776 réponses à ce sujet

[PanosSmirnakos]

GodWood wrote...

The introduction thing says "fight like a spartan" so who's to say you won't be able love like one too?

So you think that Spartans were a bunch of gay men wearing tutus? Spartans were the real definition of a dedicated warrior ready to sacrifice everything for his homeland, my friend. So, maybe that's what Bioware really means with the line "fight like a spartan". 

[Onyx Jaguar]

Are you serious? What about the Sacred Band of Thebes? You couldn't possibly find more badass fighters.

[PanosSmirnakos]

DaySeeker wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

My opinion...

Please Bioware,
- No gay romances for DA 2.
- No cheesy sex scenes.
- No bisexual elves, orcs or whatever.
- No dating simulators.

As others before me said, Jade empire had handled the romance plots just right. If you are going to do it, do it with JE's style. Less straight-forward, more elegant, so more romantic.

This is just stupid.  Really?  I have not heard a gay person say, "please, no straight romances."  What harm would it do anyone if there were gay romance options.  These arguments are tired.  If there are romance options there should be romance options for everyone.  Don't start talking about people in love with turnips or towtrucks; you all know that is just as stupid.  

Just stop being hateful.. Stop being hateful.  Stop it.  

If you want to romance the opposite gender in a game, then do so, if you don't want to romance someone of the same gender then don't.  It amazes me that anyone could be so upset with the idea of fictional characters loving each other in a game.  Elves are alright, dwarves cool, aliens as long as they are obviously women, fine, but somehow same sex relationships are so frightening that they may not exist in a fictional world you might visit.  They will not recruit you or turn you in real life or in a game.

Bioware, I am already disappointed you cut a gay option out of Mass Effect 2.  I love your games, but if you cut gay romances from DA2 and include straight ones (6 straight ones) then the message would seem to be, "Gays unwelcome."  

Gay gamers exist and role players who like to explore stories from different angles.  I would lose respect for you if you bowed to hatred and curried favor from homophobes, and if you again ignored a sizable portion of you current and prospective audience.

First, relax. Second, I don't hate you. I don't even know you. How else can I say that I'm not a fan of gay romances in videogames? Respect my opinion if you want me to respect yours. K? 

[DanteCousland]

They also slept with 10 year old boys....

Yes they were badass but they were still gay, you can be both and at the time Age wasn't such a concern so Iguess that makes them paedos as well.....

[Collider]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Are you serious? What about the Sacred Band of Thebes? You couldn't possibly find more badass fighters.

but they lost in the end

[Bugzehat]

David Gaider wrote...

Except that we didn't change more than just "a few pronouns". The same-sex romance paths for both Leliana and Zevran did, in fact, have dialogue that was unique to them. More importantly it requires more than a trivial amount of work to accomodate the option in the romance cutscenes-- and this at a time when we were cutting many other things because of the limited amount of cinematics time we had available.

It's very easy to look at such things in isolation and say "well it couldn't take that long to do!" except that when you have the massive number of things we need to include in an RPG, from the large to the small, it always adds up to more than we can possibly include. So where do you cut? We didn't cut the same-sex romances because we thought they were worth including and added value. Yet even then there were some comments on these forums about Zevran (for example) -- that he was either "too gay", "the wrong kind of gay" or that the fact that Alistair wasn't also included as an option was discriminatory... at which point you start to wonder why you bothered. I'm glad that there were a great many people who expressed that they did value having these options, because I'm afraid that if one's stance is "all or nothing" on something like this the answer nine times out of ten is thus "nothing".

Thanks for the answer -- I wanted some more insight into this, it wasn't meant as an attack (if it was perceived that way). As far as cutscenes go, I'm all in favour of a tasteful 'fade-to-black' scene if that makes it easier to include gay romance

I did not say that. I said that a minority of players want the option-- and that for many player's it's not an option they want, so its existence as an option-- to them-- has no value. The fact that it has value to that minority of players isn't lost on us, of course, but all I said was that we need to balance accordingly.

Okay, I see your point there, and I guess I misread you.

Maybe it would help to explain where I'm coming from. Right now I'm trying to balance the "video game fan who realises I can't demand anything I like from developers" part of me with the "activist and member of the LGBT community who feels I should be demanding gay inclusion in all media, not just DA2 or videogames". Because the thing is, media, including video games, do have a HUGE role to play in combatting homophobia. I'd argue that it's not until homosexuality can be completely brought out of the shadows even in entertainment like TV and games that homosexuality is ever really going to be accepted. I realise the onus to mix things up shouldn't be on BioWare and BioWare alone, it's just that you have a lot of potential to do good and I hope that isn't squandered.

So, let me be another person to say that I really did appreciate the inclusion of gay romance in DA:O, and I'm glad you're taking it into account. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Ziggy]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...
How else can I say that I'm not a fan of gay romances in videogames? Respect my opinion if you want me to respect yours. K? 

You don't have to take the option so why argue that it should be denied it to others who would?

[Lucy Glitter]

Em23 wrote...

You don't have to take the option so why argue that it should be denied it to others who would?

Exactly. Which is why this thread should not exist.

[Tora Panthera]

So far, I have yet to be disappointed with Dragon Age 2. I am a huge fan of different races, but when we were told that we were limited to being human, I accepted it, I'm sure it's for the "greater good". If they do in-fact have romances in this game and it does not include homosexual ones, I'd be given a reason to be disappointed. I'm bisexual, so it doesn't effect me as much as it does homosexual players. But I can sympathize... not being able to feel a connection with your character because you feel forced to be something you don't want to be, it'd be like only being able to play as a male for me...

[Kalfear]

DanteCousland wrote...

They also slept with 10 year old boys....
Yes they were badass but they were still gay, you can be both and at the time Age wasn't such a concern so Iguess that makes them paedos as well.....

Ancient warriors (all of them) did alot of disturbing things!

If people really want to argue symantics, these warriors that slept with other soldiers were also married and didnt consider themselves gay and from what history tells us, none of them carried on the gay sex except when in war as societies wouldnt stand for it. Heck many of those cultures would kill a gay person if found out in normal society, should Bioware also add that bit of history to the game? You can play a gay but there a good chance you will be imprisoned and killed for being gay! Sounds like a fun time to me!

So to just tag them as gay is spinning the topic and the truth of the topics.

Personally I dont care if ther gay stuff in game just as long as it hidden like it was in Jade Empire.
As I said, I had no idea Sky went that way until I read it on the website because you had to actually go looking for that content to find it. It wasnt thrown in your face like Zevran was.

As David said, its content for a small minority. I seen no studies that says gays playing games are this bigger then normal ratio then what it is in real life and real life, though in your face alot now, is still a pretty minor minority truth be told. I could equally demand 3 somes be added. Where does Bioware draw the line? At what point do you say this mionority is more deserving then that minority?

[Collider]

So far, I have yet to be disappointed with Dragon Age 2. I am a huge fan of different races, but when we were told that we were limited to being human, I accepted it, I'm sure it's for the "greater good". If they do in-fact have romances in this game and it does not include homosexual ones, I'd be given a reason to be disappointed. I'm bisexual, so it doesn't effect me as much as it does homosexual players. But I can sympathize... not being able to feel a connection with your character because you feel forced to be something you don't want to be, it'd be like only being able to play as a male for me...

Well even if same sex romances aren't included, it's not as if the player would then have to be forced into romancing a character opposite gender as them. But anyway, I agree.

[Demx]

I just hope negative threads asking about the romance options doesn't comeback and bite us in the butt. I for one, don't want to wait a week before the release date to know about the romance options.

[Collider]

Siradix wrote...
I just hope negative threads asking about the romance options doesn't comeback and bite us in the butt. I for one, don't want to wait a week before the release date to know about the romance options.

I would think that Bioware is used to all of the scathing negativity on the forums. If not now, they will be once this Dragon Age 2 lynching is over.

[Noir201]

Will wait and see, but DA:O was a huge success, if and i mean a big IF, the romances are limited to just male/female and female/male, i would be disapointed, and would see it as another case of devs just taking away parts of the game, regradless of how minor, being taken away again.

While yes DA team different to the ME team, but you get to see a bit of deja vu happening so to speak, but it's too early to judge.

[PanosSmirnakos]

Em23 wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...
How else can I say that I'm not a fan of gay romances in videogames? Respect my opinion if you want me to respect yours. K? 

You don't have to take the option so why argue that it should be denied it to others who would?

I didn't argue with anyone who has a different opinion. I just said what I prefer to see in a video game and what not. Simple.

[David Gaider]

Bugzehat wrote...
Maybe it would help to explain where I'm coming from. Right now I'm trying to balance the "video game fan who realises I can't demand anything I like from developers" part of me with the "activist and member of the LGBT community who feels I should be demanding gay inclusion in all media, not just DA2 or videogames". Because the thing is, media, including video games, do have a HUGE role to play in combatting homophobia. I'd argue that it's not until homosexuality can be completely brought out of the shadows even in entertainment like TV and games that homosexuality is ever really going to be accepted. I realise the onus to mix things up shouldn't be on BioWare and BioWare alone, it's just that you have a lot of potential to do good and I hope that isn't squandered.

Oh, I get it. Trust me. Straight privilege can be just as frustrating as white privilege-- it's very easy for someone to say that it's not an issue when they're not on the receiving end of discrimination. And it's very frustrating to be thoughtlessly exluded when, all things being equal, you could be included. All I was suggesting is that, from a game development standpoint, things aren't generally equal. It's very easy for me to include gay characters in a book I write, for instance, because words are relatively cheap-- it's the same reason I can throw in horses and cloaks and not blink twice. It would be nice, too, if wearing the Developer Hat didn't interfere with the Gaming Enthusiast Hat or any one of the other hats I wear... but a developer simply doesn't have that luxury.

That doesn't mean, of course, that we couldn't always do better. Just because we're a game doesn't mean we're devoid of social responsibility-- but there's only so much we can do. As I've said many times before, games aren't really a good platform for social change. Discussion doesn't hurt, however-- unlike what the OP insinuated, my experience with fellow developers is that we're a pretty educated, open-minded bunch. We're not out to get you (beyond clubbing you over the head and taking your money, that is-- but hey, it's a capitalist world).

Modifié par David Gaider, 16 juillet 2010 - 09:11 .

[PanosSmirnakos]

Kalfear wrote...

DanteCousland wrote...

They also slept with 10 year old boys....
Yes they were badass but they were still gay, you can be both and at the time Age wasn't such a concern so Iguess that makes them paedos as well.....

Ancient warriors (all of them) did alot of disturbing things!

If people really want to argue symantics, these warriors that slept with other soldiers were also married and didnt consider themselves gay and from what history tells us, none of them carried on the gay sex except when in war as societies wouldnt stand for it. Heck many of those cultures would kill a gay person if found out in normal society, should Bioware also add that bit of history to the game? You can play a gay but there a good chance you will be imprisoned and killed for being gay! Sounds like a fun time to me!

So to just tag them as gay is spinning the topic and the truth of the topics.

Personally I dont care if ther gay stuff in game just as long as it hidden like it was in Jade Empire.
As I said, I had no idea Sky went that way until I read it on the website because you had to actually go looking for that content to find it. It wasnt thrown in your face like Zevran was.

As David said, its content for a small minority. I seen no studies that says gays playing games are this bigger then normal ratio then what it is in real life and real life, though in your face alot now, is still a pretty minor minority truth be told. I could equally demand 3 somes be added. Where does Bioware draw the line? At what point do you say this mionority is more deserving then that minority?

Very well said, Kalfear. I agree with every word here.

Modifié par PanosSmirnakos, 16 juillet 2010 - 09:19 .

[Bugzehat]

David Gaider wrote...

Oh, I get it. Trust me. Straight privilege can be just as frustrating as white privilege-- it's very easy for someone to say that it's not an issue when they're not on the receiving end of discrimination. And it's very frustrating to be thoughtlessly exluded when, all things being equal, you could be included. All I was suggesting is that, from a game development standpoint, things aren't generally equal. It's very easy for me to include gay characters in a book I write, for instance, because words are relatively cheap-- it's the same reason I can throw in horses and cloaks and not blink twice. It would be nice, too, if wearing the Developer Hat didn't interfere with the Gaming Enthusiast Hat or any one of the other hats I wear... but a developer simply doesn't have that luxury.

That doesn't mean, of course, that we couldn't always do better. Just because we're a game doesn't mean we're devoid of social responsibility-- but there's only so much we can do. As I've said many times before, games aren't really a good platform for social change. Discussion doesn't hurt, however-- unlike what the OP insinuated, my experience with fellow developers is that we're a pretty educated, open-minded bunch. We're not out to get you (beyond clubbing you over the head and taking your money, that is-- but hey, it's a capitalist world).

Thank you very much for this response, I'm so glad to see you understand where I'm coming from. Really looking forward to the game!

[Collider]

I could equally demand 3 somes be added. Where does Bioware draw the line? At what point do you say this mionority is more deserving then that minority?

Threesomes are not very comparable to the romances between two consenting and non-incestuous adults of the same gender that people are asking for.

[Lintanis]

David Gaider wrote...
We're not out to get you (beyond clubbing you over the head and taking your money, that is-- but hey, it's a capitalist world).

Those EA indoctrine lessons coming alone well I see 

[Firky]

Good on you, OP, for having the guts to aplogise/explain.

I think it's really valuable to have an insight into the practicalities of this kind of thing, thanks to David Gaider. The way other people have discussed their experiences is also interesting. (I've read every post.)

My first playthrough was as a male PC and I was hardly out of Ostagar before I started thinking "Is Alistair coming onto me?" I couldn't find any romance dialogue so I guessed pretty quick that he would be a romance option for the female PC. I was initially a little disappointed by this realisation. But can you imagine trying to write good dialogue for a companion NPC with everything having a condition [is the player male or female]? That would be impossible. So Alistair was perhaps a little more bromancy than I would have expected but it's probably unrealistic to expect that Alistair would have entirely different dialogue for each gender PC - although in real life Alistair may well talk to a man/woman quite differently. (I'm sure he did have different dialogue sometimes, and his romance did significantly build on the Alistair bromancy friend experience so that's good.)

Also, the fact that the romance options were a little too neat, I found somewhat disappointing initially. 3 each, 2 bi. But, again, this was an achievable way to make sure that there was lots of choice for the player. I still haven't tried 3 of the romances. Go replayability!

I'd like to see same sex romances as well as heterosexual ones being less about the player, actually, and more about the character. Despite perhaps being a little neat (IMO), DAO did do this. Zevran seemed authentically bi to me, based on what he said about his experiences. Leliana also seemed authentically bi in a different way. Would have been nice to also have an authentically gay character but (maybe its just me) I didn't really get the feeling that Fereldens in general would be too comfortable being openly gay. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I can't think of any gay Fereldens off the top of my head.

Having said that, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to role play Hawke as straight/gay/bi/surprise me.

[Noviere]

Don't worry David -- not all of us think you're bastards.

Bioware is one of the most socially conscience game developers out there, and I've definitely appreciated it when you have included the option for same-sex romances. If they can't be included in every game, I won't hold it against you personally.

In short, thank you for being inclusive when it's possible!

Modifié par Noviere, 16 juillet 2010 - 09:34 .

[Collider]

I may be mistaken, but I think one (or more) of the writers before Dragon Age was released said that the general opinion of Fereldans was that homosexuality is odd, strange, or out of the ordinary (but only in the way that someone with dyed green hair today would be considered odd). But on the whole, they don't really care as long as everyone including heterosexuals keep their sex lives reasonably private.

Modifié par Collider, 16 juillet 2010 - 09:30 .

[Tora Panthera]

From - http://dragonage.wik...ty_and_Marriage

"The majority of Fereldans consider same-sex relations odd, but not immoral, while Orlesians consider it a quirk of character. Among the Antivan Crows, however, there seems to be a winking tolerance for, if not an encouragement of, sexual relations with multiple partners of either sex."

[Firky]

Thanks for the clarification. There you go. Maybe that's why the Orlesian and Antivan companions were bi but Alistair wasn't, right?