776 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalfear]

Collider wrote...

I may be mistaken, but I think one (or more) of the writers before Dragon Age was released said that the general opinion of Fereldans was that homosexuality is odd, strange, or out of the ordinary (but only in the way that someone with dyed green hair today would be considered odd). But on the whole, they don't really care as long as everyone including heterosexuals keep their sex lives reasonably private.

ahhhh finally the common sense post

[Tirigon]

David Gaider wrote...


There's a fallacy at work among people who come to these forums that romances, once they're included in a game, become a right-- that if we have romances they must be allocated "fairly" or it's disciminatory. But you don't have a right to romances in a game-- any more than you have a right to free worship or to be an elf.

But you should have a right to be an elf. Elves have feelings too.

It's a difficult issue to discuss, because we don't look on it as an issue of fairness. It's content, like any other sort of content, and we'll only ever be able to include a limited amount of it so we have to make the best of it we can, and we're always going to try and be inclusive of as many of our players' desires are we can.

I do not really get your point. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling you are warning us that there won´t be gay romances. However, if you look at it like that, then where´s the problem? Gay romances are content that fulfills many player´s desire (and not only homosexual one´s), so why can´t you simply make clear asap that it will be included?

Modifié par Tirigon, 16 juillet 2010 - 09:45 .

[Tora Panthera]

Firky wrote...

Thanks for the clarification. There you go. Maybe that's why the Orlesian and Antivan companions were bi but Alistair wasn't, right?

That's a good theory.

I also have a theory - based on the DA:O companions ( awakening not included )
- All warrior companions are heterosexual males.  (Alistair (duh), Oghren (female lovers), Sten ("flirting" with Morrigan), Loghain (female lovers))
- All mage companions are heterosexual females. (Morrigan (duh), Wynne (has a son))
- all rogues companions are bisexuals. (Zevran and Lelianna (both duh)
- Shale and dog doesn't count cause they're special classes.

[Firky]

Hmm. If you lay it out like that, the heterosexual male warrior thing perhaps does look a little like stereotyping the blokey bloke. (Which was perhaps the OPs initial concern about Hawke?) But who knows what qunari men get up to? And I reckon the male PC might be in with a chance with Oghren after lots of drinks. (Maybe.)

Shale was definitely getting deep and meaningful with Sten too, I'm sure of it! Who says golems can't fall in love?

EDIT: And again, it is kind of neat when you lay it out like that but neat is achievable. BG II SOA had great romances. And they were neat. For the male PC romance choices were good/neutral/evil (in a nutshell). For the female PC it was Anomen who you could make good or evil to suit yourself. It's neat to give the player lots of choice but the clever thing is that the romancable characters always seem true to themselves. 

EDIT AGAIN: AND in BGII Viconia wouldn't romance an elf, from memory - which makes perfect sense. And I don't think dwarves or gnomes got any action at all! This might be a little rascist/not inclusive or something but its also cool to have really authentic characters.

Modifié par Firky, 16 juillet 2010 - 10:11 .

[Bugzehat]

Tirigon wrote...

I do not really get your point. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling you are warning us that there won´t be gay romances. However, if you look at it like that, then where´s the problem? Gay romances are content that fulfills many player´s desire (and not only homosexual one´s), so why can´t you simply make clear asap that it will be included?

I don't know, it could just be pre-emptive defense because it's likely people will respond badly whatever the romance options eventually turn out to be (see: Zevran being "the wrong kind of gay"). Even if there are both gay and straight romances, they'll probably never be as many and varied as the developers would like, and it's good to have some insight into why that is. So I'm still keeping my fingers crossed, for now.

[Collider]

If I may expand on that...

Warrior companions = Heterosexual.
Other classes = May not be heterosexual (Silk Fox, Sky, Juhani, Liara, Leliana, Zevran) Notice the prevalence of rogues here.

Also, companions shown on the cover art of the game will never be bisexual or gay.

In addition, The Male & Female Lead characters (such as Carth, Bastila, Alistair, Morrigan, etc) are also less likely to be bisexual or gay.

Modifié par Collider, 16 juillet 2010 - 10:15 .

[Collider]

Bugzehat wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

I do not really get your point. I could be wrong, but I get the feeling you are warning us that there won´t be gay romances. However, if you look at it like that, then where´s the problem? Gay romances are content that fulfills many player´s desire (and not only homosexual one´s), so why can´t you simply make clear asap that it will be included?

I don't know, it could just be pre-emptive defense because it's likely people will respond badly whatever the romance options eventually turn out to be (see: Zevran being "the wrong kind of gay"). Even if there are both gay and straight romances, they'll probably never be as many and varied as the developers would like, and it's good to have some insight into why that is. So I'm still keeping my fingers crossed, for now.

On that note, I hope (if there is anyone) that the M/M option in DA2 is not a roguish & flamboyant fellow again. I'm not saying (and didn't say) that Zevran was "too gay" or the "wrong kind of gay" at all, I'd personally just like someone a bit more masculine and less sexually charged, in contrast to Zev.

[Bugzehat]

Collider wrote...

On that note, I hope (if there is anyone) that the M/M option in DA2 is not a roguish & flamboyant fellow again. I'm not saying (and didn't say) that Zevran was "too gay" or the "wrong kind of gay" at all, I'd personally just like someone a bit more masculine and less sexually charged, in contrast to Zev.

Agreed. I liked Zevran, but it would be a shame if future gay/bi characters in the franchise ended up being essentially the same character. Diversity is good!

[Tora Panthera]

I support manly gay man. 

[GreedIsNoException]

Call me a "n00b" to Bioware but personally I've never played their old franchises like Baldur's Gate. I've played ME, KOTOR, DA:O. That being said I have not found an LI option for male on male in a game as of yet. I am straight but I admit that it's not fair to include lesbian but not a guy on guy. Sure I might never use it or just to see how it was made out. Obviously there's going to be lesbian unless EA beat them down a lot more than we thought.

[Collider]

Interestingly, I see the inclination that the media has towards effeminate homosexual or bisexual male characters not as lessening homophobia, but perhaps increasing it.

A good way for homosexuality to get less reviled in society would be to portray homosexuals and bisexuals as "just one of the guys." No limp wrist, girlish demeanor, or lisp - but a masculine dude who for whatever reason likes other guys (and isn't parading it for god's sake)

Of course, I'm not saying they SHOULD change how they've been portraying the LGBT community at all - however they want to depict their characters were gay or straight or anything in between is up to them and should be up to them.

Nor am I saying that everyone should try to make a political statement. But I find that a lot of homophobia seemed to stem from the notion that LGB's are "different" from them (like having their own "gay" culture etc) and not just that they like the same sex.

Modifié par Collider, 16 juillet 2010 - 10:46 .

[Tirigon]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Yeah, I'm kinda sick of this myself. EVERY movie, EVERY series that has a homosexual as a supporting character, it has to be that typical girly type with a stupid teen-like mannerism that has become so stereotypical and annoying that it made me feel like I wanna slap the first bastard who talks like that.

What the hell is this? Does ****** equal woman? Have I slept for eight or nine years, and every single homosexual had a sex change?

Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it, I'm not gay, but I can't help but notice this dumb attempt at "lessening" homophobia through the use of "likable" or "cute" stereotypes.

And how exactly is Zevran "girly"? I found him quite manly actually. Strong, muscular, agile, cunning.....

[Collider]

Tirigon wrote...

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Yeah, I'm kinda sick of this myself. EVERY movie, EVERY series that has a homosexual as a supporting character, it has to be that typical girly type with a stupid teen-like mannerism that has become so stereotypical and annoying that it made me feel like I wanna slap the first bastard who talks like that.

What the hell is this? Does ****** equal woman? Have I slept for eight or nine years, and every single homosexual had a sex change?

Maybe I'm not supposed to understand it, I'm not gay, but I can't help but notice this dumb attempt at "lessening" homophobia through the use of "likable" or "cute" stereotypes.

And how exactly is Zevran "girly"? I found him quite manly actually. Strong, muscular, agile, cunning.....

Hair, elf, flamboyant, roguish, likes things that are "beautiful"... it's hard to list all of the traits.

But I would say that Sten was more masculine than Zevran for sure, in my opinion. Of course, most of what constitutes as "masculine" or "feminine" is up to the individual and varies from society and society.

Modifié par Collider, 16 juillet 2010 - 10:50 .

[Grommash94]

Personally, most homosexual guys I know are just normal guys. There really shouldn't be any personality difference in the game.

[GreedIsNoException]

Grommash94 wrote...

Personally, most homosexual guys I know are just normal guys. There really shouldn't be any personality difference in the game.

Me too so. A-greed. Zing.
But yeah I don't see why they should just ask you from the beggining to make you a stereotypical guy just to make your LIs like in the past noticeable (that they like you/hitting on you). Then make the move if you want.  Because I might make a character homosexual if it was a good LI.

Modifié par GreedIsNoException, 16 juillet 2010 - 11:00 .

[Chuvvy]

Grommash94 wrote...

Personally, most homosexual guys I know are just normal guys. There really shouldn't be any personality difference in the game.

This.

[ShadowNemisi]

David Gaider wrote...

Oh, I get it. Trust me. Straight privilege can be just as frustrating as white privilege-- it's very easy for someone to say that it's not an issue when they're not on the receiving end of discrimination. And it's very frustrating to be thoughtlessly exluded when, all things being equal, you could be included. All I was suggesting is that, from a game development standpoint, things aren't generally equal. It's very easy for me to include gay characters in a book I write, for instance, because words are relatively cheap-- it's the same reason I can throw in horses and cloaks and not blink twice. It would be nice, too, if wearing the Developer Hat didn't interfere with the Gaming Enthusiast Hat or any one of the other hats I wear... but a developer simply doesn't have that luxury.

That doesn't mean, of course, that we couldn't always do better. Just because we're a game doesn't mean we're devoid of social responsibility-- but there's only so much we can do. As I've said many times before, games aren't really a good platform for social change. Discussion doesn't hurt, however-- unlike what the OP insinuated, my experience with fellow developers is that we're a pretty educated, open-minded bunch. We're not out to get you (beyond clubbing you over the head and taking your money, that is-- but hey, it's a capitalist world).

Personally, I understand what you've been trying to say and accept the reality of what you have to work with as a developer.  However, I always thought a good compromise would be allowing the player (through the character) to state their preference.  There doesn't have to be a full-blown, same-sex romance but it still allows the player to define a part of the character.

I mean just because the character has same-sex inclinations it doesn't follow that her/his companions do as well.  They are their own people right?

It wouldn't even have to be something prolific either, I'd settle for being able to shot down the "star" romances (Alistair/Morrigan, Jacob/Miranda) by revealing the characters orientation.

I don't know, it's just something I'd appreciate without expecting elaborate romance plots laid at my feet.

[Bugzehat]

Collider wrote...

Interestingly, I see the inclination that the media has towards effeminate homosexual or bisexual male characters not as lessening homophobia, but perhaps increasing it.

A good way for homosexuality to get less reviled in society would be to portray homosexuals and bisexuals as "just one of the guys." No limp wrist, girlish demeanor, or lisp - but a masculine dude who for whatever reason likes other guys (and isn't parading it for god's sake)

Of course, I'm not saying they SHOULD change how they've been portraying the LGBT community at all - however they want to depict their characters were gay or straight or anything in between is up to them and should be up to them.

Nor am I saying that everyone should try to make a political statement. But I find that a lot of homophobia seemed to stem from the notion that LGB's are "different" from them (like having their own "gay" culture etc) and not just that they like the same sex.

Believe it or not, there's a persistent school of thought that says that any media depiction of a gay man as anything less than completely flamboyant and over-sexualised is simply trying to erase gay people from existence by normalising them and making them 'straight acting'. I can see the complaints now, if DA2 contains a straightforwardly masculine gay character: "Why are you trying to hide his sexuality, BioWare? Why are you so homophobic? Bring back Zevran!"

That's why I support diversity, where possible -- it neatly sidesteps the "gay men should be portrayed as normal/masculine/stereotypically gay" argument while actually having a better shot at representing how gay men, you know, actually are in real life.

edit: the above ^^^ is a good idea.

Modifié par Bugzehat, 16 juillet 2010 - 11:06 .

[Andraste_Reborn]

You know, something I want to see continue even if there aren't same-sex love interests in DA2 (for whatever reason) is the inclusion of LGBT characters who have nothing to do with the Warden's sex life at all. Something I really appreciated about Origins was that there were several who were there to recover the Anvil of the Void or sell you armor, not to sleep with your character. I see no reason there won't be more in DA2.



And of course getting back to the Warden's sex life, there were also the two bi NPCs from the Human Noble origin, and Random Guard #347 in Fort Drakon, who can be seduced by a prisoner of either gender. While only having heterosexual love interests as companions would not be my preference, it's still possible that moments like those will be included in the sequel even if there aren't ongoing same-sex romances.



All of which to say, I greatly appreciated the presence of not only Leliana and Zevran by of Branka and Marjolaine and Wade. I look forward to seeing LGBT characters in the sequel, regardless of whether my characters can have sex with them or not.

[Bobad]

Well if you can have a Homosexual relationship in ME2, why not in DA2.



I'm thinking 'I know you feel this' and 'this hurts you!'

[Firky]

Hey, that was a comprehensive list Andrastee. I knew there were lots of non-exclusively-hetero moments in the game but I couldn't remember them.

[Noviere]

Andrastee wrote...

You know, something I want to see continue even if there aren't same-sex love interests in DA2 (for whatever reason) is the inclusion of LGBT characters who have nothing to do with the Warden's sex life at all. Something I really appreciated about Origins was that there were several who were there to recover the Anvil of the Void or sell you armor, not to sleep with your character. I see no reason there won't be more in DA2.

And of course getting back to the Warden's sex life, there were also the two bi NPCs from the Human Noble origin, and Random Guard #347 in Fort Drakon, who can be seduced by a prisoner of either gender. While only having heterosexual love interests as companions would not be my preference, it's still possible that moments like those will be included in the sequel even if there aren't ongoing same-sex romances.

All of which to say, I greatly appreciated the presence of not only Leliana and Zevran by of Branka and Marjolaine and Wade. I look forward to seeing LGBT characters in the sequel, regardless of whether my characters can have sex with them or not.

That's a really good point, and something I definitely appreciated as well.

[Tirigon]

JoePinasi1989 wrote...

Where EXACTLY did I mention Zevran? Where EXACTLY did I even mention Dragon Age?

You responded to a post that did. Maybe you are one o the few not looking at Zev as unmanly, but many do, as Collider´s answer to my question shows.

Modifié par Tirigon, 16 juillet 2010 - 11:19 .