271 réponses à ce sujet

[MerinTB]

the_one_54321 wrote...

I wanted to slap Morrigan because she has nothing of value to add by speaking. At least, not in the objective sense. She was entertaining as a character. The kind you love to hate.

In.
Your.
Opinion.

She's not bad.

Just.
Different.

Modifié par MerinTB, 16 juillet 2010 - 10:26 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Narreneth wrote...
I said you were pretentious once.  And in the same post went on to say I am also pretentious and that it's okay to be a little pretentious.  I'm sorry if you're going to dwell on that, but I left it behind awhile ago.  And again, I've found insult with waht you've said only twice.  And only when you were being insulting.

You mean only when you thought I was being insulting. I've been called pretentious multiple times, even if you personally only used the word once. I've also been called snotty, and you said that you think I'm better than everyone else.

Well, if I'm so insulting and pretentious then why are you still here? 

"I'm more interested in just talking for a bit" is not an inherently flirty line either.  Yes, the inflection in Hale's voice is there, but that is simply an oversight in not taking it out.  You're more than able to tell him you aren't interested in that kind of thing and it won't be brought up again but "I'm more interested in talking for a bit" still has the same inflection.  The line itself isn't always supposed to come off as flirty.

Right, the line isn't supposed to come off as flirty, yet it does and I have no control over it. I can try to ignore it (because I have no other choice unless I ignore Jacob completely), but that doesn't fix the problem. The problem shouldn't exist, and indeed it wouldn't exist in a system like DAO uses. DAO may be limited, but ME2 is by far more limited. That's just the nature of the dialogue system. I can try to pretend or imagine that Shepard really didn't mean to sound flirty, but she did sound flirty. It completely saps immersion and pulls me out of the character. I could try to mute the TV, but then I'd be forced to use subtitles and I'd miss out on the other sounds.

I'm just saying, I much prefer DAO's style because it's far less limited.

[Narreneth]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

Narreneth wrote...
Yes I'm aware you can't give everyone everything all the time.  The point is, though, that concept was taken from me saying that the game limits you by its very nature and there are situations that you can't get out of even with imagining a line means something else.  I gave the example of wanting to be able to tell Lady Isolde to shut the **** up when she was acting hysterical, which apparently translates into me  having the "lofty expectation" wanting to **** slap everyone that annoys my character when the purpose of the example was not to complain about not having the option but to simply point out that sometimes one doesn't exist and you just go with it or you turn the game off and you don't.  I wasn't upset I couldn't tell her to shut up.  Just would have been nice on a couple of my characters that I built that would have.

True but again - think about how the game would have been if they had actually put in a [slap] option for every character who gets out of it in DA:O - Shianni, Isolde, Tower Guard, Cullen after you kill Uldred and so on. After the first two, the game would suddenly have become a parody of itself and thus you can't offer that particular option all the time. Sidney mentioned the ME2 interrupts and for all my gripes about ME2, I will say that those were done right - not because of their number but because most (at least the Paragon ones) were different. The Renegade ones sadly always defaulted to physical violence, but the Paragon ones were diverse and really contextual. But that's also my point - most Renegade actions in ME2 has Shepard beating someone up and to me it just becomes the bad kind of comical - something trying to be über cool and ending up trying way too hard - sort of like Roland Emmerich's "Independence Day" after the first act.

Narreneth wrote...
That said I really just wanted to tell her to shut up and be insulting
to her in my case. 

Well you should have said that before I started pulling out all the stops on the arguments

I can't say much for Renegade in ME2 because I played through as Paragon everytime I played it through.  I used a couple of Renegade options but as my Renegade meter never got particularly full I didn't ahve a lot of option.  I tend to like being as diplomatic and "virtuous" as possible when I play games.  I played one playhrough as Renegade in ME1 and it didn't fit my style.

[Narreneth]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Narreneth wrote...
I said you were pretentious once.  And in the same post went on to say I am also pretentious and that it's okay to be a little pretentious.  I'm sorry if you're going to dwell on that, but I left it behind awhile ago.  And again, I've found insult with waht you've said only twice.  And only when you were being insulting.

You mean only when you thought I was being insulting. I've been called pretentious multiple times, even if you personally only used the word once. I've also been called snotty, and you said that you think I'm better than everyone else.

Well, if I'm so insulting and pretentious then why are you still here? 

"I'm more interested in just talking for a bit" is not an inherently flirty line either.  Yes, the inflection in Hale's voice is there, but that is simply an oversight in not taking it out.  You're more than able to tell him you aren't interested in that kind of thing and it won't be brought up again but "I'm more interested in talking for a bit" still has the same inflection.  The line itself isn't always supposed to come off as flirty.

Right, the line isn't supposed to come off as flirty, yet it does and I have no control over it. I can try to ignore it (because I have no other choice unless I ignore Jacob completely), but that doesn't fix the problem. The problem shouldn't exist, and indeed it wouldn't exist in a system like DAO uses. DAO may be limited, but ME2 is by far more limited. That's just the nature of the dialogue system. I can try to pretend or imagine that Shepard really didn't mean to sound flirty, but she did sound flirty. It completely saps immersion and pulls me out of the character. I could try to mute the TV, but then I'd be forced to use subtitles and I'd miss out on the other sounds.

I'm just saying, I much prefer DAO's style because it's far less limited.

I'm still here because I am also pretentious and insulting and I don't think they're damning characteristics, just hard to get around sometimes.  I think there's a lot of substance to what you have to say.

I don't think there's anything wrong with preferring DAO's style.  I don't really prefer VO's to non voiced characters to be honest with you. As long as it works with the game I am happy with it.  If the VO work for DA2 ends up not feeling right to me, I'll certainly rally behind keeping it out of DA3.  For now, though, I'm willing to give it a whirl and see how it plays out.  

[Fraevar]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Right, the line isn't supposed to come off as flirty, yet it does and I have no control over it. I can try to ignore it (because I have no other choice unless I ignore Jacob completely), but that doesn't fix the problem. The problem shouldn't exist, and indeed it wouldn't exist in a system like DAO uses. DAO may be limited, but ME2 is by far more limited. That's just the nature of the dialogue system. I can try to pretend or imagine that Shepard really didn't mean to sound flirty, but she did sound flirty. It completely saps immersion and pulls me out of the character. I could try to mute the TV, but then I'd be forced to use subtitles and I'd miss out on the other sounds.

I'm just saying, I much prefer DAO's style because it's far less limited.

This is a really good point. I had much the same experience when I played through ME2. I wasn't really interested in Jacob - I'd decided femShep was going to go for Garrus, and yet in the second or third conversation, Shepard sounds like she just wants to hop on the table right there. A serious moment emphasized by the system design (dialogue wheel in this case) which equates taking the "nice/polite" option with: "I wanna jump your bones"

So yes, the wheel as a system does impose limits. In some cases it can be directly misleading, which is why I welcome statements that the DA2 team aren't just using the ME team's version. It remains to be seen, however, if the changes the DA2 team make will still allow for a deeper roleplaying experience.

Narreneth wrote...

I can't say much for Renegade in ME2
because I played through as Paragon everytime I played it through.  I
used a couple of Renegade options but as my Renegade meter never got
particularly full I didn't ahve a lot of option.  I tend to like being
as diplomatic and "virtuous" as possible when I play games.  I played
one playhrough as Renegade in ME1 and it didn't fit my style.

I don't either, usually. But I did try it out, because I wanted to see what it was like and that is what I found. Shepard as a renegade is a complete and utter thug - the kind whose behaviour would hopefully see him court-marshalled and run out of the military, if he did it today. It's excessive force, abusing authority, torture of prisoners - all those sorts of wonderful things. That's not someone I want to play, but even when playing a Paragon, Shepard is really confined because BioWare didn't give him a personality. He's a blank slate, but in my case the VO throws me off so much that I can't get into it - I don't care about him as a character and thus could care less about his "galaxy saving mission".

Modifié par Delerius_Jedi, 16 juillet 2010 - 10:39 .

[Narreneth]

Also as far as pretentious and insulting goes, it's pretty mild. It's not like you're on the rooftops bellowing out how awesome you think you are and how ****ty and stupid everyone else is.

[the_one_54321]

MerinTB wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I wanted to slap Morrigan because she has nothing of value to add by speaking. At least, not in the objective sense. She was entertaining as a character. The kind you love to hate.

In.
Your.
Opinion.

She's not bad.

Just.
Different.

I didn't say she was bad... I said she had nothing of value to offer by speaking.

[Sidney]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...

True, but within the lore of the DA setting you could argue that it wasn't your place to slap Isolde, since she's a noblewoman, if anything it would be Teagan's responsibility (and he won't do it because he loves his brother).

As for your point on accepting limits of choice, I actually agree - but the trick there comes in the form of how that limit is imposed. If it's organic, like lore or plot based then I'm fine with it, but it becomes a problem when it originates elsewhere, like in the animations or the VO performance. There were times in ME2 where I really wanted Shepard to give someone a pat on the back and sound just a little bit encouraging and positive. I couldn't do either - the first because BioWare never scripted it visually and the second because they don't allow Mark Meer to put any emotion other than gruff/angry into his performance. And because of the VO, I can't even act like Shepard did it anyway.

Yeah and there were times in DAO I wanted to do the same thing and the options weren't there - well not so much pat someone on the back but I had no options available for what I wanted to do. The limited options are just that. Some people willingly accept/make excuses for the limits of the menu/unvoiced DAO but can't escape the issues with the VO.

It just goes back to the fact that you can't capture exactly what you want in cRPG's and instead, to me, the best you can do is try and properly capture the overall flavor of your character because on the line by line, conversation by conversation level that character won't be you because of the interference of the writers. My DAO characters all played out pretty much "true" to who they were in the broad strokes. So did my Shep in ME/2. Take them at any point in the story and is the dialog just so for them.....mmmm doubtful.

[Waage25]

Bioware makes Action RPG's you cant expect them to make true Crpg.



It is not what they do.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

wrexingcrew wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...
That's pretty much how this post makes me feel.

Your image-posting skills will no doubt make her reconsider her well-considered points, spelled out in hundreds of words. That picture of a crying child...that'll teach someone to have a reasonable opinion on the internet.

I can write thousands of words without saying anything, while I can write two sentences while saying more.  This OP bores me as I've read it before, its just the director's cut version.

So basically, you're saying you have nothing of value to offer, gotcha.

Pretty much, that much of a surprise?

[Narreneth]

Waage25 wrote...

Bioware makes Action RPG's you cant expect them to make true Crpg.

It is not what they do.

Not this crap again.  Quit using words like "true" when you're describing things.  It's demeaning and it doesn't make any sense.  What you consider "true" cRPG other people may not.  If you're not happy with the games, don't play them.  

[MerinTB]

Narreneth wrote...

Waage25 wrote...

Bioware makes Action RPG's you cant expect them to make true Crpg.

It is not what they do.

Not this crap again.  Quit using words like "true" when you're describing things.  It's demeaning and it doesn't make any sense.  What you consider "true" cRPG other people may not.  If you're not happy with the games, don't play them.  

I think your a purple unicorn.

No, don't tell me your not.  By my definition of a purple unicorn, you are one.

There's no point in trying to get a definition of purple unicorn that we all agree on.  There are too many variables, no one will agree on them.

To me, you are a purple unicorn.

:innocent:

[Onyx Jaguar]

I never heard this term CRPG before coming to this forum. Hooray for something I guess.

[Bryy_Miller]

the_one_54321 wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
I wanted to slap Morrigan because she has nothing of value to add by speaking. At least, not in the objective sense. She was entertaining as a character. The kind you love to hate.

In.
Your.
Opinion.

She's not bad.

Just.
Different.

I didn't say she was bad... I said she had nothing of value to offer by speaking.

Morrigan is already pregnant. We need her to make us sandwiches now.

[Riona45]

MerinTB wrote...
To me, you are a purple unicorn.

Oh yeah?  Well, you're a FISH!

[Riona45]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

I never heard this term CRPG before coming to this forum. Hooray for something I guess.

Computer roleplaying game, in case you didn't know.

[Riona45]

Narreneth wrote...

If you're really roleplaying you could slap her regardless of whether it's your place or not.  If your character doesn't follow the social code, your character doesn't follow the social code.

That said I really just wanted to tell her to shut up and be insulting to her in my case. 

The game does allow you to sass Isolde a bit.  When you first meet her, she says her "isn't that an impertinent question?" line.  You can apologize, or say "Not if it's true."

[MassEffect762]

All you got to know is do your own homework before buying.



Never trust anyone, especially salesman.(Anyone on BW/EA payroll)

[Narreneth]

Riona45 wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

If you're really roleplaying you could slap her regardless of whether it's your place or not.  If your character doesn't follow the social code, your character doesn't follow the social code.

That said I really just wanted to tell her to shut up and be insulting to her in my case. 

The game does allow you to sass Isolde a bit.  When you first meet her, she says her "isn't that an impertinent question?" line.  You can apologize, or say "Not if it's true."

Yeah I know.  There are times when she gets downright screechy and hysterical though, and it would have helped to have some of the "shut up and do as i say" options that pop up in conversations elsewhere in the game.

[Narreneth]

MerinTB wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Waage25 wrote...

Bioware makes Action RPG's you cant expect them to make true Crpg.

It is not what they do.

Not this crap again.  Quit using words like "true" when you're describing things.  It's demeaning and it doesn't make any sense.  What you consider "true" cRPG other people may not.  If you're not happy with the games, don't play them.  

I think your a purple unicorn.

No, don't tell me your not.  By my definition of a purple unicorn, you are one.

There's no point in trying to get a definition of purple unicorn that we all agree on.  There are too many variables, no one will agree on them.

To me, you are a purple unicorn.

:innocent:

You aren't making any sense.  What you tried to do was (and very weakly) denounce the possibility that people have different ideas of what  a "true" CRPG is.  If anything the literal nature of your example serves my purposes more than yours.

CRPG = Computer Role Playing Game.  Dragon Age 2 is a Role Playing Game and it is run by a computer; therefore, it is a computer roleplaying game.

[MerinTB]

Narreneth wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

Waage25 wrote...
Bioware makes Action RPG's you cant expect them to make true Crpg.

It is not what they do.

Not this crap again.  Quit using words like "true" when you're describing things.  It's demeaning and it doesn't make any sense.  What you consider "true" cRPG other people may not.  If you're not happy with the games, don't play them.  

I think your a purple unicorn.

No, don't tell me your not.  By my definition of a purple unicorn, you are one.

There's no point in trying to get a definition of purple unicorn that we all agree on.  There are too many variables, no one will agree on them.

To me, you are a purple unicorn.

:innocent:

You aren't making any sense.  What you tried to do was (and very weakly) denounce the possibility that people have different ideas of what  a "true" CRPG is.  If anything the literal nature of your example serves my purposes more than yours.

CRPG = Computer Role Playing Game.  Dragon Age 2 is a Role Playing Game and it is run by a computer; therefore, it is a computer roleplaying game.

The purple unicorn employs a tautology!  Splendid.

He's all the more a purple unicorn!

[Khavos]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Alrite, let's play:
Decipher the Double-talk!!

Round 1! Don't fix what isn't broken!
In the recent GameInformer article, Greg Zeschuk says that you shouldn't try to fix what's not broken. Why, then, is DA2 such a drastic departure? The article goes on and on about how successful DAO was, and how that proved that fans still like the old-style RPG format. So, again, if you don't want to fix what isn't broken, why are you setting out to do just that? This doesn't make any sense. People liked DAO. BioWare supposedly liked DAO, so why does it seem like I'm going to be playing Mass Effect?

My personal theory is that because DA:O was Bioware's best-selling game to date, somebody somewhere in the corporate food chain figured that if it sold well as a pure RPG, it'll sell REALLY well as a hybrid that'll attract "the masses."

Round 3! 'A Story in Pieces'
Yeah, this whole mini-article was rather strange. It basically says that the game is told in a narrative style by certain characters and implies that Hawke will be warping around the world and timeline. What's troubling is that Mike Laidlaw repeatedly says that this method allows the focus of the game to be centered around the "action" and "skip the interstitial between key action moments..." Yeah, this is basically saying the game will be broken up into a series of remarkably linear "levels", isn't it? At best it sounds like we can hope for a ME2-style of exploration, which is pretty much trash. Sounds like we won't be able to properly explore places at our leisure because we'll be forced into specific areas to suit the narration.

No, it sounds even worse than that.  Camp's gone, clearly.  So too is any sense that you're actually traipsing about a world, however flawed that sense might have been in DA:O.  You'll be finishing off a level and listening to some character BS you into the next one.  I believe what that means is most of the plot development is simply going to be told to you by one of these doubtlessly quirky narrators, and you'll just get plopped into the middle of some fight when they're done explaining why you're there.  Conversation's going to be pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things, as it's not how you're going to discover what's going on.  You're going to get some "awesomely cinematic" cutscenes accompanying the narration.  

Round 4! LITHE SUPER-NINJA SPARTANS!!!

Yeah, okay, if that's an accurate summation of what was said in the article, then this is officially Mass Effect 3: The Dragon Age. 

Round 5! Depth vs. Breadth

Now it's even more official.  They said the same thing with ME2's laughable skill progression.

DA2's getting the ME2 "streamlining" treatment.  I really don't understand how anyone could possibly argue otherwise at this point.  

[MerinTB]

Khavos wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Round 5! Depth vs. Breadth

Now it's even more official.  They said the same thing with ME2's laughable skill progression.

DA2's getting the ME2 "streamlining" treatment.  I really don't understand how anyone could possibly argue otherwise at this point.  

I'll argue it!

uhm...

simply because I want it to not be so?

[Khavos]

MerinTB wrote...
I'll argue it!

uhm...

simply because I want it to not be so?

Me too.

Incidentally, I'll bet someone a Camaro that we're going to see ME2's party armor system.  Meaning, of course, that your companions are going to have some "really cool" clothes that they're going to stay in the entire game, because you won't be able to put them in armor.

Also, while I'm not quite as confident, I'm still willing to bet a '92 Camry that the inventory system's gone. 

[Andaius20]

I agree with you Mys, it's happening more and more. "traditional" RPG are getting "mass marketified" Just look at what happened to my beloved Fallout series. Got turned into the opposite of it's original intent.

For all those cry about how change is good, how come they all embrace the "turn every game into a FPS action game no matter it's genre" train of thought? I( mean I liek FPS and all but I don't want every game in existence to be one. But sadly it happens more and more do to the "mainstream". I'm also not very confident in Bioware anymore because of there resent "scrap it don't fix it" ploy in ME 2.

Als oI have a problem with the dialog wheel in general as lots of times wha tis paraphrased isn't wha tthe actual dialog is. For example if you ignored or didn't know (like my first tiem playing ME) that paragon and renegade options always filled in certain spots on the wheel. you can make mistakes o nwha tyour character is saying. For example one option from ME 2 when talking to the asari that was rescued by the Raqchni queen you have the line " tell her to be good" What can you infer about this line? Atfirst I thought it was just that, somethign along the lines of keep up the good work.  However since it was lower right it ended up "I'm watching and if she steps out of line I'm goign to hunt her down and kill her." How do yo uget tha tline from "Tell her to be good"?

Also happened in ME 1 when I think your at Zhu's hope, and youo get a message from Joker saying how the colonists are trying to get on/in the ship. One of the options is "keep them away from the ship." This was an instances of where me being a newbie to the ME dialog system came into play for a real out of character shock. I picked it expecting a "fire warning shots" or some other none leathal means to keep them at bay. but Shep said soemthign along the lines of "Keep them off at all cost kill them all! If yo uhad a menu system with the actual dialog listed this woudl never happen.

Modifié par Andaius20, 17 juillet 2010 - 10:52 .