women... they're like some guys cosplay fantasy.

Well, if we judge by hentai standards, then tentacles should count as legitimate lovers, too:unsure:



However, I agree with your point. If sex with non-humans is ok, why sex with humans of the same gender isn´t?
I sense some serious bigotry here...........

[Archmage_Etherial]

I find this topic interesting and I know there has been much said regarding it, but I couldn't help but signing up to the BioWare Social Network JUST so I could reply to it haha.

First, I would just like to say I do completely sympathize with people who do not like that the main character they play in the game who is either supposed to be the most ideal reflection of the themselves or the best hero/villain they could ever construct during their gameplay experience and then they find that they do not have all the tools to create a character that can fit this on a VERY basic level.  I mean imagine how often people play a game and the main character is white and there is NO other option to change skin tone to at least give the feel a person is playing a character they might relate to.  So I profess that homosexuals are not the only ones slighted constantly during epic games such as Mass Effect when it comes to characters.  This is indeed a company that has a targetted agenda and gaming audience.  That being said...

I would like to add that BioWare does often surprise and embrace many people that other gaming companies tend to give minimal spotlight to.  While I agree with the poster that most likely this game will slight the minorities sexual, racial, or otherwise...I also would like to say that the game itself is still great, and that is why we are all here playing it (or at this point in time eagerly awaiting to play).  I will be the first to say that it does dissapoint me when I see a game like Dragon Age: Origins and then go and play Mass Effect 2 and feel as though BioWare made tons of progress in one area and then took steps back in others.  Certainly, they are two vastly different generes and people have different expectations and well as BioWare trying not to be the same game simply redone with a different title to boot.

Lastly!  I just want to say let us not forget that when there is more breadth, depth, story, and customizability to their games, BioWare gets EVERYONE in there.  So I would say if nothing else happens count on homosexual romance arcs for your main character in their MMORPG The Old Republic.  Everyone is going to get a piece of the pie!<3

[Shepard Lives]

TeachingFellow wrote...

It's one thing if there is a voiceless PC.  However, EA is going to hype the hell out of Hawke (and only the male Hawke, mind you, even if the actress is just as good or even better than the actor) and God forbid that a heterosexual male in the year 2010 even has to think that us gays exist, led alone be presented the option to play as a homosexual.  There will be a lesbian romance option, because straight men fetishize lesbianism, and the absence of the gay male option will draw attention to that fact and detract from the feeling of open-minded inclusion for some lesbian players. 

We will--at best--be "treated" to a few effiminate stereotypes.  We will certainly not see a Zevran.  Or, at worst, we will see someone who is exactly like Zevran, but without the depth of character to rise a little above the stereotypes.

Prove me wrong, Bioware.  Make a game that is respectful towards all of your fanbase.  You don't have to pander to us, but at least include us.  You did it once before, now let's try for two out of two. 

But I hope nobody holds their breath.

P.S.--I know that Bioware representatives are really good about reading and responding to the forums, but please, don't give me any of that "wait and see" crap; just "you are wrong" or "you are right" or keep your mouths shut.  I know full well that the reality is that I will probably be long dead before the stigma of homosexuality is eased to the point that a mass-appeal commercial product can truly include us, and your corporate masters absolutely have the right to dictate your design process to maximize profit.  Just don't try to hand-wave it away now, because that's only going to underline the bitter realities of our society when or if I play the final product and see them play out clear as day.

I'm with you on this one. I am heterosexual, but I have this exact same feeling. I mean, the only thing the "moral" watchdogs would find worse than a sex simulator (see Mass Effect) would be a homosexual sex simulator.  It is sad that even a person's gaming freedom can be restricted by a bunch of bigoted idiots and their sexually insecure followers.

[spcwolf]

I really dont see why this is that important in the first place. I am not much of a fan of the idea, of video games turning into the next porn industry. Whats the most important part of the game? The amount of sex you can have or the actually story telling and amount of fun you have until boredom?

[joriandrake]

jln.francisco wrote...


Isn't that the point though? being told you don't rate what someone else does for no other reason then society doesn't like you?

there is a bit more to it than "not liking" to it, you are a minority against the majority of normal people, there is no necessity to fulfill your sexual fantasies because time spent on creating deeper normal healthy relationships is for sure gathering more interested buyers and thus the developer makes more cash aswell

from a purely production perspective adding options for abnormal minority just doesn't pay them as much as focusing on heterosexual relationships in the game, the only cause they even include lesbian option now and then is because that is also much popular with males and thus adding that option is of a reasonably low risk level

[HopHazzard]

spcwolf wrote...

I really dont see why this is that important in the first place. I am not much of a fan of the idea, of video games turning into the next porn industry. Whats the most important part of the game? The amount of sex you can have or the actually story telling and amount of fun you have until boredom?

Who said anything about porn? You've got a smutty mind, dude.