271 réponses à ce sujet

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Wishpig wrote...
Actually I always make sure to read the first two pages and the last two pages before I post

No I am not saying anything new and unique... and I'm not creating a thread to say it. Which is the point. Just hoping to help keep the countless threads like this one at bay. Perhaps a useless attempt but, mah, I try.

If my thread was really so useless and had nothing to offer, I'm sure it would have been or will be locked by someone with actual authority. IE: not you.

As it stands you're just spamming my thread, mayhap even trolling.

I know some of my points have been mentioned in other threads. Some I have not really seen. This is my comprehensive list of complaints and concerns I had about the article and the game as it's been revealed thus far.
And the fact that I've been getting replies and arguments implies that people have something unique to add. If you think this is a useless thread, leave. kthxbai

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:36 .

[Narreneth]

Wishpig wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Wishpig wrote...
Ok explain the irony for me would you? Because I don't see it... I reckon you didn't even read it if you think that. If I created a new thread bashing people like you for creating threads like this. THAT would be irony.

The irony is that you accuse me of adding nothing new and saying nothing unique, yet your post is completely meaningless and trite.

And I'm quite sure you only read like three posts of this topic before you decided to "lolagree" with someone calling me pretentious.

Actually I always make sure to read the first two pages and the last two pages before I post

No I am not saying anything new and unique... and I'm not creating a thread to say it. Which is the point. Just hoping to help keep the countless threads like this one at bay. Perhaps a useless attempt but, mah, I try. There are good points out there... but creation of threads like these keep them spread apart or cause them to get buried by OTHER threads. It's a major problem on populated and busy forums like these.

The more posts I read of yours the more I am convinced that I really do want to run away to Paris with you. 

[Narreneth]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Wishpig wrote...
Actually I always make sure to read the first two pages and the last two pages before I post

No I am not saying anything new and unique... and I'm not creating a thread to say it. Which is the point. Just hoping to help keep the countless threads like this one at bay. Perhaps a useless attempt but, mah, I try.

If my thread was really so useless and had nothing to offer, I'm sure it would have been or will be locked by someone with actual authority. IE: not you.

As it stands you're just spamming my thread, mayhap even trolling.

I know some of my points have been mentioned in other threads. Some I have not really seen. And the fact that I've been getting replies and arguments implies that people have something unique to add. If you think this is a useless thread, leave. kthxbai

You are pretty pretentious, though.  Pretention is common on these boards, however.  I can be really pretentious myself.  It's not that your thread is useless per se, it's that this exact conversation has been had in many many threads before and while you may be new to it, a lot of people on the forums aren't.  You're just going to have to understand that some people are sick of discussing the same bullet points over and over again where some people may not have really gotten into the conversation yet.

[Wishpig]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Wishpig wrote...
Actually I always make sure to read the first two pages and the last two pages before I post

No I am not saying anything new and unique... and I'm not creating a thread to say it. Which is the point. Just hoping to help keep the countless threads like this one at bay. Perhaps a useless attempt but, mah, I try.

If my thread was really so useless and had nothing to offer, I'm sure it would have been or will be locked by someone with actual authority. IE: not you.

As it stands you're just spamming my thread, mayhap even trolling.

I know some of my points have been mentioned in other threads. Some I have not really seen. This is my comprehensive list of complaints and concerns I had about the article and the game as it's been revealed thus far.
And the fact that I've been getting replies and arguments implies that people have something unique to add. If you think this is a useless thread, leave. kthxbai

Fine... you want me to contribute something more?

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
. In fact, I can actually point out
that a lot of people didn't buy ME because they thought Sheploo was the
only option. They didn't know a female Shepard was possible because
BioWare idiotically ignored her for everything. The option to choose
gender wasn't even mentioned on the ME2 website... It's idiotic how far
they go with their "icon", and their excuses won't cut it this time.

You
can't say that complaining won't do any good. It might, it might not.
But, you know what? Saying nothing at all is guaranteed not to do
anyone any good.

Ok... point it out. I'm curious to see the stats to back up the fact any considerable amount of people didn't buy the game because they didn't know there was a female shepard. Whip 'um out.

[Sidney]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I can't make a line sarcastic if the delivery is clearly not sarcastic.

Yeah and well you can't do that anyways. You might "hear it" in your head that way but the NPC is going to react to it in a totally jarring way sometimes.

Question: "Are you going to leave us to our fates?"
Answer: You pick answer #2 "Of course, I always leave helpless people to suffer a horrible death." <--- You hear sarcasm and have a big friendly grin in mind when you speak the words.
Response: "You are a horrible monster", peasants run off crying Allistair -10, Leliana -10, Morrigan +5

The tone you want in a CRPG does...not...matter. All conversatiojns have specific responses to each dialog no matter how you want to say thm. Your voice exists in your own mind but has nothing to do with the game and can well often conflict with it.

Try it anytime, go into the game and "deliver the line" with whatever tone, inflection, mood or intent you want and see the reaction. Save it, and do it again with a different tone, inflection, mood or intent. I'll bet you the NPC has the same reponse.

[the_one_54321]

Actually, according to the writers you will have options labeled with attitudes as well as brief line summaries. It could still be really bad. But you will know the tone of the response before you choose it.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Sidney wrote...
Try it anytime, go into the game and "deliver the line" with whatever tone, inflection, mood or intent you want and see the reaction. Save it, and do it again with a different tone, inflection, mood or intent. I'll bet you the NPC has the same reponse.

Your example is an extreme case.

There are times when the line is obviously meant to be said a certain way. There are times when the intent is open and you can make it what you want. The NPC reaction is not always "damning" to your choice of intent. That's frequently true with the romance dialogue and such. I can tell Leliana that her watching me sleep is "creepy", but I can say it jokingly, seriously, or otherwise. I can't remember exactly, but Leliana either laughs or moves on with the conversation, making my inflection whatever I wanted it to be.

On the flipside, take ME2. My femShep talking to Jacob is HORRID!! She sounds way too flirty with "I just want to talk for a bit." line. And I would not be forced to listen to that if it wasn't voiced. And I hate a LOT of Meer's delivery in general. It hurts my connection to my character.

Wishpig wrote
Ok... point it out. I'm curious to see the stats to back up the
fact any considerable amount of people didn't buy the game because they
didn't know there was a female shepard. Whip 'um out.

Yeah, I don't have actual stats, but I've heard a LOT of testimony from people who said they didn't know ME offered a female option until someone else, like a friend, told them. That's a failing on BioWare's part.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Narreneth wrote...
You're just going to have to understand that some people are sick of discussing the same bullet points over and over again where some people may not have really gotten into the conversation yet.

I understand that perfectly well. If you're sick of it, don't do it. Quite simple. If it's really overkill, as I said, a dev will lock it and defer to the other thread in which it's being discussed.

[Brockololly]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Actually, according to the writers you will have options labeled with attitudes as well as brief line summaries. It could still be really bad. But you will know the tone of the response before you choose it.

If you've seen the GI article and the screenshots in it, you can see the dialogue wheel in one case with Hawke in the foreground and Bethany in the background-

Its got 3 paraphrased blurbs:

1.) "I'm right beside you"
2.) "Neither can they"
3.)"Then we fight"- this one is highlighted with a red fist symbol in the center of the wheel.

So it seems the attitude is only indicated by a symbolic icon in the center of the wheel. Its not terrible but I'm wondering how they'll communicate a range of emotions through symbols without it devolving into a paragon/renegade type scenario.

I'm sure we'll find out what all the symbols mean but it just seems like an unnecessary compliction when compared to pure text dialogue choices.

Modifié par Brockololly, 16 juillet 2010 - 07:58 .

[Sidney]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

There are times when the line is obviously meant to be said a certain way. There are times when the intent is open and you can make it what you want. The NPC reaction is not always "damning" to your choice of intent. That's frequently true with the romance dialogue and such. I can tell Leliana that her watching me sleep is "creepy", but I can say it jokingly, seriously, or otherwise. I can't remember exactly, but Leliana either laughs or moves on with the conversation, making my inflection whatever I wanted it to be.

It isn't always damning but your tone doesn't matter in any case. You can pick a tone and the coded response happens to work with that tone but your selection of tone doesn't matter. It is happenstance it does matchup with your desired tone (and more than likely you are applying a tone based on what you know the answer to matchup with because if you've played enough RPG's you know the good, bad and total jerk responses) and you can pick 8000 different tones in your reponse and you'll still always get the same response.

[Narreneth]

Sidney wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I can't make a line sarcastic if the delivery is clearly not sarcastic.

Yeah and well you can't do that anyways. You might "hear it" in your head that way but the NPC is going to react to it in a totally jarring way sometimes.

Question: "Are you going to leave us to our fates?"
Answer: You pick answer #2 "Of course, I always leave helpless people to suffer a horrible death." <--- You hear sarcasm and have a big friendly grin in mind when you speak the words.
Response: "You are a horrible monster", peasants run off crying Allistair -10, Leliana -10, Morrigan +5

The tone you want in a CRPG does...not...matter. All conversatiojns have specific responses to each dialog no matter how you want to say thm. Your voice exists in your own mind but has nothing to do with the game and can well often conflict with it.

Try it anytime, go into the game and "deliver the line" with whatever tone, inflection, mood or intent you want and see the reaction. Save it, and do it again with a different tone, inflection, mood or intent. I'll bet you the NPC has the same reponse.

I've said this a million times, most people don't want to hear it though.  Quite ridiculous.

[the_one_54321]

Brockololly wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
Actually, according to the writers you will have options labeled with attitudes as well as brief line summaries. It could still be really bad. But you will know the tone of the response before you choose it.

If you've seen the GI article and the screenshots in it, you can see the dialogue wheel in one case with Hawke in the foreground and Bethany in the background-

Its got 3 paraphrased blurbs:

1.) "I'm right beside you"
2.) "Neither can they"
3.)"Then we fight"- this one is highlighted with a red fist symbol in the center of the wheel.

So it seems the attitude is only indicated by a symbolic icon in the center of the wheel. Its not terrible but I'm wondering how they'll communicate a range of emotions through symbols without it devolving into a paragon/renegade type scenario.

I'm sure we'll find out what all the symbols mean but it just seems like an unnecessary compliction when compared to pure text dialogue choices.

Hmm... like most things so far, it could be good, or it could be horrible.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Sidney wrote...
It isn't always damning but your tone doesn't matter in any case. You can pick a tone and the coded response happens to work with that tone but your selection of tone doesn't matter. It is happenstance it does matchup with your desired tone (and more than likely you are applying a tone based on what you know the answer to matchup with because if you've played enough RPG's you know the good, bad and total jerk responses) and you can pick 8000 different tones in your reponse and you'll still always get the same response.

Why do people find the concept of role-playing in an RPG so difficult? It may not matter with the NPC's response. It does matter to role-playing the character.

This is about making the character your own, even if it is somewhat "superficial" to some people or in terms of how the NPC will respond. And I'd rather be slightly limited in tone based on the NPC reaction than be forced into a tone I would never even consider because of the PC's voice acting.

I really don't want to take a flirtatious tone with Jacob, but the only way to avoid that is to never talk to him. I wouldn't have that problem if it was a DAO system. I can't properly role play Shepard, and it seems I can't properly role play Hawke either.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 16 juillet 2010 - 08:11 .

[Nozybidaj]

Narreneth wrote...

You're just going to have to understand that some people are sick of discussing the same bullet points over and over again where some people may not have really gotten into the conversation yet.

Then why don't YOU go to a thread discussing issues YOU would like to discuss and leave the rest of us to discuss issues we would like to discuss.  Problem solved for both of us.

[Brockololly]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Hmm... like most things so far, it could be good, or it could be horrible.

Yeah, the whole icon thing seems like it could get ridiculous if its not handled carefully. I mean is a red fist supposed to mean "angry" or just "mildly angry" or "I'm so ticked off  I'm going to scream and yell!" angry? And how do you portray emotions like saracastic or joking- thats the designer's job but it seems like it could get cumbersome depending on how in depth they go. But if its not in depth enough, then its basically a knock off of the paragon/renegade system.

Just have to wait to see it in motion....

[Sidney]

Narreneth wrote...

Sidney wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

I can't make a line sarcastic if the delivery is clearly not sarcastic.

Yeah and well you can't do that anyways. You might "hear it" in your head that way but the NPC is going to react to it in a totally jarring way sometimes.

Question: "Are you going to leave us to our fates?"
Answer: You pick answer #2 "Of course, I always leave helpless people to suffer a horrible death." <--- You hear sarcasm and have a big friendly grin in mind when you speak the words.
Response: "You are a horrible monster", peasants run off crying Allistair -10, Leliana -10, Morrigan +5

The tone you want in a CRPG does...not...matter. All conversatiojns have specific responses to each dialog no matter how you want to say thm. Your voice exists in your own mind but has nothing to do with the game and can well often conflict with it.

Try it anytime, go into the game and "deliver the line" with whatever tone, inflection, mood or intent you want and see the reaction. Save it, and do it again with a different tone, inflection, mood or intent. I'll bet you the NPC has the same reponse.

I've said this a million times, most people don't want to hear it though.  Quite ridiculous.

Well and let me give two specific examples for folks to mull over for their precious menu system. Both DAO not made up and both happened in my first playthrough as a pretty bitter, human hating, Maker doubting, broke City Elf Warrior.

Example 1: Leliana gets to the shoes conversation.
I pick "I love shoes". I'm in the moment, I've been ripping on this poor girl from the word go and "I love shoes" as a sarcastic reponse just lept out at me as exactly what I'd say to her at that moment. Of course, that is the mega-positive reponse and the game total missed my mood and intent. Big let down.

Example 2: Helping Defend Recliffe gets me negative points from Morrigan. She sees it as being helpful but what I want to say is "Sure we'll help save the village if it means the Arl will be free to send his armies to help me and oh BTW give me a huge reward." That's not there so I can't even "mean" what I want o mean.

The wheel/menu or voiced/unvoiced don't change anything. They are all imperfect ways of expressing your wishes because they do not use your words or your tone. This is nothing more than amped up choose your own adventure stuff where each dialog option is a go to page 82 type thing. Yes, the VA will sometimes say something in the way you didn't want it but sometimes the menu option won't "say it" the right way either. The VA won't always say what you want him to say but the menu won't always give you all the options you want to say either.

[Sidney]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Why do people find the concept of role-playing in an RPG so difficult? It may not matter with the NPC's response. It does matter to role-playing the character.

How are you playing a role if the world doesn't repond to you? What makes the RP matter in any game is that the world is alive and it chnages and reponds to who you are. Using your logic I could role play a character in Modern Warfare because I hear that voice in my head. It doesn't mean anything but I can hear it.

In the example in my other post about "I love shoes" the game totally missed my meaning. I was role playing my character as angry and sacrastic but when Leliana reponds in exactly the wrong way it obliterates that role play for me and reminds me all I am doing is picking pre-set options and to get the right repsonse I have to make the right selection.

[Narreneth]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Narreneth wrote...

You're just going to have to understand that some people are sick of discussing the same bullet points over and over again where some people may not have really gotten into the conversation yet.

Then why don't YOU go to a thread discussing issues YOU would like to discuss and leave the rest of us to discuss issues we would like to discuss.  Problem solved for both of us.

There's no need to be an ass hole.  Did I say anything about myself being really tired of it?  I don't mind discussing it with different people so long as they're willing to actually have a conversation without resorting to general ****tery, insults, etc.  You are obviously not capable of this as you've already started in with the ****tery without ever entering into a discussion. 

[Nozybidaj]

Sidney wrote...
...snip...

The situations you posted and your reactions to them are great examples of what Myst was trying to say earlier.  You are missing the whole point of it being a role-playing experience and instead wanting the game to feed you all the subtleties and emotions like you're watching a movie.

Take your first example with Leliana.  If I was that character and used the "I love shoes" response I wouldn't have seen it as the game misinterpreting my response or having the characters behave in a way out of synch with my intentions.  It would have simply been another example of Leliana acting like a doofus and reinforcing my characters opinion of her as my sarcasm went completely over her head.

If you have a voiced PC though, that never becomes an issue.  You have no option in the tone of a response, everything is predetermined for you.

Personally the VO isn't a big deal to me.  I think there are larger issues with the direction of DA2, but I understand what Myst is trying to say.

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 16 juillet 2010 - 08:29 .

[Addai]

Sidney wrote...

Example 1: Leliana gets to the shoes conversation.
I pick "I love shoes". I'm in the moment, I've been ripping on this poor girl from the word go and "I love shoes" as a sarcastic reponse just lept out at me as exactly what I'd say to her at that moment. Of course, that is the mega-positive reponse and the game total missed my mood and intent. Big let down.

And you can picture your character walking away thinking Leliana is more clueless than ever because it went over her head.

Or when I would choose a joking line with Alistair and he gives me a -5 when normally he would give small bumps for a wiseass response, I can put it down to having crossed a line with him.

Sure, these situations cropped up, but an NPC responding in an unpredictable way is not a big limitation on roleplay.  A PC reacting in an unpredictable way is.  Even if they get every single paraphrase-to-VO signal perfect, there is no way a VO can match the inflection you might put on a situation in your head.

Example 2: Helping Defend Recliffe gets me negative points from Morrigan. She sees it as being helpful but what I want to say is "Sure we'll help save the village if it means the Arl will be free to send his armies to help me and oh BTW give me a huge reward." That's not there so I can't even "mean" what I want o mean.

And you think that would prevent Morrigan from disapproving of your actions anyway?  She had her opinion and you had yours.  Looks like good roleplay to me, not bad.

Yes, the VA will sometimes say something in the way you didn't want it but sometimes the menu option won't "say it" the right way either. The VA won't always say what you want him to say but the menu won't always give you all the options you want to say either.

So instead of one layer of distance between player and PC, there will now be another layer, the voice acting.  If one is limiting, why should I be happy about more?

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Sidney wrote...
How are you playing a role if the world doesn't repond to you? What makes the RP matter in any game is that the world is alive and it chnages and reponds to who you are. Using your logic I could role play a character in Modern Warfare because I hear that voice in my head. It doesn't mean anything but I can hear it.

In the example in my other post about "I love shoes" the game totally missed my meaning. I was role playing my character as angry and sacrastic but when Leliana reponds in exactly the wrong way it obliterates that role play for me and reminds me all I am doing is picking pre-set options and to get the right repsonse I have to make the right selection.

Have you ever played a table-top game?  A lot of role-playing is based around your ability to imagine something.

Your shoes example is one specific moment. And you can still role play it as a sarcastic line and tell yourself that Leliana simply didn't pick up on the sarcasm because she was so excited about shoes. I do that with Morrigan a lot. I "sarcastically" agree with her and role play it as if she misunderstood me.

That's impossible with Shepard and Hawke.

[Narreneth]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Sidney wrote...
...snip...

The situations you posted and your reactions to them are great examples of what Myst was trying to say earlier.  You are missing the whole point of it being a role-playing experience and instead wanting the game to feed you all the subtleties and emotions like you're watching a movie.

Take your first example with Leliana.  If I was that character and used the "I love shoes" response I wouldn't have seen it as the game misinterpreting my response or having the characters behave in a way out of synch with my intentions.  It would have simply been another example of Leliana acting like a doofus and reinforcing my characters opinion of her as my sarcasm went completely over her head.

If you have a voiced PC though, that never becomes an issue.  You have no option in the tone of a response, everything is predetermined for you.

Personally the VO isn't a big deal to me.  I think there are larger issues with the direction of DA2, but I understand what Myst is trying to say.

If that's the case then you can roleplay your way out of any situation.  The thing is, you're applying elements from tabletop roleplaying to video game roleplaying.  If you want a world that is really there for you with no limitations, you should be looking for a group of friends to get together and roll some dice on the weekends.  In a game where there are parameters it doesn't matter if you "roleplay" a tone and then "roleplay" the response the person gives you as them misinterpreting you.  What is really going on is yourself misinterpreting the intent of the option in the game.

If you're in a university class taking a multiple choice final and choose A over B when B is the correct answer, your intent doesn't matter, nor does assuming the test misinterpreted what you meant.  You got it wrong.  Parameters define the actual possibility. 

You can roleplay with the parameters given in Dragon Age.  If you were to select the option that says "I love shoes" and Leliana goes for it, and that isn't what you meant by it:  pick the one that is sarcastic that doesn't say "I love shoes."  Her reaction will be the same.  The game will treat it the same.  DA:O may be a single player experience, but it is not so open-ended that your intent shapes the world.

[Narreneth]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Sidney wrote...
How are you playing a role if the world doesn't repond to you? What makes the RP matter in any game is that the world is alive and it chnages and reponds to who you are. Using your logic I could role play a character in Modern Warfare because I hear that voice in my head. It doesn't mean anything but I can hear it.

In the example in my other post about "I love shoes" the game totally missed my meaning. I was role playing my character as angry and sacrastic but when Leliana reponds in exactly the wrong way it obliterates that role play for me and reminds me all I am doing is picking pre-set options and to get the right repsonse I have to make the right selection.

Have you ever played a table-top game?  A lot of role-playing is based around your ability to imagine something.

Your shoes example is one specific moment. And you can still role play it as a sarcastic line and tell yourself that Leliana simply didn't pick up on the sarcasm because she was so excited about shoes. I do that with Morrigan a lot. I "sarcastically" agree with her and role play it as if she misunderstood me.

That's impossible with Shepard and Hawke.

If you want sarcasm pick the sarcastic option.  Don't roleplay by picking the non-sarcastic response and then painting over it with "well, all my party is just socially inept except for ME"  In a table top game if you add sarcastic inflections to your character, your friends and your DM will pick up on it.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Narreneth wrote...

If you're in a university class taking a multiple choice final and choose A over B when B is the correct answer, your intent doesn't matter, nor does assuming the test misinterpreted what you meant.  You got it wrong.  Parameters define the actual possibility. 

You can roleplay with the parameters given in Dragon Age.  If you were to select the option that says "I love shoes" and Leliana goes for it, and that isn't what you meant by it:  pick the one that is sarcastic that doesn't say "I love shoes."  Her reaction will be the same.  The game will treat it the same.  DA:O may be a single player experience, but it is not so open-ended that your intent shapes the world.

Your test is a completely wrong analogy. DAO is an RPG. It allows you to roleplay the game. Yes, there are more limitations than in a tabletop game, but it's still very possible to role play.

You have some kind of hangup and giving every single dialogue line a very defined and one-purpose meaning. I feel sorry for you if you can't use your imagination.

[Sidney]

Nozybidaj wrote...

The situations you posted and your reactions to them are great examples of what Myst was trying to say earlier.  You are missing the whole point of it being a role-playing experience and instead wanting the game to feed you all the subtleties and emotions like you're watching a movie.

Take your first example with Leliana.  If I was that character and used the "I love shoes" response I wouldn't have seen it as the game misinterpreting my response or having the characters behave in a way out of synch with my intentions.  It would have simply been another example of Leliana acting like a doofus and reinforcing my characters opinion of her as my sarcasm went completely over her head.

So really the fact that the game has no responsivness to you is now a good thing. Why bother with responses and just have a "answer button" and then you can imagine a conversation and the NPC can imagine a reponse and it'll all work out because they just had an improper reaction.

Your answer also only works if Leli is a dope, which she's not and as a Bard she should be keenly aware of social cues and language. It might reinfirce your impression of her but that is the wrong impression for the game to give you as to who she actually is.

The NPC repsonse in this case is wrong in repsonse to me and wrong for her based on my intent. It is a total failure because the menu laoowed me to imagine a tone that didn't match what the devs wanted.