271 réponses à ce sujet

[fchopin]

Khavos wrote...

Now it's even more official.  They said the same thing with ME2's laughable skill progression.

DA2's getting the ME2 "streamlining" treatment.  I really don't understand how anyone could possibly argue otherwise at this point.  

Sorry but we don’t know that that is the case, when we know more about the game hopefully in the near future we will have a better idea on what changes are made.
 
I have hope that DA2 will still be an rpg with an open world.

[MerinTB]

fchopin wrote...

Khavos wrote...
Now it's even more official.  They said the same thing with ME2's laughable skill progression.

DA2's getting the ME2 "streamlining" treatment.  I really don't understand how anyone could possibly argue otherwise at this point.  

Sorry but we don’t know that that is the case, when we know more about the game hopefully in the near future we will have a better idea on what changes are made.
 
I have hope that DA2 will still be an rpg with an open world.

Uhm - either the PR department is asleep on the job, or the BioWare reps are "stretching the truth" to appeal to a certain demographic.

Pulling from what I quoted before:

"give Dragon Age a shot of adrenaline (effectively) amping up everything that maybe was a little lacking" - Mark Darrah
"just as Commander Shepard provides a compelling anchor for the Mass Effect series, the Champion of Kirkwall will be..." - Joe Juba
"how hard it is to work initially on PC and then convert the game back to console ... (i)n the case of Dragon Age II ...we're definitely ensuring the features we put in work well on console ... because it is typically much easier to convert them back to PC." - Ray Muzyka.
GI: Has Bioware's success with the Mass Effect series affected the studio's approach to Dragon Age?
Greg Zeschuk: ... it's fair to say that Mass Effect has had an influence on Dragon Age.

The rest of the GI article is chock full of references to ME this and ME that, as well as repeatedly referring to "classic RPG elements" as being "dated" and "needing replacement" while constantly referring to ME.

You. Play. Connect. The. Dots.

In reality these conclusions may be wrong, but if they are wrong then EA and BioWare's PR and/or Marketing people need to be fired.

Modifié par MerinTB, 17 juillet 2010 - 05:14 .

[Noir201]

MerinTB wrote...

Uhm - either the PR department is asleep on the job, or the BioWare reps are "stretching the truth" to appeal to a certain demographic.

Pulling from what I quoted before:

"give Dragon Age a shot of adrenaline (effectively) amping up everything that maybe was a little lacking" - Mark Darrah
"just as Commander Shepard provides a compelling anchor for the Mass Effect series, the Champion of Kirkwall will be..." - Joe Juba
"how hard it is to work initially on PC and then convert the game back to console ... (i)n the case of Dragon Age II ...we're definitely ensuring the features we put in work well on console ... because it is typically much easier to convert them back to PC." - Ray Muzyka.
GI: Has Bioware's success with the Mass Effect series affected the studio's approach to Dragon Age?
Greg Zeschuk: ... it's fair to say that Mass Effect has had an influence on Dragon Age.

The rest of the GI article is chock full of references to ME this and ME that, as well as repeatedly referring to "classic RPG elements" as being "dated" and "needing replacement" while constantly referring to ME.

You. Play. Connect. The. Dots.

In reality these conclusions may be wrong, but if they are wrong then EA and BioWare's PR and/or Marketing people need to be fired.

Yep, agree with you, i think if these do happen in terms of what happens with DA2, and all this talk from devs saying "but you haven't seen it yet" yet the HUGE preview from GI is right, then what will end up happening, is alot of review sites (ones that don't review high due to payouts) will slam the game for being nothing but a copy of ME in a different world.

I don't trust the PR department of bioware ever since the awakening farce.

[Bryy_Miller]

MerinTB wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Khavos wrote...
Now it's even more official.  They said the same thing with ME2's laughable skill progression.

DA2's getting the ME2 "streamlining" treatment.  I really don't understand how anyone could possibly argue otherwise at this point.  

Sorry but we don’t know that that is the case, when we know more about the game hopefully in the near future we will have a better idea on what changes are made.
 
I have hope that DA2 will still be an rpg with an open world.

Uhm - either the PR department is asleep on the job, or the BioWare reps are "stretching the truth" to appeal to a certain demographic.

Pulling from what I quoted before:

"give Dragon Age a shot of adrenaline (effectively) amping up everything that maybe was a little lacking" - Mark Darrah
"just as Commander Shepard provides a compelling anchor for the Mass Effect series, the Champion of Kirkwall will be..." - Joe Juba
"how hard it is to work initially on PC and then convert the game back to console ... (i)n the case of Dragon Age II ...we're definitely ensuring the features we put in work well on console ... because it is typically much easier to convert them back to PC." - Ray Muzyka.
GI: Has Bioware's success with the Mass Effect series affected the studio's approach to Dragon Age?
Greg Zeschuk: ... it's fair to say that Mass Effect has had an influence on Dragon Age.

The rest of the GI article is chock full of references to ME this and ME that, as well as repeatedly referring to "classic RPG elements" as being "dated" and "needing replacement" while constantly referring to ME.

You. Play. Connect. The. Dots.

In reality these conclusions may be wrong, but if they are wrong then EA and BioWare's PR and/or Marketing people need to be fired.

What is so wrong about a guy being honest about his game?

[bjdbwea]

MerinTB wrote...

In reality these conclusions may be wrong, but if they are wrong then EA and BioWare's PR and/or Marketing people need to be fired.

That's a possibility, but I very much doubt their PR people are that bad. In fact, PR is probably what BioWare/EA do best these days. At least the kind of PR that impresses the mainstream press and audience. Probably not so much as far as their fans of old are concerned, but they are apparently not of much concern in the first place.

Conclusion: They mean what they say. I would give them the benefit of the doubt once, but that was ME 2. There will be no pre-ordering of any BioWare game from me anymore. The Cerberus network wasn't worth much either. So if - as likely - DA 2 will include a similar scheme, that will certainly not prevent me from buying the game used, if I will have any interest in it at all.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 17 juillet 2010 - 05:35 .

[fchopin]

MerinTB wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Khavos wrote...
Now it's even more official.  They said the same thing with ME2's laughable skill progression.

DA2's getting the ME2 "streamlining" treatment.  I really don't understand how anyone could possibly argue otherwise at this point.  

Sorry but we don’t know that that is the case, when we know more about the game hopefully in the near future we will have a better idea on what changes are made.
 
I have hope that DA2 will still be an rpg with an open world.

Uhm - either the PR department is asleep on the job, or the BioWare reps are "stretching the truth" to appeal to a certain demographic.

Pulling from what I quoted before:

"give Dragon Age a shot of adrenaline (effectively) amping up everything that maybe was a little lacking" - Mark Darrah
"just as Commander Shepard provides a compelling anchor for the Mass Effect series, the Champion of Kirkwall will be..." - Joe Juba
"how hard it is to work initially on PC and then convert the game back to console ... (i)n the case of Dragon Age II ...we're definitely ensuring the features we put in work well on console ... because it is typically much easier to convert them back to PC." - Ray Muzyka.
GI: Has Bioware's success with the Mass Effect series affected the studio's approach to Dragon Age?
Greg Zeschuk: ... it's fair to say that Mass Effect has had an influence on Dragon Age.

The rest of the GI article is chock full of references to ME this and ME that, as well as repeatedly referring to "classic RPG elements" as being "dated" and "needing replacement" while constantly referring to ME.

You. Play. Connect. The. Dots.

In reality these conclusions may be wrong, but if they are wrong then EA and BioWare's PR and/or Marketing people need to be fired.

I understand what you are saying but i hope you are wrong, i am willing to give Bioware a chance until we see a few trailers or more info is forthcoming.
 
Remember that DA:O is an rpg not a hybrid like ME1 that turned in to a shooter game in ME2.

[Bryy_Miller]

I don't think people realize that ME1 was ME2 but with horrible combat ad far less interaction.

[orpheus333]

DA runs on quite outdated mechanics and these are needing an overhaul. After multiple play throughs this becomes increasingly apparent. The old cRPG systems of looting and single linear story blocks is old and creaky and ultimately detracts from the real experience which is the 'role-playing'. The combat in DA was a auto-attack fest, little interaction and very little gameplay beyond min/maxing no matter the difficulty level.



The core mechanics are there in DA:O, its just needs to be swifter, animations need to combine better and characters need to be able to have more independance on the battle field while retaining an immersive visual style. The combat needs to draw the player in instead of being an event that holds up the story-telling. Re-positioning a rogue and waiting for that next cooldown timer on a mage is neither fun nor engaging enough. It can be though the core mechanics are there already the strategic elements are already in place.



Dialogue was also un-engaging and un-immersive with the old text system for the PC and its needed to be canned for a long, long time. VO will always be better for immersing the player into the story and dialogue than text, there is a significant dislocation between player and experience when having to read text in a world that is fully voice. It worked in BG because the majority of dialogue was text, the odd line of spoken dialogue here and there (for the romances etc) added importance and emotion to the experience. Where as a mute PC in a talking, laughing world feels like something is drastically missing. It just brings nothing to the table anymore.



Interesting that the conspiracy theorists have brought up the devs interviews though. Really scrapping the bottom of the barrel here aren't we folks? The key thing to remember about game development isnot evolution. Its iteration, create the ground work first, the core technology, the the core game systems, then improve upon those systems as time goes on. Taking succesful ideas from other products is not 'stealing' its iteration finding systems that work well, improving on them and weeding out the chaff. Text-Based Dialogue and mechanically clunky combat is the chaff.



When it comes down to being given a single backstory for my character to follow and my role-playing to riff from I have no problems with it and the self proclaimed 'role-playing' elite on this forum surprise me in their short sightedness when it comes to having the oppertunity to play a more focused and personal protagonist.

[casedawgz]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

I don't think people realize that ME1 was ME2 but with horrible combat ad far less interaction.

Yeah, I literally cannot play ME1 anymore. The combat is disgusting.

[Khavos]

fchopin wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Now it's even more official.  They said the same thing with ME2's laughable skill progression.

DA2's getting the ME2 "streamlining" treatment.  I really don't understand how anyone could possibly argue otherwise at this point.  

Sorry but we don’t know that that is the case,

Yes, we do.  Just read some of these interviews. 

[fchopin]

Khavos wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Khavos wrote...

Now it's even more official.  They said the same thing with ME2's laughable skill progression.

DA2's getting the ME2 "streamlining" treatment.  I really don't understand how anyone could possibly argue otherwise at this point.  

Sorry but we don’t know that that is the case,

Yes, we do.  Just read some of these interviews. 

I have but we need to give the game a chance.
DA2 is not the only game that is changing the way rpg's are made, the witcher 2 is going down a similar road.
 
I think the old way of rpg's is about to change and we should stick around and try to guide it in the right direction.
 
I love the old style rpg's but i also know that time does not stand still for anything in life and this is the time for change for rpg's.
 
There is nothing we can do to stop this so it's either give up or stick around.

[SDNcN]

casedawgz wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

I don't think people realize that ME1 was ME2 but with horrible combat ad far less interaction.

Yeah, I literally cannot play ME1 anymore. The combat is disgusting.

I wanted to cry while I was trying to finish ME1 again for the save.

Modifié par SDNcN, 17 juillet 2010 - 08:26 .

[Khavos]

fchopin wrote...

I have but we need to give the game a chance.
DA2 is not the only game that is changing the way rpg's are made, the witcher 2 is going down a similar road.
 
I think the old way of rpg's is about to change and we should stick around and try to guide it in the right direction.
 
I love the old style rpg's but i also know that time does not stand still for anything in life and this is the time for change for rpg's.
 
There is nothing we can do to stop this so it's either give up or stick around.

I already gave them a chance with ME2, when they used literally the exact same sort of statements about how they were refining ME1's gameplay for ME2 as they're using with DA:O and DA:2.  Making the combat more "kinetic" and "fun", making the skill system "deeper" instead of as broad, punching up the worth of a third-person narrative over a first-person, etc.  They've done this all before.

I understand that you want to trust them, and believe that DA2 is going to be a deep RPG with the same illusions of non-linearity that DA:O had.  Unfortunately, given their recent track record and the statements they're officially making now, there's far less evidence for that than there is that it's getting the ME2 treatment.  I'll give you 10 to 1 odds that we'll be hearing about the "streamlining" of inventory and gear mechanics fairly soon, for example.  I hope you like what Beth's wearing in the screenshots, in other words, because you won't be changing it.  

[fchopin]

Khavos wrote...

fchopin wrote...

I have but we need to give the game a chance.
DA2 is not the only game that is changing the way rpg's are made, the witcher 2 is going down a similar road.
 
I think the old way of rpg's is about to change and we should stick around and try to guide it in the right direction.
 
I love the old style rpg's but i also know that time does not stand still for anything in life and this is the time for change for rpg's.
 
There is nothing we can do to stop this so it's either give up or stick around.

I already gave them a chance with ME2, when they used literally the exact same sort of statements about how they were refining ME1's gameplay for ME2 as they're using with DA:O and DA:2.  Making the combat more "kinetic" and "fun", making the skill system "deeper" instead of as broad, punching up the worth of a third-person narrative over a first-person, etc.  They've done this all before.

I understand that you want to trust them, and believe that DA2 is going to be a deep RPG with the same illusions of non-linearity that DA:O had.  Unfortunately, given their recent track record and the statements they're officially making now, there's far less evidence for that than there is that it's getting the ME2 treatment.  I'll give you 10 to 1 odds that we'll be hearing about the "streamlining" of inventory and gear mechanics fairly soon, for example.  I hope you like what Beth's wearing in the screenshots, in other words, because you won't be changing it.  

I understand how you feel but give them another chance, maybe they learned the mistakes from ME2 and will improve them for DA2.

[Desyndra]

bjdbwea wrote...

That's a possibility, but I very much doubt their PR people are that bad. In fact, PR is probably what BioWare/EA do best these days. 

Uhm... they have yet to say something interesting about this Hawke, because the fact that he/she has a sister, and then he/she becomes the Champ of some Kirkwall is just not enough.

Frankly, ever since they revealed Flemeth's reappearance, I'm more interested in her, than in this Hawke. So... either this Hawke is badly underdeveloped, or the PR department did a number on the whole announcement thing.

[bjdbwea]

Desyndra wrote...

Uhm... they have yet to say something interesting about this Hawke, because the fact that he/she has a sister, and then he/she becomes the Champ of some Kirkwall is just not enough.

Frankly, ever since they revealed Flemeth's reappearance, I'm more interested in her, than in this Hawke. So... either this Hawke is badly underdeveloped, or the PR department did a number on the whole announcement thing.

Patience. Good PR plays their audience like an instrument. A hype doesn't build itself. In any case, you will hear what they want you to, and when they want. It's why all that begging for pieces of information on these forums is futile.

[MerinTB]

andyr1986 wrote...
DA runs on quite outdated mechanics and these are needing an overhaul. After multiple play throughs this becomes increasingly apparent. The old cRPG systems of looting and single linear story blocks is old and creaky and ultimately detracts from the real experience which is the 'role-playing'. The combat in DA was a auto-attack fest, little interaction and very little gameplay beyond min/maxing no matter the difficulty level.

The core mechanics are there in DA:O, its just needs to be swifter, animations need to combine better and characters need to be able to have more independance on the battle field while retaining an immersive visual style. The combat needs to draw the player in instead of being an event that holds up the story-telling. Re-positioning a rogue and waiting for that next cooldown timer on a mage is neither fun nor engaging enough. It can be though the core mechanics are there already the strategic elements are already in place.

Dialogue was also un-engaging and un-immersive with the old text system for the PC and its needed to be canned for a long, long time. VO will always be better for immersing the player into the story and dialogue than text, there is a significant dislocation between player and experience when having to read text in a world that is fully voice. It worked in BG because the majority of dialogue was text, the odd line of spoken dialogue here and there (for the romances etc) added importance and emotion to the experience. Where as a mute PC in a talking, laughing world feels like something is drastically missing. It just brings nothing to the table anymore.

Interesting that the conspiracy theorists have brought up the devs interviews though. Really scrapping the bottom of the barrel here aren't we folks? The key thing to remember about game development isnot evolution. Its iteration, create the ground work first, the core technology, the the core game systems, then improve upon those systems as time goes on. Taking succesful ideas from other products is not 'stealing' its iteration finding systems that work well, improving on them and weeding out the chaff. Text-Based Dialogue and mechanically clunky combat is the chaff.

When it comes down to being given a single backstory for my character to follow and my role-playing to riff from I have no problems with it and the self proclaimed 'role-playing' elite on this forum surprise me in their short sightedness when it comes to having the oppertunity to play a more focused and personal protagonist.

For YOU, perhaps.

I probably couldn't disagree with you more.  DAO is probably my favorite game since VTM: Bloodlines was released.  Nothing else (not ME, not Bioshock, not MUA) comes close.

What you find "old", "inoperative", "clunky", "un-immersive", "creaky" and other dismissive terms I find "engaging", "fun", "what I want from my cRPGs" and other positive terms.

I accept that my tastes are not for all gamers - for those needing more action, there's Demon Souls or even ME.  Why can't there be a DAO series out there amongst all the action RPGs and FPS story-lite games?  Does Guitar Hero need guns and a story?  Does Bejeweled need blood, gore, or character avatars?

NOT ALL GAMES NEED PLEASE EVERYONE.

I like DAO more or less as is - the changes I would personally want are even more "old school."

[Bryy_Miller]

SDNcN wrote...

casedawgz wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

I don't think people realize that ME1 was ME2 but with horrible combat ad far less interaction.

Yeah, I literally cannot play ME1 anymore. The combat is disgusting.

I wanted to cry while I was trying to finish ME1 again for the save.

I just rushed through it. Did it in six hours.

[twincast]

casedawgz wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

I don't think people realize that ME1 was ME2 but with horrible combat ad far less interaction.

Yeah, I literally cannot play ME1 anymore. The combat is disgusting.

ME1 is an above-average RPG with below-average shooter mechanics, while ME2 is an above-average shooter with below-average RPG mechanics. Both nice for a change, but neither really satisfying. Now to imagine if ME3 could at least be average in both regards! I would actually happily deal with an even shorter playtime if they'd do that.

Modifié par twincast, 17 juillet 2010 - 11:40 .

[twincast]

andyr1986 wrote...

DA runs on quite outdated mechanics and these are needing an overhaul. After multiple play throughs this becomes increasingly apparent. The old cRPG systems of looting and single linear story blocks is old and creaky and ultimately detracts from the real experience which is the 'role-playing'. The combat in DA was a auto-attack fest, little interaction and very little gameplay beyond min/maxing no matter the difficulty level.

[...]

When it comes down to being given a single backstory for my character to follow and my role-playing to riff from I have no problems with it and the self proclaimed 'role-playing' elite on this forum surprise me in their short sightedness when it comes to having the oppertunity to play a more focused and personal protagonist.

I see where you are coming from, but ... facepalm. I love (good) JRPG's as much as the next guy, but that doesn't mean I want DA to turn into one. Like I've mentioned elsewhere, Shepard's terribly bland because he fails at striking an Emotionally Engaging middle ground between the archetypal hero types of JRPGs and WRPGs. A somewhat broader personality spectrum and an actual background may help Hawke succeed where Shepard failed. We'll see.

As far as looting goes... admittedly it wasn't fun to revisit areas several times in Origins just to get all the useless loot to sell to scratch together the little money there was in the game, but neither was it fun to find almost no loot whatsoever and be showered with craploads of gold in Awakening.
But if you want to see some really terrible loot system (at least for compulsive completists), have a look at Drakensang. And if you want to see a near perfect loot system, have a look at its prequel (The River of Time). Now that's some proper evolution in a series! One can only hope that the buyout of the developer to a corporation obsessed with facebook games won't affect the quality of the third game. I'm way less optimistic than even in BW/EA's case, though.

[Rulian]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
Round 4! LITHE SUPER-NINJA SPARTANS!!!
--snip--

Hopefully Spartan translates to tactical unit formations rather than cinema aesthetics like loud yelling at the camera and blood foutains.  Controlling soldiers who can physically block enemies from your mages in a user friendly manner is one of those things that RTS games make RPGs look bad.

[Andaius20]

Khavos wrote...

fchopin wrote...

I have but we need to give the game a chance.
DA2 is not the only game that is changing the way rpg's are made, the witcher 2 is going down a similar road.
 
I think the old way of rpg's is about to change and we should stick around and try to guide it in the right direction.
 
I love the old style rpg's but i also know that time does not stand still for anything in life and this is the time for change for rpg's.
 
There is nothing we can do to stop this so it's either give up or stick around.

I already gave them a chance with ME2, when they used literally the exact same sort of statements about how they were refining ME1's gameplay for ME2 as they're using with DA:O and DA:2.  Making the combat more "kinetic" and "fun", making the skill system "deeper" instead of as broad, punching up the worth of a third-person narrative over a first-person, etc.  They've done this all before.

I understand that you want to trust them, and believe that DA2 is going to be a deep RPG with the same illusions of non-linearity that DA:O had.  Unfortunately, given their recent track record and the statements they're officially making now, there's far less evidence for that than there is that it's getting the ME2 treatment.  I'll give you 10 to 1 odds that we'll be hearing about the "streamlining" of inventory and gear mechanics fairly soon, for example.  I hope you like what Beth's wearing in the screenshots, in other words, because you won't be changing it.  

For me now everytime they say "Improved" I think so they cut the previous mechanic and replaced it with a more action/shooty version ripped fro mthe latest best seller. OR Added in pointless mechanics ( Like ammo oh sorry Heatsinks) to please the shooter crowd. I actually liked that change up in ME 1. IT was something that set the game apprat. but I guess if your going mass market yo ucan't be different then the "latest craze" no matter wha tGenre you are.