100 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

It's really sad to watch someone lying to himself. Instead of this tortured search for a way to interpret the mass killings of billions of quarian civilians as something that wasn't genocidal, you should just be honest about your position, which is:



"I am okay with the genocide of the quarians."



Try it: you will learn a lot about yourself (and the way the universe works) once you admit this. Genocide in theory is not always indefencible; I would, for example, actively work towards the genocide of the Reapers.

[Shadow_broker]

I am Okay with the genocide of quarians



BUT LET ME MAKE THIS CLEAR

I do not support reaper genocide! It goes against everything we believe in as a galaxy!

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

It's really sad to watch someone lying to himself. Instead of this tortured search for a way to interpret the mass killings of billions of quarian civilians as something that wasn't genocidal, you should just be honest about your position, which is:

"I am okay with the genocide of the quarians."

Try it: you will learn a lot about yourself (and the way the universe works) once you admit this. Genocide in theory is not always indefencible; I would, for example, actively work towards the genocide of the Reapers.

I am sick and TIRED of you.

Let me make this perfectly clear even to the likes of you. 

If race A, causes an asteroid to fly in a different trajectory, and that happens to wipe out planet of race B, it STILL ISN"T GENOCIDE unless race A did this DELIBERATELY with intention of wiping out race A.

At no time did the Geth deliberately try to wipe out the Quarians.  GET IT YET?!?

If the Geth had wanted to wipe out the Quarians, they could have done so.  Instead they let the Quarians escape beyond the veil.

The fact that 99% of the Quarians died is IRRELEVENT.  It is intention that makes it genocide.  The Geth never intended to commit genocide on anyone (though the heretics eventually did of course but that's a different matter).

The Quarians are the ones guilty of attempted genocide, not the Geth.

Look up your words and don't call people names unless you are absolutely sure you are right (and you aren't).

-Polaris

[Mr. niceguy15]

IanPolaris, I understand your "Udina" outrage right now, but please, just stop feeding it. There is only one way to stop them:
http://media.giantbo...super_super.jpg

Modifié par Mr. niceguy15, 12 août 2010 - 01:42 .

[CaptainZaysh]

"Cognitive dissonance" is the uncomfortable feeling you get when one cherished belief ("I am against genocide") conflicts with another ("I'm okay with genocide if quarians did the dying").  Common coping strategies are denial...and angry outbursts when that denial is challenged.

IanPolaris wrote...

Let me make this perfectly clear even to the likes of you. 

If race A, causes an asteroid to fly in a different trajectory, and that happens to wipe out planet of race B, it STILL ISN"T GENOCIDE unless race A did this DELIBERATELY with intention of wiping out race A.

Agreed, and there is no need to shout.  On a video game forum it makes you look like you're suffering from a bad case of nerd rage.

IanPolaris wrote...
At [b]no time did the Geth deliberately try to wipe out the Quarians.  GET IT YET?!?

But here is a leap of logic that can't be disguised by any excess of capitalisation or punctuation.  The geth exterminated billions of quarians, and would have finished the job if the quarians hadn't fled.  This is obviously genocide - a concerted and deliberate attempt to wipe out a species.  Your asteroid example bears no relation to what the geth did.

The fact the quarians escaped the genocide does not mean...well, it doesn't mean anything, really.  The fact there are still Armenians doesn't mean the Armenian Genocide never happened.

The fact that the geth's attempt at genocide followed the quarian's attempt at genocide is also irrelevant: genocide is still genocide, whatever the excuse.  Like I said, arguing that the geth's genocide attempt was justifiable is one thing, but arguing that the genocide wasn't genocidal is just delusional.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but your pet robots are some of the most effective mass murderers the galaxy has ever known.

[uzivatel]

IanPolaris wrote...

At no time did the Geth deliberately try to wipe out the Quarians.  GET IT YET?!?

The fact that 99% of the Quarians died is IRRELEVENT.  It is intention that makes it genocide.  The Geth never intended to commit genocide on anyone (though the heretics eventually did of course but that's a different matter).

Yeah, they just happened to deliberately kill billions of civilians.

That Yellow Bastard wrote...

Renegade Shepard:
- Cerberus

If they manage to mass-produce that anti-reaper cannon, they may be the only allies youll ever need 


... then again their incompetence is legendary - they will probably blow themselves up and destroy half of the Earth in the process.

Modifié par uzivatel, 12 août 2010 - 12:09 .

[CaptainZaysh]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Also, would you argue that killing the rachni queen constitutes as genocide?

I've been thinking about this!  I think that yes, by killing the last rachni queen Shepard took part in the genocide of the rachni.

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

"Cognitive dissonance" is the uncomfortable feeling you get when one cherished belief ("I am against genocide") conflicts with another ("I'm okay with genocide if quarians did the dying").  Common coping strategies are denial...and angry outbursts when that denial is challenged.

Get over yourself.  You are simply wrong.  Flat out, incontravertibly wrong.

In order for an action to qualify as genocide, you must have the intent to wipe out the species.  That means that yes, killing the last Rachni Queen in ME1 is in fact genocide.  What the Quarians attempted to do to the Geth was genocide.

However, the Geth are not guilty of genocide in return.  Why not?  The Quarians lost billions of people as a side effect of a war they started and as a side effect of losing all their living space.  That is a perfectly natural reason to have a mass die-out for any species.

Had the Geth been guilty of genocide, they would have pursued the Quarians beyond the veil.

Genocide is a crime of INTENT and you somehow fail to understand this extremely elementary concept.  This isn't my problem.  It's your problem with simple english comprehension.

-Polaris

Edit:  I suggest you look up the legal definition of "genocide" as it's defined by the Internternational Criminal Court and others.  The key word is "deliberate" as in, you have to deliberately target a racial or national group for extermination.  At no time (and this is confirmed not only by Legion but the Quarians themselves) did the Geth deliberately try to extiminate the Quarians.  That most of the Quarians died was a side effect of the Quarian genocide of the Geth.  Side effects from war and environmental loss can be just as deedly as deliberate genocide without it being genocide.  You can't point to the death toll and scream "genocide".  Doesn't work that way.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 août 2010 - 02:24 .

[CaptainZaysh]

IanPolaris wrote...

However, the Geth are not guilty of genocide in return.  Why not?  The Quarians lost billions of people as a side effect of a war they started and as a side effect of losing all their living space.  That is a perfectly natural reason to have a mass die-out for any species.

Had the Geth been guilty of genocide, they would have pursued the Quarians beyond the veil.

Ridiculous.  The geth exterminated 99.75% of the quarian population.  

Answer this question: if the quarians had not escaped, do we have any evidence that suggests the geth would have spared the last .25%?

Of course there is no such evidence.  Therefore we conclude that the geth were actively working to wipe out the species, meeting your own definition of genocide, let alone the one you Googled for.

The fact that the geth stopped the genocide after .25% of the quarians managed to escape does not mean the genocide never happened.  You're a revisionist.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 12 août 2010 - 03:06 .

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

However, the Geth are not guilty of genocide in return.  Why not?  The Quarians lost billions of people as a side effect of a war they started and as a side effect of losing all their living space.  That is a perfectly natural reason to have a mass die-out for any species.

Had the Geth been guilty of genocide, they would have pursued the Quarians beyond the veil.

Ridiculous.  The geth exterminated 99.75% of the quarian population.  

No.  There is nothing in ME1 or 2 that says the Geth destroyed 99.75% of the Quarian population.  The only information you have is the Quarian war with the Geth caused the destruction of 99.75% of the population which is perfectly normal in a war of this scope where the losing side (the Quarians) lose ALL their living space (habitat).  When a species loses their habitate, such death rates are actually pretty normal.

Notice that the game never says the Geth deliberately targeted the Quarians for extinction.  Read your international law.

Answer this question: if the quarians had not escaped, do we have any evidence that suggests the geth would have spared the last .25%?

Depends.  The fact remains (and the Quarians confirm this), the Geth let the Quarians go.  That vindicates the Geth from any charge of genocide.  Had the Quarians decided to try to kill off the Geth to the bitter end, then obviously there would be no more Quarians, but that still wouldn't make it genocide.  Again, simple english comprehension is needed here.

Of course there is no such evidence.  Therefore the geth were actively working to wipe out the species, meeting your own definition of genocide.

Nope.  Legion and the Geth themselves make it perfectly clear the Geth never had the intent to wipe out the Quarian people.  The Quarians were afraid that the Geth would gain such motives and struck first, but the fact remains that the Geth under our current legal standards of genocide simply aren't guilty.

The fact that the geth stopped the genocide after .25% of the quarians fled does not mean the genocide never happened.

The fact the Geth stopped is proof positive the Geth never intended to wipe out the Quarians in the first place which means they are not guilty of Genocide.  Sometime I wonder if I am wasting my breath here.  The destinction should be obvious (and is recongized by the UN, Security Council, and International Criminal Court).

-Polaris

[CaptainZaysh]

IanPolaris wrote...

That means that yes, killing the last Rachni Queen in ME1 is in fact genocide.

No: it's participating in a genocide, which is slightly different.  Killing the last Englishman is not the genocide of the English; killing all the English would be one big genocide, not 60 million little genocides.

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That means that yes, killing the last Rachni Queen in ME1 is in fact genocide.

No: it's participating in a genocide, which is slightly different.  Killing the last Englishman is not the genocide of the English; killing all the English would be one big genocide, not 60 million little genocides.

Under current International Law, the act of killing the Last Rachni Queen is an act of Genocide.  If you examine the current law, multiple people can be guilty of the same basic attempt to kill race/nationality "X".  Why is it an act of Genocide?  Because you are deliberately acting in a way with the intent of eliminating a race or nationality (in this case the Rachni) from existing.  (That's a slight paraphrase but not by very much...you can look up the legal definition).

-Polaris

[CaptainZaysh]

This is hysterical.

IanPolaris wrote...

No.  There is nothing in ME1 or 2 that says the Geth destroyed 99.75% of the Quarian population.  The only information you have is the Quarian war with the Geth caused the destruction of 99.75% of the population which is perfectly normal in a war of this scope where the losing side (the Quarians) lose ALL their living space (habitat).  When a species loses their habitate, such death rates are actually pretty normal.

Yes, Ian, and what caused them to lose their habitat?  Did it have anything to do with the actions of your pet death robots?

IanPolaris wrote...

Answer this question: if the quarians had not escaped, do we have any evidence that suggests the geth would have spared the last .25%?

Depends.  

Hahahaha!  On what?

IanPolaris wrote...
The fact remains (and the Quarians confirm this), the Geth let the Quarians go.  That vindicates the Geth from any charge of genocide.

No, it doesn't.  It means they stopped exterminating them, not that they never intended to exterminate them in the first place.  Despite you trying to wriggle off the hook with your "depends" non-answer, there is no evidence to suggest the geth would stop at killing 99.75% of the quarians, is there?

IanPolaris wrote...
Had the Quarians decided to try to kill off the Geth to the bitter end, then obviously there would be no more Quarians, but that still wouldn't make it genocide.  Again, simple english comprehension is needed here.

This is brilliant.  So even if the geth had deliberately wiped out the entire quarian species, they wouldn't have committed genocide?  I need more than reading comprehension to understand that.

Please explain how the geth choosing to deliberately wipe out the quarian species wouldn't be an act of genocide.  I am dying to hear this.

[CaptainZaysh]

IanPolaris wrote...

Under current International Law, the act of killing the Last Rachni Queen is an act of Genocide.  If you examine the current law, multiple people can be guilty of the same basic attempt to kill race/nationality "X".  Why is it an act of Genocide?  Because you are deliberately acting in a way with the intent of eliminating a race or nationality (in this case the Rachni) from existing.  (That's a slight paraphrase but not by very much...you can look up the legal definition).

-Polaris

Yes, it's an act of genocide.  It's not the genocide itself.

[IanPolaris]

[quote]CaptainZaysh wrote...

This is hysterical.

[quote]IanPolaris wrote...

No.  There is nothing in ME1 or 2 that says the Geth destroyed 99.75% of the Quarian population.  The only information you have is the Quarian war with the Geth caused the destruction of 99.75% of the population which is perfectly normal in a war of this scope where the losing side (the Quarians) lose ALL their living space (habitat).  When a species loses their habitate, such death rates are actually pretty normal.[/quote]

Yes, Ian, and what caused them to lose their habitat?  Did it have anything to do with the actions of your pet death robots?
[/quote]

The Geth took over Quarian worlds as part of the war and the Quarians refused to play nice with the Geth.  Result:  Those world are lost to the Quarians as living space.  For the record even in modern war, killing of civilians as part of a military campaign is not an act of Genocide even if it results in a massive amount of casualties and even the eventual extermination of one or more groups.  The intent to exterminate the group in the first place has to be there and there is no evidence that the Geth ever intended to exterminate the Quarians and lots of evidence that they did not.


[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
[quote]
Answer this question: if the quarians had not escaped, do we have any evidence that suggests the geth would have spared the last .25%?
[/quote]

Depends.  [/quote]

Hahahaha!  On what?
[/quote]

If the Quarians had been dumb enough to keep fighting.  There is no evidence that the Quarians even tried to negotiate with the Geth.  When you bring Legion to Tali's loyalty mission, it rapidly becomes clear that the Quarians never tried to make peace with the Geth.  Ever.

If the Quarians keep attacking you, and you kill them all, it still is not genocide.  It's self defense.  YOU are not making the decision to wipe out their species.  They are.  It's not a hard concept.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
The fact remains (and the Quarians confirm this), the Geth let the Quarians go.  That vindicates the Geth from any charge of genocide. [/quote]

No, it doesn't.  It means they stopped exterminating them, not that they never intended to exterminate them in the first place.  Despite you trying to wriggle off the hook with your "depends" non-answer, there is no evidence to suggest the geth would stop at killing 99.75% of the quarians, is there?
[/quote]

There is plenty of evidence.  The Geth never pursued the Quarians beyond the Veil despite lots of opportunity to do so (and it's what the Quarians would have done had the roles been reversed....and what the Quarians expected).  That is prima facia evidence that the Geth never intended to wipe out the Quarians as a species.  Also if you talk with Legion and take him on Tali's recuitment and loyalty missions, you get lots of dialog that shows the Geth were never interested in wiping out the creators and lots of evidence that the Quarians never considered (at least until recently) any solution other than wiping out the Geth.

[quote]
[quote]IanPolaris wrote...
Had the Quarians decided to try to kill off the Geth to the bitter end, then obviously there would be no more Quarians, but that still wouldn't make it genocide.  Again, simple english comprehension is needed here.[/quote]

This is brilliant.  So even if the geth had deliberately wiped out the entire quarian species, they wouldn't have committed genocide?  I need more than reading comprehension to understand that.

Please explain how the geth choosing to deliberately wipe out the quarian species wouldn't be an act of genocide.  I am dying to hear this.
[/quote]

Because my dim-witted friend, the Geth never deliberately tried to wipe out anyone.  That was not the intent of their "morning war".  Their only intent was to survive.  It was Quarian intransigence that pushed the Quarians to the brink of extinction.  Just because species A wipes out species B does NOT ipso facto make it genocide.  The intent has to be there to wipe out the species and the Geth never had that intent.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Under current International Law, the act of killing the Last Rachni Queen is an act of Genocide.  If you examine the current law, multiple people can be guilty of the same basic attempt to kill race/nationality "X".  Why is it an act of Genocide?  Because you are deliberately acting in a way with the intent of eliminating a race or nationality (in this case the Rachni) from existing.  (That's a slight paraphrase but not by very much...you can look up the legal definition).

-Polaris

Yes, it's an act of genocide.  It's not the genocide itself.

Two things:

1.  Given this is the first true contact between humans and Rachni, and as a human you have the opportunity to wipe out the Rachni as a race permanently, this is genocide even by your standards.

2.  Under international law, you are guilty of genocide.  That is what you would be charged with before the ICC.  Read the statutes.

-Polaris

[xI extremist Ix]

kanuvis wrote...

- Quarian - by helping them in Tali's pilgrimaje (ME1),
Haestrom and the Tali's Trial, because as is said in the end Tali has
support to be Admiral in the flotilla (and she accepts for sure between
ME2 and ME3)
-
Cerberus: like the Alliance if they are really what they say, then they
will be with you no matter what you did, after all they are still
working on their things, making a reaper and stuff, no matter what
shepard did at the end of ME2.

Okay, lets get back on topic.

If you talk to Tali she tells you she doesn't want to be an admiral.
Cerberus will help you, but one of the ending will have them kill you I bet.

I just hope this game doesn't go Dragons Age on us.

Modifié par xI extremist Ix, 12 août 2010 - 03:44 .

[IanPolaris]

xI extremist Ix wrote...

Have you guys spoken to Legion in the game?

I have and what he has to say both in the Normandy and during Tali's missions are very interesting.  The person I'm talking to clearly hasn't.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

xI extremist Ix wrote...
Okay, lets get back on topic.

If you talk to Tali she tells you she doesn't want to be an admiral.
Cerberus will help you, but one of the ending will have them kill you I bet.

I just hope this game doesn't go Dragons Age on us.

I agree that Tali doesn't want to be an admiral and given her closeness to Shep (assuming Paragon Shep for a moment), I don't think she will be in ME3.  However at the very end/epilog, I think she will be convinced to become one for the good of her people.  It's pretty clear at least to me that the Quarians tend to put the needs of their people over their own (and Tali certainly does), and that family ties are important to Quarians.  Given that Tali has shown her expertise, skill, and loyalty while with Shepard and given her father was an admiral (and if you watch Kal'Reegar, it's pretty clear that Tali is an officer in Quarian society and a high ranking officer at that), I think she'd be a natural to at least be nominated for the Admiralty.

-Polaris

Edit PS:  I think that ME3 will resemble DA in it's basic plot structure.  The tricky part will be that some faction "quests" will be either unavailable or completely altered depending on your choices in ME1 and 2 (esp depending on overall Paragon-Renegade path).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 12 août 2010 - 03:54 .

[xI extremist Ix]

IanPolaris wrote...

xI extremist Ix wrote...
Okay, lets get back on topic.

If you talk to Tali she tells you she doesn't want to be an admiral.
Cerberus will help you, but one of the ending will have them kill you I bet.

I just hope this game doesn't go Dragons Age on us.

I agree that Tali doesn't want to be an admiral and given her closeness to Shep (assuming Paragon Shep for a moment), I don't think she will be in ME3.  However at the very end/epilog, I think she will be convinced to become one for the good of her people.  It's pretty clear at least to me that the Quarians tend to put the needs of their people over their own (and Tali certainly does), and that family ties are important to Quarians.  Given that Tali has shown her expertise, skill, and loyalty while with Shepard and given her father was an admiral (and if you watch Kal'Reegar, it's pretty clear that Tali is an officer in Quarian society and a high ranking officer at that), I think she'd be a natural to at least be nominated for the Admiralty.

Possible on the Tali part, but you also have to factor in the variables to go with it.
Romancing her, exiling her, pardoning her, or betraying her father. Each one could have a different effect on whether or not she becomes an admiral.

[Thompson family]

Re: "Admiral" Tali



The game's foreshadowing is pretty heavy here. Tali mentions that there's an effort afoot to nominate her after the trial (Paragon path.)



Paragon Shep's speech at the trial is virtually a campaign speech "She knows more about the Geth than any Quarian alive ... You should be listening to her, not judging her ... She stopped Saren and the Geth. She showed the whole galaxy the worth of the Quarian people," and so on.



If Tali returns to the Migrant Fleet with Shepard and with -- at the very least -- a workable ceasefire proposal with the Geth that could someday lead to a peaceful resettlement of the home world, her elevation to the Admiralty Board seems assured.

[Dean_the_Young]

Cerberus is pretty sure to help your regardless: they brought back a Paragon Shepard for the same general reasons they brought back a Renegade, and destroying the Collector base didn't change the occasion.



The Krogan are going to either be allies or not regardless of whether you kept Wrex alive. If you killed him, all that changes is that his brother Wreave takes power and gradually unifies the Krogan through 'traditional' Krogan methods, without any interest in reforms.



I don't see why the Quarians are less inclined to fight the Reapers if you're a Renegade than a Paragon: the help might be less if they fight the Geth, but then a Renegade also is more likely to have hostile Geth (never recruiting Legion).



If you did recruit Legion and took the Renegade at the Heretic Station, you still get Geth as well. So you can't really say 'Renegades can't get Legion as a squad mate', since recruiting Legion isn't even a Paragon/Renegade binary choice.



And chances are the Council, whichever Council it is, is going to act as well if only to save their own hide, even if the Collector Base decision effects the tone of the early game. A Paragon gets the multi-species Council, while the Renegade gets the human-dominated Council.







So really the only true variable Ally to date is the Rachni, while the Geth and Quarians may have variable levels depending on what you tell them to do (which, again, may not even matter).

[xI extremist Ix]

Thompson family wrote...

Re: "Admiral" Tali

The game's foreshadowing is pretty heavy here. Tali mentions that there's an effort afoot to nominate her after the trial (Paragon path.)

Paragon Shep's speech at the trial is virtually a campaign speech "She knows more about the Geth than any Quarian alive ... You should be listening to her, not judging her ... She stopped Saren and the Geth. She showed the whole galaxy the worth of the Quarian people," and so on.

If Tali returns to the Migrant Fleet with Shepard and with -- at the very least -- a workable ceasefire proposal with the Geth that could someday lead to a peaceful resettlement of the home world, her elevation to the Admiralty Board seems assured.

Right, but there is a way to get Tali pardoned without using Paragon or Renegade choices. All you have to do is give Veetor to the quarians, and save Kal'Reegar. During the final part of the trial select the middle option and it will rally the crowd forcing the board to drop charges.

[TK Dude]

xI extremist Ix wrote...

Thompson family wrote...

Re: "Admiral" Tali

The game's foreshadowing is pretty heavy here. Tali mentions that there's an effort afoot to nominate her after the trial (Paragon path.)

Paragon Shep's speech at the trial is virtually a campaign speech "She knows more about the Geth than any Quarian alive ... You should be listening to her, not judging her ... She stopped Saren and the Geth. She showed the whole galaxy the worth of the Quarian people," and so on.

If Tali returns to the Migrant Fleet with Shepard and with -- at the very least -- a workable ceasefire proposal with the Geth that could someday lead to a peaceful resettlement of the home world, her elevation to the Admiralty Board seems assured.

Right, but there is a way to get Tali pardoned without using Paragon or Renegade choices. All you have to do is give Veetor to the quarians, and save Kal'Reegar. During the final part of the trial select the middle option and it will rally the crowd forcing the board to drop charges.

In addition, you should talk to the admirals.

[uzivatel]

IanPolaris wrote...

Because my dim-witted friend, the Geth never deliberately tried to wipe out anyone.  That was not the intent of their "morning war".  Their only intent was to survive.  It was Quarian intransigence that pushed the Quarians to the brink of extinction.  Just because species A wipes out species B does NOT ipso facto make it genocide.  The intent has to be there to wipe out the species and the Geth never had that intent.

-Polaris

I guess you could say Srebrenica, Rwanda or even Holocaust were not genocide...