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[Utoryo]

(note: long post, but important parts are bolded+underlined so feel free to skip through)

The 'Timeline of Thedas' via Game Informer made me think back to the 'Notes of Arl Foreshadow' in DAO. For those who do not know: http://dragonage.wik..._Arl_Foreshadow (the first hint is clearly about DA:A)

Books to pursue for future endeavors.
Lost countenance: Ferelden to Orlesian Phrase Book
-Must not offend the potential landlords
Raising Spirits: Offsprings and the Fade
-Terrible two's indeed!
Forest Fall: Truth and Legend in the Search for Arlathan
-Survivors? poppycock!
The Origin of Theses: Knowing more than Everyone without Looking Like a Jackass
-Never get the time to read this. Maybe there's a stage play?

And then there are these two tidbits on the first page of the Timeline of Thedas article:

and these excerpts from BioWare's timeline contain several clues as to central themes and key locations you'll explore in the series' next entry.
(...)
981 Ancient Times: The hostility that festered between the Tevinter Imperium and the elves finally turned into open war. Armies of the Imperium surrounded the fabled elven city of Arlathan in a siege that lasted six long years… until the Magisters resorted to a horrifying blood ritual that sank Arlathan into the earth, destroying it utterly. The conquest of the elven kingdom was complete: All those who did not perish with their city were enslaved, their spirit crushed and their ancient culture destroyed forever.

And to complete the picture, here are a few extra quotes from the Arlathan: Part Two codex: http://dragonage.wik...athan:_Part_Two

You ask what happened to Arlathan? Sadly, we do not know. Even those of us who keep the ancient lore have no record of what truly happened. What we have are accounts of the days before the fall, and a fable of the whims of the gods.
When they breached the great city of Arlathan, our people, fearful of disease and loss of immortality, chose to flee rather than fight. With magic, demons, and even dragons at their behest, the Tevinter Imperium marched easily through Arlathan, destroying homes and galleries and amphitheaters that had stood for ages.
(...)
Whatever the case, Arlathan had fallen to the very humans our people had once considered mere pests. It is said that the Tevinter magisters used their great destructive power to force the very ground to swallow Arlathan whole, destroying eons of collected knowledge, culture, and art. The whole of elven lore left only to memory.

How much more obvious can you get? One of the key events in DA2 will be meeting a tribe of isolated elves that claim to have been amongst the last to flee Arlathan. Note the tense I'm using: it is fairly obvious those elves will be the immortal survivors themselves and not their descendants, as they fled mostly because they feared mortality. It's also possible you will find them 'sleeping' (see Arlathan;: Part One codex) in an old ruin, which would explain why you're the first to awaken them and why they are/were still immortal.

One of the key revelations from those elves will likely be what truly happened to Arlathan; what was that Tevinter blood ritual that 'forced the very ground' to swallow it? My guess, but this is speculative and not as likely to be correct, is that this legend and that of Fen'Harel tricking both the Elven Gods and the Old/Forgotten Gods is actually one and the same. This is hinted in the Fen'Harel codex entry: http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_Entry:_Fen'Harel:_The_Dread_Wolf

And after the destruction of Arlathan, when the gods could no longer hear our prayers, it is said that Fen'Harel spent centuries in a far corner of the earth, giggling madly and hugging himself in glee.

It is implied that all the gods could enter the mortal world before being tricked; that means the gods could literally have been inside Arlathan at the moment of the Imperium's blood ritual (and possibly other counteracting magic). Another possibility is that he arranged for their only way to the mortal world to be through Arlathan, destroying it in the process.

Exactly how Fen'Harel did it, who he truly is, what the consequences were and are, why the Magisters wanted to physically enter the Fade and the Golden City, did the Black City already exist before that, and why/how darkspawns were created... I don't know. I guess we'll still have to play the game and its further sequels

But there is still something I wonder above all: what forms did these so-called gods take in the mortal world back when they could enter it? I ask because Fen'Harel himself should be subject to the same rules and he's presumably still out there, lurking... Old Gods, for example, seem to always take the form of mortal dragons (at least when tainted as Archdemons) but cannot be killed simply by slaying the dragon. Presumably the other gods also need to take a mortal form of some kind, perhaps through possession.

You can see what I'm getting at: Flemeth... We'll see. Either way that's pure conjuncture whereas the Arlathan info seems clear as day.

Modifié par Utoryo, 16 juillet 2010 - 01:57 .

[Utoryo]

Oh, surprise, nobody likes long posts. Let's try to be more laconic then.



Big hints by Bioware we'll meet immortal elven survivors from Arlathan which probably became the Golden and/or the Black City. Gods possibly tricked into being there when it was destroyed/swallowed/sent into the fade/whatever.



Reason to be excited: this is totally proof that Hawke will become an immortal living god cliche by the end of the game </sarcasm>. Either that, or the plot's actually going to be pretty cool!

[Grommash94]

This is, all assuming,that there were actual Elven Gods, and not just Fade spirits/demons.



I personally believe that the Golden City is something different altogether. Fen'Harel's domain, the Maker, or, just some Fade spirit. Who didn't really like the idea of invading Tevinter armies.



But, if indeed all the gods exist in the DA world, and that, like Leliana says, "They may know the Maker by a different name" in regards to the elves, then this is a very interesting idea.

[ZtalkerRM]

Utoryo wrote...

Oh, surprise, nobody likes long posts. Let's try to be more laconic then.

Hey, I was at work. Don't blame me :innocent:

I thought the Dalish Elf origin was pretty cool. And when I heared of Arl Foreshadow, I too did that quest. 
It's cool to see Bioware will probably be expanding the Elven lore (Elvish sounds so...Blue Suede Shoes). In another thread, somebody mentioned Hawke will be searching for a Dwarven artifact as well.
This means we will probably venture deep into Elf and Dwarf history excellent!

[Grommash94]

filaminstrel wrote...

The bolding and underlining is a bit distracting really. I'd rather read through the whole thing than read through the half of it that's bolded and underlined.

There is an interesting parallel between the Fen'Harel story and the Chantry story of the darkspawn, though. The elven gods once walked among the mortal world and did battle with the "Forgotten Ones." Then Arlathan was destroyed and the elven gods cut contact. Then Fen'Harel tricked the Forgotten into "re-entering the abyss," thus the Forgotten were "betrayed" and Fen'Harel "sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People."

Elven Gods = Maker (including that they both used to have a direct contact with the people, but have since 'abandoned' them)
Forgotten ones = Old Gods
Re-entering the abyss = attempt to enter the Golden City
Sealed away = what happened to the Old Gods
Fen'Harel = ???

I believe the Chantry version has the Maker abandoning his people after Andaste dies, though, which is after the arise of the darkspawn.

It would be interesting if Arlathan was a sort of gateway, as you put it, and if it (well, its ruins) played a role in Tevinter's subsequent attempt to enter the Golden City.

There's also a very strong parallel to Norse mythology here, Fen'Harel being Loki.

As for whether there are remaining immortal Dalish... I got the sense that when they lost Arlathan, they lost that lore which reminded them how to maintain their immortality, if they ever had it. If its nature is in some kind of magical ritual, it might not be possible for them to simply commit to memory.

The Elven Gods dont abandon the elves though, Fen Harel traps them in Heaven (the fade perhaps? ). Then again, the elves could be wrong. I actually like your version tbh.

The Maker abandons Thedas twice; once after the worship of the Old Gods starts by the early denizens, and again after Andraste dies.

[Utoryo]

First of all, regarding the Maker: I think a lot of people are missing the point that the notion of a monotheistic god is a very delicate subject. If you treat the subject at all, then you can't deny it or you ****** off a lot of people, and you can't have one that's genuinely omnipresent and omnipotent because that kills all the complexity of the world through a literal Deus Ex Machina. Furthermore, that obviously pisses off agnostics and atheists and make them see your world as naive and pointless - while I'm not sure how high the percentage is in RPG gamers, it's probably higher than the national/worldwide average and certainly it must be even higher for RPG game developers.

David Gaider insisted many times that Dragon Age portrays the most important part of religion, Faith. If there was clear unambiguous evidence, then there would be no need for Faith, and then that's very different from what people are usually thinking about in modern religion. From this I gather that there will never be a straightforward answer to the existence of the Maker in DA for obvious reasons.

However, the existence of polytheistic gods with superhuman powers does not prevent the existence of a monotheistic god who created everything, aka the Maker. He would simply have created these gods along with everything else, perhaps even unintentionally (as in the link between physical and dream worlds according to the Chantry, which was a mistake iirc). Therefore there is no contradiction, and while we may hope for a clear answer to the 'gods', you're being slightly naive if you expect to have one on 'God' (or probably even on Andraste). It's also not strictly impossible that some events will forever have plausible explanations given by both the Chantry and non-believers so that the lore remains mysterious on purpose.

This is, all assuming,that there were actual Elven Gods, and not just Fade spirits/demons.

Fair enough, but actually those two are not contradictory either. There might be kinds of spirits and demons of a much greater power than those usually known (perhaps the word 'archdemon' is a hint, although I don't really think so). Personally, I still think it's very likely there truly were 'gods' but we'll see.

I thought the Dalish Elf origin was pretty cool.

Oh yeah, I actually left out one part of my original post because even I realised it was too long. In the Dalish origin, what Tamlen says when he sees/touches the mirror is very interesting. He claims to see a city, underground, filled by a great blackness. He then claims he is 'seen', and you hear mysterious sounds which later are reused for the 'voice' of the Archdemon. It certainly fits quite nicely with Arlathan being swallowed underground, doesn't it? But it still doesn't explain how it is 'underground' if it is in the Fade and what the difference is between the Golden City and the Black City.

It is actually very smart post... Perhaps you want to have a look at :

Cheers, I'm obviously far from convinced by the Flemeth theory (although it does recap some points nicely), but the Old God monograph is interesting and a well done summary overall. You note somewhere that the Elves see their gods as the creators; no, only two (iirc) of their gods is a creator. The rest are essentially teachers, and one of them was even originally mortal.

I do like my "Flemeth is Fen'Harel" theory, although there are huge gaps in it. As you said in that thread she is 'only' ~700 years old according to the legend, whereas Arlathan was destroyed ~2000 years ago. It's certainly noteworthy that Flemeth's tale is one of trickery, but she's actually the one being tricked. Also why would the one who trapped the old gods want to liberate Urthemiel?

Perhaps Fen'Harel would only possess Flemeth if he was genuinely impressed by her powers of trickery. It is said that Flemeth learned of Conobar's trickery through spirits, not demons, and that it is those spirits (plural again!) that killed Conobar. I could only imagine a Spirit of Justice to be willing to help her take revenge, but perhaps that is not how it happened, and she actually tricked spirits into killing Conobar. That would certainly be a twist... But we're getting pretty far-out on the probability curve here unfortunately.

It is said that Fen'Harel fled to a far corner of the earth and laughed there for centuries; the Wilds are certainly a far corner of the earth, and Morrigan claims that Flemeth 'met' her demon there. There's about 1300 years between those events; still 'centuries' I suppose, and obviously nobody sighted Fen'Harel since then, so it's possible. But once again not that likely. In the end, we really don't know much about either Flemeth or Fen'Harel, so any single theory anyone comes up with is very unlikely on its own.

As for whether there are remaining immortal Dalish... I got the sense that when they lost Arlathan, they lost that lore which reminded them how to maintain their immortality, if they ever had it. If its nature is in some kind of magical ritual, it might not be possible for them to simply commit to memory.

Well, the lore says they had no idea why they were immortal in the first place, just that contact with humans made them mortal. That could be a myth, lie, or simplification though. As to how they might have survived to this day without contact with humans, here's a *very* interesting codex entry: http://dragonage.wik...Entry:_Uthenera

[Grommash94]

SirShreK wrote...

Utoryo wrote...

First of all, regarding the Maker: I think a lot of people are missing the point that the notion of a monotheistic god is a very delicate subject. If you treat the subject at all, then you can't deny it or you ****** off a lot of people, and you can't have one that's genuinely omnipresent and omnipotent because that kills all the complexity of the world through a literal Deus Ex Machina. Furthermore, that obviously pisses off agnostics and atheists and make them see your world as naive and pointless - while I'm not sure how high the percentage is in RPG gamers, it's probably higher than the national/worldwide average and certainly it must be even higher for RPG game developers.

David Gaider insisted many times that Dragon Age portrays the most important part of religion, Faith. If there was clear unambiguous evidence, then there would be no need for Faith, and then that's very different from what people are usually thinking about in modern religion. From this I gather that there will never be a straightforward answer to the existence of the Maker in DA for obvious reasons.

However, the existence of polytheistic gods with superhuman powers does not prevent the existence of a monotheistic god who created everything, aka the Maker. He would simply have created these gods along with everything else, perhaps even unintentionally (as in the link between physical and dream worlds according to the Chantry, which was a mistake iirc). Therefore there is no contradiction, and while we may hope for a clear answer to the 'gods', you're being slightly naive if you expect to have one on 'God' (or probably even on Andraste). It's also not strictly impossible that some events will forever have plausible explanations given by both the Chantry and non-believers so that the lore remains mysterious on purpose.

This is, all assuming,that there were actual Elven Gods, and not just Fade spirits/demons.

Fair enough, but actually those two are not contradictory either. There might be kinds of spirits and demons of a much greater power than those usually known (perhaps the word 'archdemon' is a hint, although I don't really think so). Personally, I still think it's very likely there truly were 'gods' but we'll see.

I thought the Dalish Elf origin was pretty cool.

Oh yeah, I actually left out one part of my original post because even I realised it was too long. In the Dalish origin, what Tamlen says when he sees/touches the mirror is very interesting. He claims to see a city, underground, filled by a great blackness. He then claims he is 'seen', and you hear mysterious sounds which later are reused for the 'voice' of the Archdemon. It certainly fits quite nicely with Arlathan being swallowed underground, doesn't it? But it still doesn't explain how it is 'underground' if it is in the Fade and what the difference is between the Golden City and the Black City.

It is actually very smart post... Perhaps you want to have a look at :

Cheers, I'm obviously far from convinced by the Flemeth theory (although it does recap some points nicely), but the Old God monograph is interesting and a well done summary overall. You note somewhere that the Elves see their gods as the creators; no, only two (iirc) of their gods is a creator. The rest are essentially teachers, and one of them was even originally mortal.

I do like my "Flemeth is Fen'Harel" theory, although there are huge gaps in it. As you said in that thread she is 'only' ~700 years old according to the legend, whereas Arlathan was destroyed ~2000 years ago. It's certainly noteworthy that Flemeth's tale is one of trickery, but she's actually the one being tricked. Also why would the one who trapped the old gods want to liberate Urthemiel?

Perhaps Fen'Harel would only possess Flemeth if he was genuinely impressed by her powers of trickery. It is said that Flemeth learned of Conobar's trickery through spirits, not demons, and that it is those spirits (plural again!) that killed Conobar. I could only imagine a Spirit of Justice to be willing to help her take revenge, but perhaps that is not how it happened, and she actually tricked spirits into killing Conobar. That would certainly be a twist... But we're getting pretty far-out on the probability curve here unfortunately.

It is said that Fen'Harel fled to a far corner of the earth and laughed there for centuries; the Wilds are certainly a far corner of the earth, and Morrigan claims that Flemeth 'met' her demon there. There's about 1300 years between those events; still 'centuries' I suppose, and obviously nobody sighted Fen'Harel since then, so it's possible. But once again not that likely. In the end, we really don't know much about either Flemeth or Fen'Harel, so any single theory anyone comes up with is very unlikely on its own.

As for whether there are remaining immortal Dalish... I got the sense that when they lost Arlathan, they lost that lore which reminded them how to maintain their immortality, if they ever had it. If its nature is in some kind of magical ritual, it might not be possible for them to simply commit to memory.

Well, the lore says they had no idea why they were immortal in the first place, just that contact with humans made them mortal. That could be a myth, lie, or simplification though. As to how they might have survived to this day without contact with humans, here's a *very* interesting codex entry: http://dragonage.wik...Entry:_Uthenera

Nicely put... Very methodical.. I like that . Lets debate :D:D

Spirits did not kill Conobar according to the legends. It was Flemeth who killed him in possession by them/it. Later there was a demon though...

Elves collectively call their gods creators. I did not mean that all participated in creation. Sorry for that mis-understanding. I had that coming anyway.

Yes. You are right about the demon in Korcari wilds... I doubt if they would qualify as a corner but they are very much an option where Fen'harel went. I don't understand why you say that Flemeth is the one to be tricked.

I sincerely doubt that Flemeth is Fen'harel.... He is known as the dread WOLF for some reason I guess...

A note: Flemeth, in the memory of Morrigan, never left the wilds....

Actually spirits were the culprits. According to Morrigan, she asked the spirits for vengeance, and so they killed Conobar. According to Leliana, Flemeth was possed by a demon and went on a rampage herself.

[Altima Darkspells]

On a side note, who wants to bet that whatever the Magisters did at Arlathan permanantly tore the Veil open?

[Grommash94]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

On a side note, who wants to bet that whatever the Magisters did at Arlathan permanantly tore the Veil open?

Definitely. Unless, perhaps, they had ways to undo it.

[Utoryo]

Spirits did not kill Conobar according to the legends. It was Flemeth who killed him in possession by them/it. Later there was a demon though...

To be honest, I thought the same... until I rechecked it today

Here's the exact dialogue...
Morrigan: Osen was led off to a field and slain, left for dead. Flemeth spoke to the spirits and learned of the deed, and swore revenge.
Warden: She spoke to spirits? Or demons?
Morrigan: Spirits first, and 'twas they who slew Conobar. Flemeth did not turn to the demon until... much later.
Morrigan: Lord Conobar's allies chased Flemeth, you see. Chased her to the Wilds and there she hid. There she found the demon and he made her strong.

It *might* involve possession. But possession by spirits, rather than demons, and possibly by multiple ones at the same time, plus a demon later... that would be astonishingly unusual and complicated. On the other hand, the Codex entry on Flemeth does speak of possession: "In grief and rage, Flemeth worked a spell to summon a spirit into this world to wreak vengeance upon her husband. Vengeance, she received, but not as she planned. The spirit took possession of her, turning Flemeth into an abomination. A twisted, maddened creature, she slaughtered Conobar and all his men, and fled back into the Wilds." (and finally there's Leliana's version, which is the most extreme of the three: Flemeth wanted to summon a Fade demon, not a spirit, and instead it possessed her. it's probably the least reliable of the three however)

Let's assume Morrigan's tale is the most accurate. Then the question is why would spirits desire to interfere? And how exactly do you summon a spirit into the physical world? The Spirit of Justice was cast out from the Fade by mistake, and it happened from the inside, so that's very different. One possibility is that Flemeth actually managed to trick them somehow, but there's no evidence of that in DA:O. It's pure random speculation at this point.

Yes. You are right about the demon in Korcari wilds... I doubt if they would qualify as a corner but they are very much an option where Fen'harel went. I don't understand why you say that Flemeth is the one to be tricked.

Look at the map of Thedas; surely you agree the far south of the map is a far corner from the point of view of the Arlathan Forest in the north? As for Flemeth being tricked: in both versions of the tale, Conobar slays Osen by trickery.

I sincerely doubt that Flemeth is Fen'harel.... He is known as the dread WOLF for some reason I guess...

Hmmm. Well it might be noteworthy that Morrigan transforms into a wolf if you refuse the Dark Ritual, I suppose. It doesn't make much sense at all that Morrigan be Fen'Harel rather than Flemeth though. But it's probably worth pointing out that shape-shifting is always a form of trickery... But once again, we're entering theories that are sufficiently complicated that any single one of them is astonishingly unlikely to be what the writers have in mind.

[Grommash94]

I have always felt that Fen'harel is supposed to be a really conniving, immensely powerful being. Flemeth fits the second part, but she isn't THAT scheming, The Dark Ritual plan was intricate, but she would have been able to foresee Morrigan's betrayal (that is...unless she actually did).



I also, personally, do not think that a being as powerful as the Dread Wolf, who trapped both the Forgotten Ones and the Pantheon away, would have been so easily disposed of as Flemeth was at the hands of the Grey Warden. Shouldn't He have been able to just toss the Warden aside like they were nothing?



Maybe it is just part of his schemes. I doubt BioWare will ever let us know though...gah.

[Grommash94]

SirShreK wrote...

Utoryo wrote...

Spirits did not kill Conobar according to the legends. It was Flemeth who killed him in possession by them/it. Later there was a demon though...

To be honest, I thought the same... until I rechecked it today

Here's the exact dialogue...
Morrigan: Osen was led off to a field and slain, left for dead. Flemeth spoke to the spirits and learned of the deed, and swore revenge.
Warden: She spoke to spirits? Or demons?
Morrigan: Spirits first, and 'twas they who slew Conobar. Flemeth did not turn to the demon until... much later.
Morrigan: Lord Conobar's allies chased Flemeth, you see. Chased her to the Wilds and there she hid. There she found the demon and he made her strong.

It *might* involve possession. But possession by spirits, rather than demons, and possibly by multiple ones at the same time, plus a demon later... that would be astonishingly unusual and complicated. On the other hand, the Codex entry on Flemeth does speak of possession: "In grief and rage, Flemeth worked a spell to summon a spirit into this world to wreak vengeance upon her husband. Vengeance, she received, but not as she planned. The spirit took possession of her, turning Flemeth into an abomination. A twisted, maddened creature, she slaughtered Conobar and all his men, and fled back into the Wilds." (and finally there's Leliana's version, which is the most extreme of the three: Flemeth wanted to summon a Fade demon, not a spirit, and instead it possessed her. it's probably the least reliable of the three however)

Let's assume Morrigan's tale is the most accurate. Then the question is why would spirits desire to interfere? And how exactly do you summon a spirit into the physical world? The Spirit of Justice was cast out from the Fade by mistake, and it happened from the inside, so that's very different. One possibility is that Flemeth actually managed to trick them somehow, but there's no evidence of that in DA:O. It's pure random speculation at this point.

Yes. You are right about the demon in Korcari wilds... I doubt if they would qualify as a corner but they are very much an option where Fen'harel went. I don't understand why you say that Flemeth is the one to be tricked.

Look at the map of Thedas; surely you agree the far south of the map is a far corner from the point of view of the Arlathan Forest in the north? As for Flemeth being tricked: in both versions of the tale, Conobar slays Osen by trickery.

I sincerely doubt that Flemeth is Fen'harel.... He is known as the dread WOLF for some reason I guess...

Hmmm. Well it might be noteworthy that Morrigan transforms into a wolf if you refuse the Dark Ritual, I suppose. It doesn't make much sense at all that Morrigan be Fen'Harel rather than Flemeth though. But it's probably worth pointing out that shape-shifting is always a form of trickery... But once again, we're entering theories that are sufficiently complicated that any single one of them is astonishingly unlikely to be what the writers have in mind.

I was of the opinion that spirits, unless seriously fortified will not be able to enter mortal realm. Only demons have done that, and then they are the wraith like. I sincerely doubt that a spirit of Justice will help Flemeth, especially by coming in person. I would vote for possession though.

I don't think tricking spirits is so simple. You first have to go to the fade (which she was perhaps capable of) and then convince the spirit to take revenge. Spirits are EXTREMELY dis-inclined to do a mortal's bidding while Demons leap at the opportunity.

I have never seen a SPIRIT (an untainted one) manifest in the mortal realm. It ahs to be a really powerful one for that one trick.

Thus I choose the second tale in the codex.

Oh I don't know. Justice would probably really hate someone like Conobar...and we haven't really seen evidence that they don't have the power to appear in the mortal realm. I have no doubt that someone like Justice has the power of say a Sloth/maybe even a Desire Demon. They aren't too interested in that, except for, perhaps, the most important of cases.

Demons leap at it mostly because they want a way into the mortal realm. And if Flemeth were to encounter one in the fade, it would most likely try to take her over right there and then, instead of keeping its end of the bargain.

[Grommash94]

Grommash94 wrote...

SirShreK wrote...

Utoryo wrote...

Spirits did not kill Conobar according to the legends. It was Flemeth who killed him in possession by them/it. Later there was a demon though...

To be honest, I thought the same... until I rechecked it today

Here's the exact dialogue...
Morrigan: Osen was led off to a field and slain, left for dead. Flemeth spoke to the spirits and learned of the deed, and swore revenge.
Warden: She spoke to spirits? Or demons?
Morrigan: Spirits first, and 'twas they who slew Conobar. Flemeth did not turn to the demon until... much later.
Morrigan: Lord Conobar's allies chased Flemeth, you see. Chased her to the Wilds and there she hid. There she found the demon and he made her strong.

It *might* involve possession. But possession by spirits, rather than demons, and possibly by multiple ones at the same time, plus a demon later... that would be astonishingly unusual and complicated. On the other hand, the Codex entry on Flemeth does speak of possession: "In grief and rage, Flemeth worked a spell to summon a spirit into this world to wreak vengeance upon her husband. Vengeance, she received, but not as she planned. The spirit took possession of her, turning Flemeth into an abomination. A twisted, maddened creature, she slaughtered Conobar and all his men, and fled back into the Wilds." (and finally there's Leliana's version, which is the most extreme of the three: Flemeth wanted to summon a Fade demon, not a spirit, and instead it possessed her. it's probably the least reliable of the three however)

Let's assume Morrigan's tale is the most accurate. Then the question is why would spirits desire to interfere? And how exactly do you summon a spirit into the physical world? The Spirit of Justice was cast out from the Fade by mistake, and it happened from the inside, so that's very different. One possibility is that Flemeth actually managed to trick them somehow, but there's no evidence of that in DA:O. It's pure random speculation at this point.

Yes. You are right about the demon in Korcari wilds... I doubt if they would qualify as a corner but they are very much an option where Fen'harel went. I don't understand why you say that Flemeth is the one to be tricked.

Look at the map of Thedas; surely you agree the far south of the map is a far corner from the point of view of the Arlathan Forest in the north? As for Flemeth being tricked: in both versions of the tale, Conobar slays Osen by trickery.

I sincerely doubt that Flemeth is Fen'harel.... He is known as the dread WOLF for some reason I guess...

Hmmm. Well it might be noteworthy that Morrigan transforms into a wolf if you refuse the Dark Ritual, I suppose. It doesn't make much sense at all that Morrigan be Fen'Harel rather than Flemeth though. But it's probably worth pointing out that shape-shifting is always a form of trickery... But once again, we're entering theories that are sufficiently complicated that any single one of them is astonishingly unlikely to be what the writers have in mind.

I was of the opinion that spirits, unless seriously fortified will not be able to enter mortal realm. Only demons have done that, and then they are the wraith like. I sincerely doubt that a spirit of Justice will help Flemeth, especially by coming in person. I would vote for possession though.

I don't think tricking spirits is so simple. You first have to go to the fade (which she was perhaps capable of) and then convince the spirit to take revenge. Spirits are EXTREMELY dis-inclined to do a mortal's bidding while Demons leap at the opportunity.

I have never seen a SPIRIT (an untainted one) manifest in the mortal realm. It ahs to be a really powerful one for that one trick.

Thus I choose the second tale in the codex.

Oh I don't know. Justice would probably really hate someone like Conobar...and we haven't really seen evidence that they don't have the power to appear in the mortal realm. I have no doubt that someone like Justice has the power of say a Sloth/maybe even a Desire Demon. They aren't too interested in interactions with Mortals though, except for, perhaps, the most important of cases.

Demons leap at it mostly because they want a way into the mortal realm. And if Flemeth were to encounter one in the fade, it would most likely try to take her over right there and then, instead of keeping its end of the bargain.

Erm...my bad, quoted my own post instead of editing it =.=

Modifié par Grommash94, 16 juillet 2010 - 11:35 .

[Utoryo]

So, a few clarifications on the Fen'Harel theory given the posts above: think about Wynne's situation. She is basically possessed by a benevolent spirit, but she doesn't truly understand that spirit, its reasons, or even its true influence. She merely believes it must be a 'Spirit of Faith' but that's conjuncture at best.

There's little reason for Fen'Harel to completely reveal himself to Flemeth. And the link between the two doesn't have to be absolute either... To him, she is merely a tool. And so would be Morrigan. I do not believe that Morrigan wants to kill Flemeth only to protect herself; it is hinted several times that Morrigan genuinely *wants* Flemeth to die even before she 'discovers' what her plans are (e.g. "I hear the peace of the grave is eternal" with Flemeth replying roughly "I hope your child treat you the same one day" before leaving the Wilds).

I would not be surprised if Flemeth told her that if she died, the demon would pass on to her (obviously desirable from Morrigan's perspective given the great power this would give her without apparent loss of mental control) - but didn't tell her that her memories would do so as well if she did it through her possession ritual. By killing Flemeth, you destroy the human Flemeth, but not whatever inhabits her (which therefore has little reason to scheme too hard to protect her), which would now search the world to find Morrigan and possess her. Once again, while logical, this is rather unlikely on its own but gives an idea of the kinds of theories that must be considered.

Demons leap at it mostly because they want a way into the mortal realm. And if Flemeth were to encounter one in the fade, it would most likely try to take her over right there and then, instead of keeping its end of the bargain.

Desire Demons you meet always insist that is their ways to always honour their deals; they will try to trick you on the terms of the deal, but they are definitely bound by it. And what they care about is the mortal's physical form; simply meeting the spirit form in the Fade is not enough. That does bring up an interesting question regarding the Magisters physically entering the Fade though: wouldn't they be exceptionally vulnerable to possession by demons while in there?

That leads me to an intriguing thought: let's assume the Golden City was a physical city cast out into the fade. Logically demons could not interact with it in their spiritual form, and neither could humans in their dream form. Only mortals physically entering the Fade could... but once they enter it, if they are possessed by a demon, you get into the unusual situation where a demon gains a physical form in the Fade and could also interact with the Golden City, changing it as they see fit and turning it black. A fun thought, but doesn't fit so nicely with the 'Old Gods' premise (unless they themselves were a superior kind of demon) - once again not very likely individually.

You could just as well say it's naive to expect there to ever be a straightforward answer to the existence of a pantheon of deities. It's not like polytheism doesn't still exist in the modern world. They operate on faith as well, because there's no provable evidence for any religion. And they don't necessarily include a monotheistic overgod in their dogma, nor do monotheistic religions include superhuman demigods in theirs.

I disagree completely. You're missing the key point: monotheism is a sensitive subject that risks pissing off a lot of people, whereas polytheism isn't. It's a typical theme in stories and RPGs because you'd be hard-pressed to offend anyone. A polytheist doesn't care that those aren't literally his gods, and he certainly doesn't care that there *might* be a monotheistic god if there is no clear evidence and it relies on Faith. And a monotheist wouldn't be offended by lesser demigods having been created by their god to guide mortals, or on needing Faith to believe in the monotheistic creator god. Finally, it certainly wouldn't disturb an atheist or an agnostic. This is easily the least offensive yet most interesting approach (which doesn't mean Bioware is going down that route, but it does make it much more likely given the circumstances).

[Utoryo]

SirShreK wrote...
Morrigan never bargains with demons. She would NEVER willingly become an abomination. Connor story is proof of that.

But it has nothing to do with 'bargaining'.

Consider this from Flemeth's point of view: she needs Morrigan not to be suspicious of her motives. After all, she is hundreds of years old and there are no other visible daughters of her - why a daughter now? One possibility is that she tells Morrigan that after hundreds of years her power is weakening and that eventually she will die, and that eventually she must become the new Witch of the Wilds with the demon's help.

How else could you explain the many times Morrigan implies she wants Flemeth to die before knowing her secret? And more importantly, how could you explain the very last sentence in this banter with Leliana?
"Morrigan: Of course. You think me mother would let me go without telling me all the stories of her youth?
Leliana: My mother told me stories too. She was the one who kindled my love of the old tales and legends.
Morrigan: Hmph. my mother's stories curdled my blood and haunted my dreams. No little girl wants to hear about the Wilder men her mother took to her bed, using them till they were spent, then killing them. No little girl wants to be told that this is also expected of her, once she comes of age."

It's hard to say exactly what Morrigan was told by Flemeth, and what more she discovers in the first grimoire if anything, but it would be extremely naive to assume that she knows nothing of it when first leaving with you.

It is possible that either the elves or the Magisters actually cast the entire city into fade. But then you can't explain Tamlen's dialogue.

I know, that is indeed a big problem. One theory is that there was counteracting magic at the same time, and that this was actually Fen'Harel's treachery: each of the spells on its own would have accomplished one set of gods' goals, but the two together would neutralise them all. Arlathan would literally have been divided in two, Golden and Black. Of course this makes it impossible that the Golden City itself was 'blackened' simply by contact with the Magisters so we'd need another explanation for that. None of should be taken too seriously anyway...

I did a piece on Arlathan last night. You might want to have a look at that.. could be interesting.

There are some good things in there but I think you're getting carried away in your elf->human->darkspawn speculation. Even if the first link existed, which I'd tend to believe, the second one would not be of the same kind, nor is it exclusive to humans even if it was true that they were the first.

[Lucy Glitter]

It's been discussed to death, Arl's notes.



I think it's set in stone there is some Arlathan in DA2. The concept wallpaper has one area with an old elven/human statue that was in the dalish origin - it was hinted to be from the time of Arlathan.

[Utoryo]

Fair enough, although I didn't notice much discussion since DA2's announcement, and I'm not sure many people made the connection with the elves being able to go into a kind of 'deep hibernation' mode allowing you to meet actual survivors rather than just their descendants.

[Lucy Glitter]

Now that would be cool, like a living version of the ghost woman? Eee!

Hang on, I will get a pic comparison going on for you:

Statue of Elven God found in Dalish Origin


Statue in DA2 concept art


The first statue is apparently of Falon'Din. The second? No idea. As you can see, though, they are of the same style. 

(ps didn't mean to insult you, Utoryo, apologies)

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 17 juillet 2010 - 10:21 .