100 réponses à ce sujet

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ah, that makes sense, Angji. Thanks for clearing it up.

[CroGamer002]

The Big Nothing wrote...

And Jesus, did you skip through every bit of dialogue?
Tali's entire loyalty mission is about quarian hostility with the geth, and the potential for full-scale war between the two.
At the conclusion of Tali's trial, you can go around asking the quarians in the makeshift courtroom to go/not go to war.

You can be like( I don't give a sh*t about you guy go into war or peace with Geth.
You know, not affect their decision.

[Bogsnot1]

Shandepared wrote...

Cheese Elemental wrote...
We don't know **** about the Reapers, and the Collector base might (MIGHT) be just that - a Collector base, not a Reaper base.

I could have sworn they were building a REAPER in that base...

DUrrr.

I could purchase the parts and make a Harley in my shed, but that doesnt make my shed a Harley factory does it?
Take a good long look at the corresponding tech. The Reapers, Mass Relays, and the Citadel vs Collector ship and base. Collector tech utilises the mass of asteroids to form the bulk of the vessel, whereas Reaper tech is entirely fabricated.

[didymos1120]

Shandepared wrote...
I can't even get you lemmings to agree that the Collector base was building a Reaper then I'm not going to be able to convince you of anything.

Good day.

You know, I just read the whole topic, and no one but no one has claimed they weren't building a reaper in there. I happen to agree with you that there'd be plenty of data on the reapers in the base, even if they didn't leave detailed schematics or whatever laying about, but your excuse for bailing on the discussion is just sad and weak.  Soooooo not renegade, man.

[The Unfallen]

Yeah I've always wondered where the **** EDI gets her intel that the thing in the Collector Base was a Reaper. What if it wasn't?

[Intax]

It doesn't really matter if you're paragon or renegade for the upcoming fight with the reapers. Most of these possible allies aren't going to be strong enough to really do anything against them (reapers).



You've got the Krogan that aren't really much of a threat to anyone. Even if you help Wrex and he manages to unite all the Krogan before the reapers arrive they've got no real tech or fleet of their own. The reapers might have minor issues taking Tutchanka but that's about all.



The Quarians number, what, 17 million? The migrant fleet consists of mostly aging century old scavenged space craft. By Tali's own admission the tech on the Normandy is vastly superior to anything the Quarians have. The best thing they can do for themselves is hide out and hope the reapers lose so they avoid extinction.



The Rachni are the only real iffy one. On Noveria we find out they can reproduce very quickly, we are only talking a few years though. Will that be enough time to reproduce an army capable of being a real ally?



The Geth are the only ones with the potential to be a real ally in the upcoming fight. Paragon or Renegade choice don't really matter as there are good or bad possible outcomes for either Heretic Station choice. The real issue with the Geth (in my opinion) is that they aspire to be almost identical to the reapers. Legion keeps talking about having no hostility towards organics, that can change very easily, however. I'd just as soon wipe them all out.



The council has proved repeatedly they aren't interested in acknowledging the reaper threat. I doubt they'll even be prepared. You can assume the Turian fleet, Alliance fleet, Asari commandos and the Salarian STG are under the command of the council and will be complacent as well.



The only true ally you have will be Cerberus. They will probably be behind you even if you destroyed the Collector base and told TIM to eat ****.

[IanPolaris]

Ok here's my take:

Possible Allies:

Rachni if you save the queen:  Not only do the Rachni reproduce quickly, but the queen has all the ancient Rachni knowledge as well, and they now are perfectly well aware of how vunerable they are to Reaper Indoctrination.  This has the potential to be a huge ally against the Reapers assuming you can get your other allies to trust them, and really only paragon Sheps are likely to have this ally.

Krogan if you don't kill Wrex:  This option is far likelier for Paragon Sheps but you can justify this as a Renegade Shep too.  By themselves, the Krogan don't have the numbers of infrastructure to be anything more than minor allies.  However, if you save the Geneophage cure (or part of it) in Mordin's Loyalty mission, it might be possible to clone a Krogan army like Saren did in which case they are more important (but having both occure is almost certainly going to be restricted to Paragon Sheps in most cases).

Cereberus if you save the collector base:  I think this is a big one.  Yes, even in the case of Paragon Sheps that destroy the base, I think evenually you may get some very minor Cerberus aid (assuming they are important any more....they've had some setbacks recently), but TIM believes that he is the messianic savior of humanity and if it's not good for him and Cereberus, it's not good for humanity which means we will (at least initially in ME3) want a Paragon Shep's head on his mantlepiece after destroying the base.  If you DON'T destroy the base, I think TIM and Cereberus become the most technilogically advanced group in the galaxy (save the Reapers) and will use that technolgy so that a Renegade Shep can win with just their help (and the complacent Alliance) and no one else.  I foresee this route leading to an Autocratic Human Empire (Shepard I, Reaperbane has a nice ring to it).

Geth if you end the game with Legion Loyal to you and you DON'T tell the Quarians to go to war with them:  This is another potential huge ally.  While hypothetically available to both Renegade and Paragon Sheps equally (in many ways the Geth approve of Renegade Decisions), I DON"T think they will play nice with Cereberus so I think a Renegade Shep may well be forced to choose between the Geth and Cerberus.

Quarians if you don't get Tali Exiled and Get her loyalty:  Like the Geth, the Quarians are available nearly equally for Renegade or Paragon Sheps.   However, for Renegade Sheps, you won't be able to get both the Geth and Quarians unless you side with Admiral Xen and have the Quarians forcibly enslave all Geth (I think this will be an ME3 renegade ally option).  In any event, the Quarians won't fight with Cereberus or vice versa.  Even a Renegade Shep will have to choose.

Salarian STG if you kept Capt Kirrahe alive AND Mordin was Loyal:  It's clear that Capt Kirrahe and Prof Solus are extremely high ranking and influencial people within the Salarian Govt and especially the Salarian STG.  It's also clear that the Salarians have been aware and quiety taking action against the Reaper threat for a long time but (typical for Salarians) don't like to advertise this fact to others.  Regardless of the council, the SSTG might be available to both Paragon or Renegade Sheps as a minor ally.

Blue Suns Mercenaries if Zaeed killed Vido:  I can easily see especially for a Renegade Shep that Zaeed respects, having Zaeed "finish his vendetta" and take over the Blue Suns and then "hire them out" in the Terminus Systems for Shepard.  They'd also be a relatively minor ally but might be an important personelle/logistic support in light that the Renegade Shep won't have too many other options.  This option is effectively for Renegade Sheps only.

Aasari Commandos/Justicars if Samara Loyal and Pledged her aid:  This is ONLY an option for Paragon Sheps and only Paragon Sheps that cultivated a friendshipo with Samara.  Remember that Samara is not only a Justicar in her own right but an Aasari Matriarch as well, and (as seen in ME1 with Benezia) when Matriachs speech, the Aasari listen.  Even if the Council dithers, I expect at least minor support from the Aasari via Samara in this case.

Turian Military if Garrus loyal and did NOT kill Sidonis:  This one is sketchier than the others, but I get the impression that Garrus' father was really, really important within C-Sec and that both he and Garrus had connections within the Turian Military (Garrus had the plans for TOP SECRET Thanix cannon after all, crown jewel of the Turian Navy).  Again unless the Council acts, I think that this support will be minor at best but.....

Council (Paragon Council Only) if Base Destroyed, Relationship to Ceberus Severed, and Spectre Status retained:  In ME2, the council gives you your spectre status back if you restrict your activities to the Terminus systems.  If you come back after very openly defying the Illusive Man AND saving the galaxy from the Collector Threat with Proof that the Reapers are coming (and at the end of ME2 you have that proof), then the Council even if they hate you has almost no choice but to praise you and back your play.  Indeed I see the Turian Councillor doing that first and loudest so no one will remember what an arse he was before (with Udina quickly following suit).  Otherwise the Coucil is likely to do nothing until too late.  If you get the council, you will have the full naval support of the Turians and Aasari to go with the Alliance, but won't have the tech edge you would have had with Cereberus.

Alliance:  I think you'll automatically get alliance support (it's only a question of when).  Either you'll get it when you get council support, or Cererbus will quietly take over key personelle within the alliance, and Cereberus will give it to you that way.  See council above except if Cerberus, you'll have far fewer numbers.

I am not saying this are absolute facts, just my take on possible alliances.  I am sure I am forgetting stuff.

-Polaris

[CaptainZaysh]

I think this whole "building an alliance" idea is pretty lame. All the factions discussed in this thread should be throwing all their forces at the Reaper fleet out of desperation and slack jawed terror at the invading space monsters, not because Shepard did them a favour. If ME3 isn't apocalyptic in scale Bioware will have missed a huge opportunity.

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

I think this whole "building an alliance" idea is pretty lame. All the factions discussed in this thread should be throwing all their forces at the Reaper fleet out of desperation and slack jawed terror at the invading space monsters, not because Shepard did them a favour. If ME3 isn't apocalyptic in scale Bioware will have missed a huge opportunity.

Disagree.  Even under extreme circumstances, peoples and nations are not as eager to unite against the common threat as you might think.  WWII is a classic example of this.  Everyone on the allied side could agree that Hitler was a threat.  Did that mean the Western Allies and CCCP trusted each other or helped each other any mroe than the minumum they had to?

Not hardly.

-Polaris

[Intax]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ok here's my take:

Possible Allies:

Rachni if you save the queen:  Not only do the Rachni reproduce quickly, but the queen has all the ancient Rachni knowledge as well, and they now are perfectly well aware of how vunerable they are to Reaper Indoctrination.  This has the potential to be a huge ally against the Reapers assuming you can get your other allies to trust them, and really only paragon Sheps are likely to have this ally.

Krogan if you don't kill Wrex:  This option is far likelier for Paragon Sheps but you can justify this as a Renegade Shep too.  By themselves, the Krogan don't have the numbers of infrastructure to be anything more than minor allies.  However, if you save the Geneophage cure (or part of it) in Mordin's Loyalty mission, it might be possible to clone a Krogan army like Saren did in which case they are more important (but having both occure is almost certainly going to be restricted to Paragon Sheps in most cases).

Cereberus if you save the collector base:  I think this is a big one.  Yes, even in the case of Paragon Sheps that destroy the base, I think evenually you may get some very minor Cerberus aid (assuming they are important any more....they've had some setbacks recently), but TIM believes that he is the messianic savior of humanity and if it's not good for him and Cereberus, it's not good for humanity which means we will (at least initially in ME3) want a Paragon Shep's head on his mantlepiece after destroying the base.  If you DON'T destroy the base, I think TIM and Cereberus become the most technilogically advanced group in the galaxy (save the Reapers) and will use that technolgy so that a Renegade Shep can win with just their help (and the complacent Alliance) and no one else.  I foresee this route leading to an Autocratic Human Empire (Shepard I, Reaperbane has a nice ring to it).

Geth if you end the game with Legion Loyal to you and you DON'T tell the Quarians to go to war with them:  This is another potential huge ally.  While hypothetically available to both Renegade and Paragon Sheps equally (in many ways the Geth approve of Renegade Decisions), I DON"T think they will play nice with Cereberus so I think a Renegade Shep may well be forced to choose between the Geth and Cerberus.

Quarians if you don't get Tali Exiled and Get her loyalty:  Like the Geth, the Quarians are available nearly equally for Renegade or Paragon Sheps.   However, for Renegade Sheps, you won't be able to get both the Geth and Quarians unless you side with Admiral Xen and have the Quarians forcibly enslave all Geth (I think this will be an ME3 renegade ally option).  In any event, the Quarians won't fight with Cereberus or vice versa.  Even a Renegade Shep will have to choose.

Salarian STG if you kept Capt Kirrahe alive AND Mordin was Loyal:  It's clear that Capt Kirrahe and Prof Solus are extremely high ranking and influencial people within the Salarian Govt and especially the Salarian STG.  It's also clear that the Salarians have been aware and quiety taking action against the Reaper threat for a long time but (typical for Salarians) don't like to advertise this fact to others.  Regardless of the council, the SSTG might be available to both Paragon or Renegade Sheps as a minor ally.

Blue Suns Mercenaries if Zaeed killed Vido:  I can easily see especially for a Renegade Shep that Zaeed respects, having Zaeed "finish his vendetta" and take over the Blue Suns and then "hire them out" in the Terminus Systems for Shepard.  They'd also be a relatively minor ally but might be an important personelle/logistic support in light that the Renegade Shep won't have too many other options.  This option is effectively for Renegade Sheps only.

Aasari Commandos/Justicars if Samara Loyal and Pledged her aid:  This is ONLY an option for Paragon Sheps and only Paragon Sheps that cultivated a friendshipo with Samara.  Remember that Samara is not only a Justicar in her own right but an Aasari Matriarch as well, and (as seen in ME1 with Benezia) when Matriachs speech, the Aasari listen.  Even if the Council dithers, I expect at least minor support from the Aasari via Samara in this case.

Turian Military if Garrus loyal and did NOT kill Sidonis:  This one is sketchier than the others, but I get the impression that Garrus' father was really, really important within C-Sec and that both he and Garrus had connections within the Turian Military (Garrus had the plans for TOP SECRET Thanix cannon after all, crown jewel of the Turian Navy).  Again unless the Council acts, I think that this support will be minor at best but.....

Council (Paragon Council Only) if Base Destroyed, Relationship to Ceberus Severed, and Spectre Status retained:  In ME2, the council gives you your spectre status back if you restrict your activities to the Terminus systems.  If you come back after very openly defying the Illusive Man AND saving the galaxy from the Collector Threat with Proof that the Reapers are coming (and at the end of ME2 you have that proof), then the Council even if they hate you has almost no choice but to praise you and back your play.  Indeed I see the Turian Councillor doing that first and loudest so no one will remember what an arse he was before (with Udina quickly following suit).  Otherwise the Coucil is likely to do nothing until too late.  If you get the council, you will have the full naval support of the Turians and Aasari to go with the Alliance, but won't have the tech edge you would have had with Cereberus.

Alliance:  I think you'll automatically get alliance support (it's only a question of when).  Either you'll get it when you get council support, or Cererbus will quietly take over key personelle within the alliance, and Cereberus will give it to you that way.  See council above except if Cerberus, you'll have far fewer numbers.

I am not saying this are absolute facts, just my take on possible alliances.  I am sure I am forgetting stuff.

-Polaris

As far as the Rachni go, yes, their knowledge of indoctrination could be very useful. I am still not convinced several years of breeding is enough to pose any real threat to the reapers. If it was, even a non-genophage population explosion of Krogan wouldn't have been able to stop them. I tend to lean towards saving the Rachni queen, even as Renegade. I believe the queen is truthful with her assertion that the Rachni wars were dictated by indoctrination.

Krogan cloning is doable with or without Wrex or Mordin's help. Warlord Okeer and Grunt is proof of that. There are a lot of decisions that lead me to believe we will get 'aftermath' scenarios based of certain decisions we make. I hope thats the case anyway. Mordin's loyalty mission decisions is one of the big ones for me. I've not once been able to advocate him curing the Krogan.

No disagreement with Cerberus.

As far as the Geth are concerned Paragon and Renegade really mean nothing with regards to the Heretic station. Either choice is perfectly acceptable for Legion. A Quarian/Geth war could be a distraction but not much beyond that. They (the Geth) would wipe the floor with the Quarians (exeptions).

I hadn't really considered the Quarians re-gaining control over the Geth, that could be huge. A better option than wiping them out, since I do think that Geth will eventually become what the reapers are now.

Agreed with Salarian STG. Being that the Salarian STG is a covert intelligence agency I would expect them to be not-so-far behind a saved Collector base Cerberus level of support. Their problem will be with timing, they answer to a weak council.

Blue Suns, really?

As far as the Asari Commandos/Justicars go, a huge red flag pops up if you have ever talked to the bartender on Illium (an Asari Matriarch and ignored). Asari seem to be the least likely to really aid, of those that actually could. They're too busy keeping the status quo.

I hope you're right about the Turian Military and Garrus. I never saw the connection you're drawing but if they could help, a Turain military free of council control would be the bulk Shep's reaper defense.

As I said in my last post, the council doesn't seem to take Shep seriously. It doesnt really matter what kind of proof he/she has. Even a dead reaper on thier doorstep is inconclusive. I know its kind of silly but really, just stick that pic of the monkey with his hands over his eyes for our Mass Effect universe council and everyone wins.

Alliance is far too concerned with getting in good the council. Like other council species they do as they're told. Will you get their support, sure, but you'll get the support of the entire galaxy. As you said, it will come down to timing. Timing that comes too late.

[IanPolaris]

Intax wrote...
As far as the Rachni go, yes, their knowledge of indoctrination could be very useful. I am still not convinced several years of breeding is enough to pose any real threat to the reapers. If it was, even a non-genophage population explosion of Krogan wouldn't have been able to stop them. I tend to lean towards saving the Rachni queen, even as Renegade. I believe the queen is truthful with her assertion that the Rachni wars were dictated by indoctrination.

No real disagreement about the Rachni.  I personally think that they will be a big ace-in-the-hole for the Shep that saves the Queen (likely a Paragon Shep).

Krogan cloning is doable with or without Wrex or Mordin's help. Warlord Okeer and Grunt is proof of that. There are a lot of decisions that lead me to believe we will get 'aftermath' scenarios based of certain decisions we make. I hope thats the case anyway. Mordin's loyalty mission decisions is one of the big ones for me. I've not once been able to advocate him curing the Krogan.

Actually not really.  Okeer needed lots of Collector help and tech, and even then his tank bred Krogan were for the most part flawed.  He had only one, non-repeatable sucess (Grunt).  That and Wrex's line in ME1 ("How is that possible") when Kirrahe talks about Saren cloning a Krogan army tells me the Genophage makes it very difficult for Krogan to live past what we would call the first trimester of development.

As far as the Geth are concerned Paragon and Renegade really mean nothing with regards to the Heretic station. Either choice is perfectly acceptable for Legion. A Quarian/Geth war could be a distraction but not much beyond that. They (the Geth) would wipe the floor with the Quarians (exeptions).

I hadn't really considered the Quarians re-gaining control over the Geth, that could be huge. A better option than wiping them out, since I do think that Geth will eventually become what the reapers are now.

Agreed that the choice you make on Heretic Station won't affect the Geth attitude towards you, but it will affect the number of Geth.  Also if you reprogramed the Heretics, the Geth will know more about the Reapers than if you don't.  I also see the Geth wiping the floor with the Quarians...unless the Quarians follow Xen and figure out how to reprogram the Geth back into slavery....and I wouldn't put it past the Quarians to figure it out.

Agreed with Salarian STG. Being that the Salarian STG is a covert intelligence agency I would expect them to be not-so-far behind a saved Collector base Cerberus level of support. Their problem will be with timing, they answer to a weak council.

Acually the SSTG answers to the Salarian Govt and then only vaguely (like our modern highly secret black ops organizations).  The SSTG would be give a lot of lattitude especially if the Salarian Govt was in fact concerned about the reapers but didn't want to make it known publically.  The SSTG is designed to give this sort of covert support.

Blue Suns, really?

I don't think it's likely, but it's possible.  Depends on if Zaeed can retake the leadership of the Blue Suns.  This option would only be avaliable for Renegade Sheps (who let Zaeed kill Vido).

As far as the Asari Commandos/Justicars go, a huge red flag pops up if you have ever talked to the bartender on Illium (an Asari Matriarch and ignored). Asari seem to be the least likely to really aid, of those that actually could. They're too busy keeping the status quo.

I disagree.  The Aasari as a whole, sure,. but the Aasari that become Aasari Commandos and Justicars are made of completely different cloth, and remember that Samara is a JUSTICAR as well as a Matriarch.  That gives her instant pull that the bartender you mention does not have.  Also Liari will figure prominantly in ME3 and she has high connections (via her mother) to the Aasari.  Unless the council supports you, I don't expect full cooperation from the Aarasi, but the Aasari seem very loosely organized, and I easily see Samara having the political pull to get you the services and loyalty of a couple of platoons of Aasari Commandos at the very least.

I hope you're right about the Turian Military and Garrus. I never saw the connection you're drawing but if they could help, a Turain military free of council control would be the bulk Shep's reaper defense.

It's a bit of a reach I admit, but there is no way the Turians are as blind to the Reaper menance as the Turian councillor would have you believe.  The very existance of the Thanix Cannon emphatically says otherwise, and Garrus had the plans for it......which tells me his connections with the Turian Military are a lot more advanced than he's generally let on.

As I said in my last post, the council doesn't seem to take Shep seriously. It doesnt really matter what kind of proof he/she has. Even a dead reaper on thier doorstep is inconclusive. I know its kind of silly but really, just stick that pic of the monkey with his hands over his eyes for our Mass Effect universe council and everyone wins.

Again, I read them completely differently.  At least three of the four races (Humans, Turians, and Salarians) are perfectly well aware of the Reaper threat, but Adm Anderson says it best when he says, "It's scarey stuff; it's no wonder they don't want to admit it."  The FACT remains, however, that with the Paragon Council, they could have stripped Shepard of his spectre status then and there for working with Cerberus and it's clear the Aasari Councilor wants to.  The others (prodded by Anderson but nevertheless of their own volition) vote her down and restore Shepard to full status with a clean bill of health if he "investigates" the Collector threat in the Terminus systems.  Even Udina goes along with that (if a councilor).

Now, consider...Shepard comes back.  Has openly broken ties with Cerberus in about the most heavy handed way possible, defeats the Collector threat doing so in a way (through the Omega-4 rely) that was believed to be IMPOSSIBLE, and has proof positive the reapers are coming.

It would be politically impossible for the council to at least not treat Shepard as a hero and at least give what he says lip service.  The Council is first and formost made of politicians, and politicans can "change their minds" on a dime if the polls change.

In short, I see the Council in ME3 as Shepard's primary backer (along with the alliance) if you destroy the base and have gone Paragon.

Alliance is far too concerned with getting in good the council. Like other council species they do as they're told. Will you get their support, sure, but you'll get the support of the entire galaxy. As you said, it will come down to timing. Timing that comes too late.

I disagree.  Either Cerberus will de-facto take over the alliance (if they have the base) or the Alliance will back Shepard as part of the council.  Either way, I think the Alliance will be behind Shepard in ME3.

-Polaris

[CaptainZaysh]

IanPolaris wrote...

Disagree.  Even under extreme circumstances, peoples and nations are not as eager to unite against the common threat as you might think.  WWII is a classic example of this.  Everyone on the allied side could agree that Hitler was a threat.  Did that mean the Western Allies and CCCP trusted each other or helped each other any mroe than the minumum they had to?

Not hardly.

Um...that's exactly my point.  Two opposing ideologies united against a common threat because it was in their interest to do so, not because Churchill did a loyalty quest for Stalin.


That's what it should be like in ME3.  Batarian terrorists should be fighting and dying next to Alliance Marines because the Reapers are rolling indiscriminately over solar system after solar system, not because Shep spared Balak in Bring Down The Sky.

[smudboy]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Freeing the rachni queen ensures their loyalty to Shepard, as far as we know.

Not killing Wrex ensures that he unites the krogan clans.

The loyalty of turians, asari, etc, etc has not been a part of gameplay.

And Jesus, did you skip through every bit of dialogue?
Tali's entire loyalty mission is about quarian hostility with the geth, and the potential for full-scale war between the two.
At the conclusion of Tali's trial, you can go around asking the quarians in the makeshift courtroom to go/not go to war.

As for Wrex, he seems pretty involved in his own politics, which has nothing to do with anything.  I can see the writers wiping out the Krogan homeworld or some such scenario and have Shepard and co. have to deal with their preservation ontop of the Reaper threat.

As far as Tali's loyalty, that's just a suggestion.  I do believe when the time comes, having an innocent Tali being on Shepard's side would probably have some weight, but at this time, it's really no business of Shepards', nor do they have any influence on Quarian politics.

[KingDan97]

I'd say the Rachni, if you saved them are guaranteed. The Council, with the evidence from Retribution as well as Harbingers schematics from the end of ME2 are also guaranteed. Quarians may or may not side with you, it really all depends on how much your suggestion/Tali's experience affect the outcome of their politics. The Geth seem to want the demise of the old machines as much as we do. That's not really a question. Krogan have no ships, they can't really do much. As for very specific groups under Council jurisdiction(Justicars/STG/Turian Military/Alliance) I'd say they're guaranteed if the council are involved. In the end, I think any who aren't destroyed(possible Quarian/Geth war could wipe one or both out) will help fight the reapers.



As an aside, the Geth don't really seem to be involved or interested in the dealings of organics. If anything, I could see them being a positive force in the galaxy. They could help with first contact, reconnaissance among other things dealing with budding civilizations. If they decide to stay involved in galactic politics following the reapers.

[CaptainZaysh]

The geth seemed interested enough in the quarians to carry out a genocide the likes of which planet Earth has never seen. Let's hope they don't ever decide that removing us would be positive for the galaxy, eh? That might ruin the whole Happy Space Friends thing the Paragons are so confidently predicting.

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The geth seemed interested enough in the quarians to carry out a genocide the likes of which planet Earth has never seen. Let's hope they don't ever decide that removing us would be positive for the galaxy, eh? That might ruin the whole Happy Space Friends thing the Paragons are so confidently predicting.

I strongly disagree.  It's pretty clear that it was the Quarians that wanted to commit geneocide against the Geth and that's what started the war in the first place.  It's also clear the Quarians lost badly, and the Geth let the Quarians go and never went beyond the Veil.

From the narrative, if the Geth wanted to commit genocide against the Quarians, there wouldn't be any Quarians.

-Polaris

[CaptainZaysh]

IanPolaris wrote...

I strongly disagree.  It's pretty clear that it was the Quarians that wanted to commit geneocide against the Geth and that's what started the war in the first place.  It's also clear the Quarians lost badly, and the Geth let the Quarians go and never went beyond the Veil.

From the narrative, if the Geth wanted to commit genocide against the Quarians, there wouldn't be any Quarians.

That's ridiculous.  There are only 17 million quarians left, from a civilisation that spanned several solar systems.  Even if we assume the total quarian population only ever matched our current population on Earth today, the geth reduced the quarian population by 99.75%.

If you don't think that systematically reducing a population by 99.75% constitutes an attempt at genocide you are a lunatic.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 10 août 2010 - 06:04 .

[Kaiser Shepard]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I strongly disagree.  It's pretty clear that it was the Quarians that wanted to commit geneocide against the Geth and that's what started the war in the first place.  It's also clear the Quarians lost badly, and the Geth let the Quarians go and never went beyond the Veil.

From the narrative, if the Geth wanted to commit genocide against the Quarians, there wouldn't be any Quarians.

That's ridiculous.  There are only 17 million quarians left, from a civilisation that spanned several solar systems.  Even if we assume the total quarian population only ever matched our current population on Earth today, the geth reduced the quarian population by 99.75%.

If you don't think that systematically reducing a population by 99.75% constitutes an attempt at genocide you are a lunatic.

The geth simply did what they had to do in an act of self-preseverence, not just for the heck of it.

Also, would you argue that killing the rachni queen constitutes as genocide?

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 10 août 2010 - 06:36 .

[Intax]

Actually not really.  Okeer needed lots of Collector help and tech, and
even then his tank bred Krogan were for the most part flawed.  He had
only one, non-repeatable sucess (Grunt).  That and Wrex's line in ME1
("How is that possible") when Kirrahe talks about Saren cloning a Krogan
army tells me the Genophage makes it very difficult for Krogan to live
past what we would call the first trimester of development.

Saren hadn't cured the Genopage either. He was simply working on a cure, same as Maelon. Both Okeer and Saren were cloning Krogan within Genophage confines. Its doable.

Okeer's clones were only flawed in that they didn't produce that 'perfect Krogan' that Grunt supposedly is. We don't really know what that perfection is except that Grunt will ignore the Genophage. Okeer said it himself, there was nothing wrong with his cloned Krogan. Jedore was simply too weak to control them properly.

Agreed that the choice you make on Heretic Station won't affect the Geth
attitude towards you, but it will affect the number of Geth.  Also if
you reprogramed the Heretics, the Geth will know more about the Reapers
than if you don't.  I also see the Geth wiping the floor with the
Quarians...unless the Quarians follow Xen and figure out how to
reprogram the Geth back into slavery....and I wouldn't put it past the
Quarians to figure it out.

The amount of Heretic Geth are pretty miniscule compared to total amount of Geth. I vaguely remember 5% being that number, not sure where I got that figure from. Anyway, there are a couple ways of looking at the Heretic re-write; yours, where they have advanced knowledge of the Reapers and are immune to any further indoctrination or a shift in attitude of true Geth where they are more willing to align themselves with the Reapers after learning of the Heretic's experience with them. It can aslo go both ways if you destroy the Heretic station, they can be indoctrinated by the Reapers or be fully commited to fighting against them.

I disagree.  The Aasari as a whole, sure,. but the Aasari that become
Aasari Commandos and Justicars are made of completely different cloth,
and remember that Samara is a JUSTICAR as well as a Matriarch.  That
gives her instant pull that the bartender you mention does not have. 
Also Liari will figure prominantly in ME3 and she has high connections
(via her mother) to the Aasari.  Unless the council supports you, I
don't expect full cooperation from the Aarasi, but the Aasari seem very
loosely organized, and I easily see Samara having the political pull to
get you the services and loyalty of a couple of platoons of Aasari
Commandos at the very least.

I only mentioned the matriarch on Illium as an outline for the Asari attitude. I can easily go further and say the Asari have long since forsaken a military presence in favor of allowing the Turians to keep them safe. Even if Samara is able to convince the Asari to do a 180 how much will that actually help? The Asari are mosly dependant on the Turian Military for peacekeeping and the Commandos are tactical strike units. I'm sure the Commandos could be very useful if the war with the reapers comes down to corrupting their biology/tech at that point you'll have their support with or with out Samara's influence.

Re-reading what you said, I guess our opinions on the Asari don't really differ all that much.

It's a bit of a reach I admit, but there is no way the Turians
are as blind to the Reaper menance as the Turian councillor would have
you believe.  The very existance of the Thanix Cannon emphatically says
otherwise, and Garrus had the plans for it......which tells me his
connections with the Turian Military are a lot more advanced than he's
generally let on.

The Thanix Cannon really only goes to show that the Turian military is researching military technology, not a big shock. Garrus having those plans is a great sign that he still has strong connections to the Turian military, something we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.

Again, I read them completely differently.  At least three of the four
races (Humans, Turians, and Salarians) are perfectly well aware of the
Reaper threat, but Adm Anderson says it best when he says, "It's scarey
stuff; it's no wonder they don't want to admit it."  The FACT remains,
however, that with the Paragon Council, they could have stripped Shepard
of his spectre status then and there for working with Cerberus and it's
clear the Aasari Councilor wants to.  The others (prodded by Anderson
but nevertheless of their own volition) vote her down and restore
Shepard to full status with a clean bill of health if he "investigates"
the Collector threat in the Terminus systems.  Even Udina goes along
with that (if a councilor).

Now, consider...Shepard comes back. 
Has openly broken ties with Cerberus in about the most heavy handed way
possible, defeats the Collector threat doing so in a way (through the
Omega-4 rely) that was believed to be IMPOSSIBLE, and has proof positive
the reapers are coming.

It would be politically impossible for the council to at
least not treat Shepard as a hero and at least give what he says lip
service.  The Council is first and formost made of politicians, and
politicans can "change their minds" on a dime if the polls change.

In
short, I see the Council in ME3 as Shepard's primary backer (along with
the alliance) if you destroy the base and have gone Paragon.

"It's scarey
stuff; it's no wonder they don't want to admit it." Thats exactly the attitude I'm talking about, the council wants to cover thier ears and eyes and say "blablablablabla, I can't hear you" and call it a day. Here is a body of government that has been ruling for thousands of years but seems to have no real drive do anything other than maintain thier power with out conflict. They're not trying to expand council space but want humans to settle there, if there is a problem when they do, too bad. They completely ignore the Volus, who were instrumental in uniting various species through currency and trade.

Returning you to Spectre status is mostly a meaningless gesture. They only really want you out in the terminus systems to keep you away from them.

At some point everyone will come around to Shep's view, for most it will be at gun point. Too little too late. Let me use a real world example: Lets say the United States planned to go to war with China and there was plenty of evidence that there would be an invasion. How much could they actually do if they didn't react to that threat until the entire US Armed forces were on their borders?

Honestly the best bet for the Council's support would be for Renegade Sheps that saved the collector base and the council. Load them on the Destiny Ascention share the Reaper IFF and take them through the Omega-4 relay and show them the collector base first hand.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]Intax wrote...

Saren hadn't cured the Genopage either. He was simply working on a cure, same as Maelon. Both Okeer and Saren were cloning Krogan within Genophage confines. Its doable.
[/quote]

Not true.  Capt Kirrahe (sp?) clearly states that in fact Saren has found a cure to the genophage and that the cure had to be destroyed lest it get off planet.  It is this very statement that makes Wrex go ballistic.

[quote]
Okeer's clones were only flawed in that they didn't produce that 'perfect Krogan' that Grunt supposedly is. We don't really know what that perfection is except that Grunt will ignore the Genophage. Okeer said it himself, there was nothing wrong with his cloned Krogan. Jedore was simply too weak to control them properly.
[/quote]

Actually the cloned Krogan are obviously flawed as combat troops.  Brains may not be at a premium, but a certain about of active intelligence is needed to be a good soldier and the cloned Krogan don't have it (you meet one for yourself and it's easy to see).

[quote]
The amount of Heretic Geth are pretty miniscule compared to total amount of Geth. I vaguely remember 5% being that number, not sure where I got that figure from. Anyway, there are a couple ways of looking at the Heretic re-write; yours, where they have advanced knowledge of the Reapers and are immune to any further indoctrination or a shift in attitude of true Geth where they are more willing to align themselves with the Reapers after learning of the Heretic's experience with them. It can aslo go both ways if you destroy the Heretic station, they can be indoctrinated by the Reapers or be fully commited to fighting against them.
[/quote]

Actually it's my take that Geth can't be indoctrinated at least by the same method that organics can.  They can be "reprogrammed" but with difficulty (it took Sovereign a considerble about of time to make that virus).  Also 5% of the Geth SOFTWARE became heretics, but they had the lion's share of the experience with military grade plateforms and experience with Sovereign.

No one is saying that rewriting isn't a risk, but I am willing to bet that the rewritten Geth are considerably stronger overall than the ones that weren't.



[quote]It's a bit of a reach I admit, but there is no way the Turians
are as blind to the Reaper menance as the Turian councillor would have
you believe.  The very existance of the Thanix Cannon emphatically says
otherwise, and Garrus had the plans for it......which tells me his
connections with the Turian Military are a lot more advanced than he's
generally let on.[/quote]

The Thanix Cannon really only goes to show that the Turian military is researching military technology, not a big shock. Garrus having those plans is a great sign that he still has strong connections to the Turian military, something we'll just have to wait and see how it plays out.
[/quote]

"He who desires peace prepares for war."  If the Turians don't have an identical saying, they should.  The FACT they got Reaper technology and are actively incorporating it into their Naval Weaponry means that on some level the Turians are aware of the Reaper threat.  I would be very hestitant to judge all the Turians by that dip councillor of theirs.  Same applies to the Salarians only double.


We are never going to agree on the Council.  I see the council as being a Paragon's Natural Ally against the reaper and one that a Paragon (with Spectre status) will get.  They may give him some grief at first, but you seem to forget over and over again that the Council is MADE OF POLITICIANS and giving Shepard, Galactic Hero and the Galaxy's Best Friend and Protector is politically stupid,  The Council prior to Shepard's death aknowledged the Reaper threat (because they had to) [after the Battle of the Citedel].  They only backslid because Shepard was no longer around to keep them honest and no apparent and immediate threat appeared.

That's going to be quite different at the start of ME3.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

[
That's ridiculous.  There are only 17 million quarians left, from a civilisation that spanned several solar systems.  Even if we assume the total quarian population only ever matched our current population on Earth today, the geth reduced the quarian population by 99.75%.

If you don't think that systematically reducing a population by 99.75% constitutes an attempt at genocide you are a lunatic.

No it's not ridiculous and no I am not a "lunatic".  The Quarian population didn't crash because the Geth systematically tried to kill every Quarian that lived.  The Quarian population crashed because they tried to DESTROY THE GETH (commit genocide) and failed, and in self-defense the Geth drove the Quarians from all their planets.

In short, the Quarian population crashed by over 99% because the Quarians lost all their living space and have been unwilling or unable to find more.  Other than keeping them out of the Veil, the Geth have not initiated any contact with the Quarians at all (warlike or otherwise) but as Legion puts it, every time the "Creators" initiated contact with the Geth and though they had the advantage, they tried to wipe out the Geth 100% of the time.

-Polaris

[CaptainZaysh]

It is ridiculous, and I can only speculate as to why you think the quarians attempting to shut down all the geth is genocidal, but actually causing 99.75% of the quarians to die is not. It must be some kind of personal ideological reason.



Arguing that the geth were justified in carrying out the quarian genocide is one thing, but denying the genocide ever happened is just living in a delusional fantasy.

[Intax]

I can concede that a Paragon Shep is more likely to have a strong Krogan backing than a Renegade one. Its been awhile since I did Vermire and forgot that little bit of Kirrahe's dialogue.

Actually it's my take that Geth can't be indoctrinated at least by the
same method that organics can.  They can be "reprogrammed" but with
difficulty (it took Sovereign a considerble about of time to make that
virus).  Also 5% of the Geth SOFTWARE became heretics, but they had the
lion's share of the experience with military grade plateforms and
experience with Sovereign.

No one is saying that rewriting isn't a
risk, but I am willing to bet that the rewritten Geth are considerably
stronger overall than the ones that weren't.

There is no real information on the true Geth to suggest they have far less experience with military grade platforms. Are you only considering that they were allied with Soverign and went on the offensive with it? A small token quote of Geth lore: "Best size estimates on a single geth fleet range from 5,000 to 10,000
ships with unknown armament." Thats a huge margin of error for estimating a single Geth fleet, especially if you consider there is no intel on their weaponry.

"He who desires peace prepares for war."  If the Turians don't have an
identical saying, they should.  The FACT they got Reaper technology and
are actively incorporating it into their Naval Weaponry means that on
some level the Turians are aware of the Reaper threat.  I would be very
hestitant to judge all the Turians by that dip councillor of theirs.
 Same applies to the Salarians only double.

I can agree with this. Its just that writing all throughout ME and ME2 everyone is ignorant except Shep (and crew, exept Kaiden/Ashley), Cerberus and Anderson.

We are never going to agree on the Council.  I see the council as
being a Paragon's Natural Ally against the reaper and one that a
Paragon (with Spectre status) will get.  They may give him some grief at
first, but you seem to forget over and over again that the Council is
MADE OF POLITICIANS and giving Shepard, Galactic Hero and the Galaxy's
Best Friend and Protector is politically stupid,  The Council prior to Shepard's death aknowledged
the Reaper threat (because they had to) [after the Battle of the
Citedel].  They only backslid because Shepard was no longer around to
keep them honest and no apparent and immediate threat appeared.

I'm not forgetting that the council is made up of politicians. Quite the opposite, in fact. I've been arguing that their special brand of political prowess is complacent at best and destructive at worst. Their bad decisions don't just start with their handling of Saren and their backsliding on Soverign/Reapers. They've got centuries, no millennium of foul ups under their belt. Also, again, I do believe they will end up backing Shep regardless of your decisions but feel that their support will come too late in any scenario.

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

It is ridiculous, and I can only speculate as to why you think the quarians attempting to shut down all the geth is genocidal, but actually causing 99.75% of the quarians to die is not. It must be some kind of personal ideological reason.

No. It's simple logic.  The Geth didn't CAUSE 99.75% (or whatever) of the Quarian population to die.  The Quarians did that to themselves by essentially denying themselves a place to live.  Extinctions (for example) occured on earth long before humans ever arose, and one classic way a species became extinct was to essentially alter their environment (or have their environment be altered) in such a way to make survival impossible.

The key is INTENT.  At NO TIME do we ever see an overriding Geth intent to wipe out all Quarians.  If the Geth had such an intent, there wouldn't BE any Quarians.

The reverse, sadly, is not true.

Arguing that the geth were justified in carrying out the quarian genocide is one thing, but denying the genocide ever happened is just living in a delusional fantasy.

The Geth did NOT participate in a campaign of genecide.  If they had, they would have persued the Quarians beyond the Veil (and the Quarians were concerned at first that the Geth would).

Intention not just results determines if one is guilty of Genocide. 

-Polaris