776 réponses à ce sujet

[hoysexyjew]

In a nutshell "I'm so pissed off, I can't be gay in a video game"

Oh noes! we all feel so bad for you OP! You're so misunderstood!

Modifié par hoysexyjew, 16 juillet 2010 - 08:00 .

[Bugzehat]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

You're right, he didn't. I forgot to read what he wrote after "there won't even be any homosexual AT ALL", which was "BioWare are a bunch of sexist pigs who enjoy watching digital women screw".

And people wonder why these boards are so homophobic.

A couple of pages back but I just couldn't leave this alone. I agree that Fellow was being too aggressive, but blaming gay people for homophobia? Seriously?

David, your post was rather cryptic and I bet people are going to read a lot into it, but I get that you can't say much more right now. Still keeping my fingers crossed for bisexual characters in DA2, though  It may not be 'discrimination' not to include them, since no-one has a 'right' to video game romances of any sort, but it would definitely be a step backwards from a game that actually (shock horror) acknowledged that gay/bi players exist.

[PanosSmirnakos]

My opinion...



Please Bioware,

- No gay romances for DA 2.

- No cheesy sex scenes.

- No bisexual elves, orcs or whatever.

- No dating simulators.



As others before me said, Jade empire had handled the romance plots just right. If you are going to do it, do it with JE's style. Less straight-forward, more elegant, so more romantic.

[Onyx Jaguar]

My opinion

-No cheesy Sex scenes, if you can't do it right then don't do it

-Numerous gay romances, and also for once put a romance that takes place out of characters in your party

-Jade Empire exists

-dating simulators? Could be for or against. I haven't seen anything that would make me against it actually.

[Rurik948]

To be honest we seem to be lucky to have any possibility of courting in DA2. Romances in DA2 are still not confirmed by developers.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Maybe there will be pseudo romances, but they always end up dead. That would be awesome

Modifié par Onyx Jaguar, 16 juillet 2010 - 08:06 .

[Sanzee]

My hell you're negative.

[mosaiclobster]

David Gaider wrote...
There's a fallacy at work among people who come to these forums that romances, once they're included in a game, become a right-- that if we have romances they must be allocated "fairly" or it's disciminatory. But you don't have a right to romances in a game-- any more than you have a right to free worship or to be an elf. It's a difficult issue to discuss, because we don't look on it as an issue of fairness. It's content, like any other sort of content, and we'll only ever be able to include a limited amount of it so we have to make the best of it we can, and we're always going to try and be inclusive of as many of our players' desires are we can.

I hope you see this as a credit to DA's writing. I don't think people demand these things out of a sense of privelege, I think many of us have just come to except great things from Bioware games in terms of story/romance. DA is one of the only games I know of that afforded players the opportunity for same-sex relationships without it feeling cheap or tittilating.. it's so rare, that I guess the prospect of losing that in the sequel seems scary? For the record I'm not trying to speculate as to whether or not it *is* being included again. I'm just saying that we appreciate the game so much, we want to yell at you to give us more great things! Sounds perfect, right?

[Collider]

Bugzehat wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

You're right, he didn't. I forgot to read what he wrote after "there won't even be any homosexual AT ALL", which was "BioWare are a bunch of sexist pigs who enjoy watching digital women screw".

And people wonder why these boards are so homophobic.

A couple of pages back but I just couldn't leave this alone. I agree that Fellow was being too aggressive, but blaming gay people for homophobia? Seriously?

David, your post was rather cryptic and I bet people are going to read a lot into it, but I get that you can't say much more right now. Still keeping my fingers crossed for bisexual characters in DA2, though  It may not be 'discrimination' not to include them, since no-one has a 'right' to video game romances of any sort, but it would definitely be a step backwards from a game that actually (shock horror) acknowledged that gay/bi players exist.

I agree with this. I really do dislike it when people say that romances are their right and that Bioware is being discriminatory or homophobic (or something of that sort). It is, in my opinion, quite rude to accuse Bioware of such things given that they are one of few & only developers who have the gumption to even provide homosexual content in the first place. That doesn't mean gays and bisexuals should not be unhappy if DA2 or whatever mainstream Bioware RPG doesn't have same sex romances, but I've seen people say certain things about Bioware and just get so disappointed


Anyway - Bioware isn't being discrminatory if same sex romances don't appear in x game. As Gaider said, it's not a matter of fairness so much as resources, the character themselves (as an author myself [though I do not mean to speak for all of them] for some of my characters it's hard to imagine them being certain ways), and other factors. So I would find it a "step back" if same sex romances weren't included, but I wouldn't demonize Bioware as so many do if there aren't any.

[Jimmy Fury]

Riona45 wrote...

Thibbledorf26 wrote...
This is a bit prejudiced against straight men, who you are painting with the same brush. You have acknowledged it already, but yeah this post was not fair to the straight male demographic or to Bioware.

Indeed, because straight males lack privilege and face prejudice for being straight every day of their lives...and especially on these boards.

Yeah I dunno that whole "God forbid that a heterosexual male in the year 2010 even has to think that us gays exist, led alone be presented the option to play as a homosexual.  There will be a lesbian romance option, because
straight men fetishize lesbianism" bit was just over the top.
Most of my friends are straight, none of them have the slightest problem with gays. My best friend and I are so close that some of my coworkers thought we were a couple for 2 weeks. He's completely straight he's just also completely comfortable with my sexuality. So yeah, I kinda took offense to that statement the same way I took offense to the "gay guys can't be manly" thing.
Prejudice works both ways.

Modifié par Jimmy Fury, 16 juillet 2010 - 08:12 .

[Bugzehat]

David Gaider wrote...

Well, how about this then: we're very aware of the desires of our fans when it comes to romances, whether they be homosexual or otherwise. Being able to include any kind of content that's really only useable by a relatively small percentage of the player base is often problematic-- it's not an issue of "want to" but rather "able to". There's also the issue of where you put the resources you have-- adding content for extra player options is great, but if they're options that many players will not use or event want to use it's not necessarily the best use of those resources. I can't really fault a decision to provide more options for a greater amount of players as opposed to less options for everyone.

Hang on, let me give this a better response. I don't want to pick you apart too much here since a) you obviously know the industry better than I do; and you can't tell us much about DA2 romances at this stage.

But is providing same-sex romance options really including a lot more content? My impression was that this is why Leliana and Zevran had been made bi rather than gay -- so that they were still 'accessible' as romance options to the greater gaming population. That way, you weren't including a great deal of content that only a few people were going to access -- other than a few pronoun changes in dialogue. Secondly, I don't think it's fair to say that only gay players are going to use these options -- like we've seen in this thread, a lot of straight people are going to go "eww eww get the gay away from me" but others are slightly more open-minded, and might be interested for roleplay purposes.

[Collider]

Rurik948 wrote...

To be honest we seem to be lucky to have any possibility of courting in DA2. Romances in DA2 are still not confirmed by developers.

I may actually like if there are no romances - and instead they expand friendships with party members.

[Collider]

But is providing same-sex romance options really including a lot more content? My impression was that this is why Leliana and Zevran had been made bi rather than gay -- so that they were still 'accessible' as romance options to the greater gaming population. That way, you weren't including a great deal of content that only a few people were going to access -- other than a few pronoun changes in dialogue. Secondly, I don't think it's fair to say that only gay players are going to use these options -- like we've seen in this thread, a lot of straight people are going to go "eww eww get the gay away from me" but others are slightly more open-minded, and might be interested for roleplay purposes.

I don't think at all that Gaider is saying that only gay or bisexual people will be using same sex content. He is, however, probably true that heterosexual content is more demanded (which I may add, can reasonably therefore be said to be higher priority) than homosexual content.



Secondly, you may notice that the same sex romances with Zevran and Leliana were not entirely the same as the heterosexual versions.

[DaySeeker]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

My opinion...

Please Bioware,
- No gay romances for DA 2.
- No cheesy sex scenes.
- No bisexual elves, orcs or whatever.
- No dating simulators.

As others before me said, Jade empire had handled the romance plots just right. If you are going to do it, do it with JE's style. Less straight-forward, more elegant, so more romantic.

This is just stupid.  Really?  I have not heard a gay person say, "please, no straight romances."  What harm would it do anyone if there were gay romance options.  These arguments are tired.  If there are romance options there should be romance options for everyone.  Don't start talking about people in love with turnips or towtrucks; you all know that is just as stupid.  

Just stop being hateful.. Stop being hateful.  Stop it.  

If you want to romance the opposite gender in a game, then do so, if you don't want to romance someone of the same gender then don't.  It amazes me that anyone could be so upset with the idea of fictional characters loving each other in a game.  Elves are alright, dwarves cool, aliens as long as they are obviously women, fine, but somehow same sex relationships are so frightening that they may not exist in a fictional world you might visit.  They will not recruit you or turn you in real life or in a game.

Bioware, I am already disappointed you cut a gay option out of Mass Effect 2.  I love your games, but if you cut gay romances from DA2 and include straight ones (6 straight ones) then the message would seem to be, "Gays unwelcome."  

Gay gamers exist and role players who like to explore stories from different angles.  I would lose respect for you if you bowed to hatred and curried favor from homophobes, and if you again ignored a sizable portion of you current and prospective audience.

[WilliamShatner]

David Gaider wrote...

TeachingFellow wrote...
I really do hope that Dragon Age continues to be a high-point for gays in video games.  However, I don't want to be one of those who champions something as a given only to be betrayed in the end.  I'd rather sheepishly apologize later for--unintentionally--inflammatory comments than come on after the game is out and say "I was sure they wouldn't forget us in this game."  I don't know what DA2 will be like, and I do hope that I'm wrong, but yelling at me to wait until I hear more won't change the truth of what I said if I happen to be right.

Well, how about this then: we're very aware of the desires of our fans when it comes to romances, whether they be homosexual or otherwise. Being able to include any kind of content that's really only useable by a relatively small percentage of the player base is often problematic-- it's not an issue of "want to" but rather "able to". There's also the issue of where you put the resources you have-- adding content for extra player options is great, but if they're options that many players will not use or event want to use it's not necessarily the best use of those resources. I can't really fault a decision to provide more options for a greater amount of players as opposed to less options for everyone.

There's a fallacy at work among people who come to these forums that romances, once they're included in a game, become a right-- that if we have romances they must be allocated "fairly" or it's disciminatory. But you don't have a right to romances in a game-- any more than you have a right to free worship or to be an elf. It's a difficult issue to discuss, because we don't look on it as an issue of fairness. It's content, like any other sort of content, and we'll only ever be able to include a limited amount of it so we have to make the best of it we can, and we're always going to try and be inclusive of as many of our players' desires are we can.

That said, the Mass Effect team will make its choices and we'll make ours. We'll be happy to let you know what we have in store for you-- when we're ready to even discuss followers in general, never mind romances and the distributions thereof. It's a little early to get upset about this, but I'd like to think that the Dragon Age team has displayed enough willingness in the past to include this kind of content that we'd get a pass-- at least for the moment. But maybe I'm wrong.

I guess that means "No" then.

[Collider]

If there are romance options there should be romance options for everyone.

I disagree with that. Bioware is not the government. They should have full discretion of whether to include same sex romances or not. That said, I disagree with the poster you are quoting completely on gay romances.

I would lose respect for you if you bowed to hatred and curried favor from homophobes, and if you again ignored a sizable portion of you current and prospective audience.

I hope you are not implying that if there are no same sex romances in DA2, Bioware is "bowing to hatred and curried favor from homophobes." That would be quite presumptuous.

[Massadonious1]

DaySeeker wrote...
then the message would seem to be, "Gays unwelcome."  

It would seem to be, but it's not.

[Onyx Jaguar]

After reading a couple of the no romances post I just had an evil thought.



I'm actually now hoping that because of the timeline that party members will get killed off frequently and maybe a couple turn against you to drive the story. Tragedy is a good thing.



Say you befriended someone and were romances this other person, through a series of events your friend kills your lover and leaves you for dead. It would be awesome.

[Kalcalan]

What I don't get is that it seems people feel obliged to translate their real life sexual orientation into the game.



It's supposed to be an RPG, real life sexual orientation shouldn't matter... Lobbying for homosexual romances because you're gay is beside the point. What really matters is whether or not the character is gay.



If in real life I like redheads with French accents, does it mean that all my characters are going to share that trait? Certainly not. It's called roleplaying for a reason. Playing characters with different sexual orientations and different genders is part of the interest of roleplaying. Playing a gay character because you're gay in real life is just unimaginative.

[Collider]

Kalcalan wrote...

What I don't get is that it seems people feel obliged to translate their real life sexual orientation into the game.

It's supposed to be an RPG, real life sexual orientation shouldn't matter... Lobbying for homosexual romances because you're gay is beside the point. What really matters is whether or not the character is gay.

If in real life I like redheads with French accents, does it mean that all my characters are going to share that trait? Certainly not. It's called roleplaying for a reason. Playing characters with different sexual orientations and different genders is part of the interest of roleplaying. Playing a gay character because you're gay in real life is just unimaginative.

You really do not see why some people may want to play as "themselves" in a choice heavy game like Dragon Age?

[Collider]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

After reading a couple of the no romances post I just had an evil thought.

I'm actually now hoping that because of the timeline that party members will get killed off frequently and maybe a couple turn against you to drive the story. Tragedy is a good thing.

Say you befriended someone and were romances this other person, through a series of events your friend kills your lover and leaves you for dead. It would be awesome.

And then said friend travels back in time and kills the protagonist's parents, therefore ending the game. The ending credits scroll against a background of said betrayer eating the remains of the player's mother and father.

[Jimmy Fury]

DaySeeker wrote...
Just stop being hateful.. Stop being hateful.  Stop it.  

I don't want to belittle anything you said because it was all very good but I lol'd at that part because all I could picture was your dwarf ava swatting people on the nose with a newspaper

WilliamShatner wrote...
I guess that means "No" then.

Was it difficult to stick the landing when you jumped all the way to that conclusion? Cuz that's impressive.

Sorry. I'm sleepy. I get a bit  weird when i'm sleepy. I should go to sleep now and stop posting things before it's just one long string of smileys...

[David Gaider]

Bugzehat wrote...
But is providing same-sex romance options really including a lot more content? My impression was that this is why Leliana and Zevran had been made bi rather than gay -- so that they were still 'accessible' as romance options to the greater gaming population. That way, you weren't including a great deal of content that only a few people were going to access -- other than a few pronoun changes in dialogue.

Except that we didn't change more than just "a few pronouns". The same-sex romance paths for both Leliana and Zevran did, in fact, have dialogue that was unique to them. More importantly it requires more than a trivial amount of work to accomodate the option in the romance cutscenes-- and this at a time when we were cutting many other things because of the limited amount of cinematics time we had available.

It's very easy to look at such things in isolation and say "well it couldn't take that long to do!" except that when you have the massive number of things we need to include in an RPG, from the large to the small, it always adds up to more than we can possibly include. So where do you cut? We didn't cut the same-sex romances because we thought they were worth including and added value. Yet even then there were some comments on these forums about Zevran (for example) -- that he was either "too gay", "the wrong kind of gay" or that the fact that Alistair wasn't also included as an option was discriminatory... at which point you start to wonder why you bothered. I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is "all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten is thus "nothing".

Secondly, I don't think it's fair to say that only gay players are going to use these options -- like we've seen in this thread, a lot of straight people are going to go "eww eww get the gay away from me" but others are slightly more open-minded, and might be interested for roleplay purposes.

I did not say that. I said that a minority of players want the option-- and that for many player's it's not an option they want, so its existence as an option-- to them-- has no value. The fact that it has value to that minority of players isn't lost on us, of course, but all I said was that we need to balance accordingly.

WilliamShatner wrote...
I guess that means "No" then.

And this is why I shouldn't be discussing this, I suppose. I've already said we can't talk about what's in the game, and I'm not trying to imply the existence of any romances or the lack thereof. I'm only talking about the assumptions that people seem to be making about why they're included/not included-- but perhaps I should just leave it at that. As I said before, we'll be revealing more in time. At that point I'm certain there will be plenty more opinions to be expressed at length.

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 juillet 2010 - 08:34 .