372 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

tmelange wrote...

However, it is equally valid for a female to play a female character and say: Wait a minute. Why do I have to play as if I have no common sense? Why do I have to be the over-ripe piece of eyecandy that has no ability to choose to wear something that might better protect me but will also hide my "assets"? I want my charcater to make as much sense to *me* as a male character makes to him. Because the developers are often objectifying the female character for the benefit of male players and the design is imposed upon the female player (rather than it being her choice to clothe or unclothe), it becomes an issue of gender inequality and sexism.

IMHO, I don't think you should discount one type of analysis in favor of another or spend too much time arguing that men are the real victims in the equation.

You almost wrote my answer yourself:):

Of course, I suppose men could complain about design choices and sexism too. Why do most male heroes have to be tall, good-looking, straight, white, slim, muscular, American-ish etc. etc. Lots to argue about. LOL I guess a game developer can only do what it thinks will sell at the end of the day.

Exactly. If I want to play like I really am, why can´t I play an average, longhaired guy without any special hero skills?

And, if I want to create a fantasy character, WHY am I not allowed to be an invincible badass while wearing muscleshirt and stringtanga?
I mean, women can kick ass in nothing but a bikini. A man needs armor not to get hurt.
I could argue that this shows men as weaklings who are totally inferior to women, and my point would be not more, but not less either, valid than yours.

[Saibh]

Shiroukai wrote...

I hope Bioware will make some of the female armour look like something like this.

I really like the color...and *gasp* her hair! Love that.

[WingsandRings]

Man, I hate it when I see that coveted "Bioware" icon below a thread and hope I'll get some real, awesome info on whether we'll see LadyHawke, only to have it be (an admittedly justified) pointing out that the writers don't design the armor.



I didn't see that much wrong with the armor in DA:O. Granted, the Dalish elves showed midriff, but I couldn't complain about the sexism of women wearing skirt armor since...um...Zevran did too. Ultimately, it was one of the better non-sexist examples of female armor. Especially the chainmail/plate armor were all just as covered on the ladies as on the guys.



And I don't see why we should get upset about "female only" armor. I mean, there wasn't dwarf only or elf only armor, even when it made no logical sense for the armor that fit Oghren to also fit Sten.

[tmelange]

Tirigon wrote...

tmelange wrote...


IMHO, I think you have to be a bit careful with the female gaming stat from that report. The gender breakdown is not offered by category, so where you can perhaps have a high percentage of females playing something like the Sims, you might have a much smaller (or negligible) percentage playing in the shooter category or even the RPG category. I think there's an outdated perception of females (and old people, lol) as "casual" gamers, so an argument that might be valid for the gaming industry as a whole might not be as relevant to an individual video game genre.

That said, with over 40% of the overall gaming market consisting of women, it would seem to make economic sense for those previously male-targeted game genres to figure out a way to entice females to play their games. There is little profit to be gained in this day and age in entrenchment. An eye towards revamping certain design choices might go a long way in doing that, without alienating the "core" audience.

Many women are playing RPGs. I think (admittedly i´m not sure though) that even MORE women than men play RPGs.

In the shooter genre, the prejudice of mainly male players is (so far) true, I believe. however, there are more women playing shooters than you might believe, even in pro clans.
Unfortunately, many shooter players are stupid sexist idiots (funnily the kind you think I am, but you´re wrong:P) who ask every female player to show pictures of their boobs, so many female players do not admit they´re female but use male nicknames in order not to be annoyed by idiots.
The same is true in the MMORPG genre.
Last but not least, I have recently read an article by a woman who played shooters in a female-only pro clan and she found it discriminating that people make differences between male and female players because as gamers, they are all one group and it doesn´t matter if the soldier in a shooter is directed by a man or a woman.

This is quite an important notion, imo. After all you don´t know who the other really is. I could be a woman myself and you wouldn´t know........:innocent:

I always cringe when developers make statements about choices that are made to cater to that so-called "majority" of straight, white, young, male gamers, or choices that were not made because the group it caters to is somehow in the minority. I think the number of female gamers (and other percieved economic minorities) has exponentially increased and changed across genres from the time when those statements (as blanket justifications) were true -- and continues to change very quickly.

I think as much as gaming wants to move into the social stratosphere, developers have to find a way to make their product as inclusive and choice-driven as possible. The social backdrop has a canvass that reads "everyone wants to particpate, all together, all the time." Adhereing to dated notions of market segmentation is not conducive to the social strata. No one wants to see a community contest that is only available to Americans, or a Facebook-type app that is only accessible to X. One would think an RPG would be the type of game that could be the most inclusive of everyone's choices, yet I think the project budgets are perhaps still designed with old paradigms in mind.

I think choice as it drives the ability of a person to feel full participation and representation rules everything in the social strata. For instance, I would remove (some of) the multiple origin backgrounds in DAO in favor of different body types (the ability to have long hair or short; big boobs or small) and different armor options. *shrug* But that's just IMHO.

Which brings this all back around to why people want to see fem!Hawke and are concerned about what she will be wearing.

[OldMan91]

Yes! Time for Hawke to wear chainmail like this:

[Finiffa]

OldMan91 wrote...

Yes! Time for Hawke to wear chainmail like this:

Thanks, now I gotta clean my screen coz there is coffee all over it

[WingsandRings]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

[Grommash94]

OldMan91 wrote...

Yes! Time for Hawke to wear chainmail like this:

...My...my eyes. 

[Quercus]

OldMan91 wrote...

Yes! Time for Hawke to wear chainmail like this:

That's not chainmail, that's plate. And it seems to be protecting the important parts well enough.

[WingsandRings]

Shiroukai wrote...

OldMan91 wrote...

Yes! Time for Hawke to wear chainmail like this:

That's not chainmail, that's plate. And it seems to be protecting the important parts well enough.

Yeah, intestines and lungs...who needs em??

[Tirigon]

OldMan91 wrote...

Yes! Time for Hawke to wear chainmail like this:

If someone makes a mod for this, I´ll so get it and put everyone into it.

[Tirigon]

tmelange wrote...


I think choice as it drives the ability of a person to feel full participation and representation rules everything in the social strata. For instance, I would remove (some of) the multiple origin backgrounds in DAO in favor of different body types (the ability to have long hair or short; big boobs or small) and different armor options. *shrug* But that's just IMHO.

Which brings this all back around to why people want to see fem!Hawke and are concerned about what she will be wearing.

Unfortunately, many people want cinematic stuff instead of more content. I would totally prefer if we had much more conversations and romances and origins and everything, even if that means no voiceacting.
But such is not how it works today.

Do you play on PC? If yes, I can suggest you the mods "Realistic Look" and "Natural bodies", these offer various body types. At the moment, only the races have different ones, that is all humans will still have the same body type,  but at least you can choose what type it´ll be.

There was also a mod project here on the site that should allow full customisation. Last time I looked it was still in Beta, but that was a few months ago. You should check it out.

Modifié par Tirigon, 18 juillet 2010 - 07:13 .

[Truncated Flea]

Tirigon wrote...
For the hippies, the right to show skin (or to be completely naked:innocent:) WAS freedom, yes. Of course, choice matters.
Skimpy armor in games WOULD be sexist if the heroine was forced to wear it by a man. Alas, that is not so. She wears it because she wants.

Female characters are not real, with consistent thought processes independent of their creators. They are written by people with biases and social conditioning and certain demographics to target. Of course a woman designed to be sexy will be written as wanting to be that way, rather than being forced into it. That doesn't negate the fact that the choice was made with, as I said, certain social conditioning and certain demogaphics in mind.

Choices like these aren't made in a vacuum. I agree that a woman should have the right to dress how she likes, but the fact is, in video games the majority of female characters seem to be designed to titillate men. They're not created as complex beings who show their freedom and independence by wearing a chainmail bikini, they're often designed with the chainmail bikini in mind and then moulded around that. And of course they're going to be designed as "badass independent woman" rather than "oppressed victim".

And as a disclaimer: I have no problem with having sexy women in video games. What I do have a problem with is stuff like the stupid chainmail bikini, or women running around in dangerous situations in high heels (ME2 springs to mind for this one). There's absolutely no reason for that to be in the game other than to make the woman "sexy", and I find it more off-putting than appealing because it's so disgustingly obvious.

[okiness]

Screenshots? Beh, I wish they'd make a trailer splitting the perspective between Lord and Lady Hawke, now we only have the choice of gender, you think they could pimp both genders in a trailer. Screenshots mean nill to me. But oh well, I do find this default Hawke sexy so it's...some form of consolation.

You know speaking of armor made of words, you know they have artwork made of words. I call for an armor made of words, made with loving care and involving many inside jokes I can stare at while the majority of my characters skin shows through the cracks. Insert funny emoticon

edit:

pointless armor FTW. Hey it's got a cape so I'm okay with it xD

Modifié par okiness, 18 juillet 2010 - 07:19 .

[Tirigon]

Truncated Flea wrote...

 but the fact is, in video games the majority of female characters seem to be designed to titillate men.

If that is so, then why do they not wear beautiful dresses while in safe places and beautiful plate armor like Moonwing´s Ivory tower?
After all, that´s much more attractive than a girl looking like a lady of negotiable affection whose offensive IN -YA -FACE Sexiness is disgusting.

[tmp7704]

Tirigon wrote...

Truncated Flea wrote...

 but the fact is, in video games the majority of female characters seem to be designed to titillate men.

If that is so, then why do they not wear beautiful dresses while in safe places and beautiful plate armor like Moonwing´s Ivory tower?
After all, that´s much more attractive than a girl looking like a lady of negotiable affection whose offensive IN -YA -FACE Sexiness is disgusting.

Don't mistake your personal preferences for that of general public. If the "offensive" in your face sexiness was widely found disgusting, you wouldn't see any of it in the media and the hookers on streets would dress completely different than they do simply not to scare off the potential customers.

[tmelange]

Tirigon wrote...

tmelange wrote...


I think choice as it drives the ability of a person to feel full participation and representation rules everything in the social strata. For instance, I would remove (some of) the multiple origin backgrounds in DAO in favor of different body types (the ability to have long hair or short; big boobs or small) and different armor options. *shrug* But that's just IMHO.

Which brings this all back around to why people want to see fem!Hawke and are concerned about what she will be wearing.

Unfortunately, many people want cinematic stuff instead of more content. I would totally prefer if we had much more conversations and romances and origins and everything, even if that means no voiceacting.
But such is not how it works today.

Do you play on PC? If yes, I can suggest you the mods "Realistic Look" and "Natural bodies", these offer various body types. At the moment, only the races have different ones, that is all humans will still have the same body type,  but at least you can choose what type it´ll be.

There was also a mod project here on the site that should allow full customisation. Last time I looked it was still in Beta, but that was a few months ago. You should check it out.

I haven't yet read anything to convince me that TPTB know what the so-called "majority" of fans want. I'm probably hanging in the wrong places, but everyone that I interact with wants content and choices over cinematics. It seems to me that only the out-of-industry reviewers (the one that don't actually play the whole game) are impressed with cinematics.

I played a JRPG a couple of years ago...I forget what it was called...but it was literally HOURS of fights cut with cinematic scenes. I literally couldn't understand what was going on, and don't even remember the name of the game or what happened. (ETA...Lost Years? Was that what it was called...? Aha, Lost Odyssey...) I don't know about anyone else but for me, cinematics are great to watch once. I don't play or re-play a game for them.

I'm currently playing DAO on xbox. I need to buy a new laptop, so I won't be buying the PC version (and enjoying the mods) until I do that. However, I'm not one who worries too much about looking realistic in-game. As long as I look good I'm happy. I sort of like being a badass warrior-chick sex object in-game. For sure, no one will be paying me to be running around in heels and a chainmail bikini in real life. LOL

Modifié par tmelange, 18 juillet 2010 - 07:45 .

[Tirigon]

tmp7704 wrote...

Don't mistake your personal preferences for that of general public. If the "offensive" in your face sexiness was widely found disgusting, you wouldn't see any of it in the media and the hookers on streets would dress completely different than they do simply not to scare off the potential customers.

This is true, I have my own opinion on almost everything.

[Tirigon]

tmelange wrote...


I haven't yet read anything to convince me that TPTB know what the so-called "majority" of fans want. I'm probably hanging in the wrong places, but everyone that I interact with wants content and choices over cinematics. It seems to me that only the out-of-industry reviewers (the one that don't actually play the whole game) are impressed with cinematics.

The reviewers are impressed, and the people spending their money for games like Call of Duty. At the moment these are the majority of gamers, as can be seen by the huge success of CoD.

[tmelange]

Tirigon wrote...

tmelange wrote...


I haven't yet read anything to convince me that TPTB know what the so-called "majority" of fans want. I'm probably hanging in the wrong places, but everyone that I interact with wants content and choices over cinematics. It seems to me that only the out-of-industry reviewers (the one that don't actually play the whole game) are impressed with cinematics.

The reviewers are impressed, and the people spending their money for games like Call of Duty. At the moment these are the majority of gamers, as can be seen by the huge success of CoD.

I've never played (or payed any attention to) CoD or its ilk. So the shooters are heavy on cinematics? I suppose they would need something to take the place of dialogue options? I still can't imagine that the cinematics are driving sales, rather than the shooting and ability to play at war. I wonder if there is a shooter that failed because of lack of cinematics...

Modifié par tmelange, 18 juillet 2010 - 07:52 .

[Addai]

Tirigon wrote...

Truncated Flea wrote...

 but the fact is, in video games the majority of female characters seem to be designed to titillate men.

If that is so, then why do they not wear beautiful dresses while in safe places and beautiful plate armor like Moonwing´s Ivory tower?
After all, that´s much more attractive than a girl looking like a lady of negotiable affection whose offensive IN -YA -FACE Sexiness is disgusting.

It's the right of male players to dress NPCs up in ridiculous get-ups or nothing at all.  I, um, uh.. have been known to do this to Alistair on occasion. 

I just ask of a game that the female body models be something close to a realistic ideal and that practicality as well as aesthetics be considered in the armor choices.  Modders can fill in the more extreme ends of the spectrum for those so inclined.

I happen to think that it's great that there's sexiness in games, though I prefer an understated, realistic, tasteful presentation of it.  As an example, I didn't like the nude mods in DAO because it emphasized that my PCs' breasts never moved.  They stood high and tall like Mount Olympus no matter what she was doing.  Whereas I think both men and women could agree that a little movement is sexy and that's an example of a subtle thing where you can have "sexy" that is still appealing to a large mainstream of tastes.  It's when games cross over into porn aesthetics that it starts to feel like a guys' club that I'm peeping in on.  (Yes I do know some women like porn, no need to point it out.)

Modifié par Addai67, 18 juillet 2010 - 07:55 .

[OldMan91]

As TV Tropes quotes wisely from another source:

"A male rogue will wear dark leather armor with little metal studs all over it, because nothing says "stealth" like a bunch of glittering bits of metal all over the place. Ladies in the same profession lean towards the skin-tight catsuit look, because the first step in being stealthy is apparently to make sure every able-bodied man within a hundred paces is staring at you with his mouth slightly open...

And we come to the conclusion that:

It's nice to see that when it comes to apparel, roleplaying games have a lot of equality: Everybody dresses like an idiot."

[Koffeegirl]

tmelange wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

tmelange wrote...


I haven't yet read anything to convince me that TPTB know what the so-called "majority" of fans want. I'm probably hanging in the wrong places, but everyone that I interact with wants content and choices over cinematics. It seems to me that only the out-of-industry reviewers (the one that don't actually play the whole game) are impressed with cinematics.

The reviewers are impressed, and the people spending their money for games like Call of Duty. At the moment these are the majority of gamers, as can be seen by the huge success of CoD.

I've never played (or payed any attention to) CoD or its ilk. So the shooters are heavy on cinematics? I suppose they would need something to take the place of dialogue options? I still can't imagine that the cinematics are driving sales, rather than the shooting and ability to play at war. I wonder if there is a shooter that failed because of lack of cinematics...

I always thought COD was big because of the multiplayer option. Most people I know who love COD love it due to the multiplayer and XBOX LIVE. I think Graphics(not necessarily cinematics)  are big in those games because when you play multiplayer and when you play COD in HD you can better see targets that may be far away that you are shooting at. I know people who are unsure about buying COD Black Ops until they find out more about the multiplayer option. that said, I don't think you can really compare a game like COD to DA because the charactersitics of the  game are what makes those games so successful and so different. I personally have never played COD, as I prefer RPGS. I like   story and choices like DA. Many people I know who love COD also love DA , but for different reasons. People again seem to like DA for the story and choices, while still loving COD for its multiplayer shooter gamplay.

[Caparzofpc]

Ok, it's not very a fantasy armour, but for a woman warrior, i like this type or armour. Simple, strong and good looking.

[Tirigon]

OldMan91 wrote...

As TV Tropes quotes wisely from another source:

"A male rogue will wear dark leather armor with little metal studs all over it, because nothing says "stealth" like a bunch of glittering bits of metal all over the place. Ladies in the same profession lean towards the skin-tight catsuit look, because the first step in being stealthy is apparently to make sure every able-bodied man within a hundred paces is staring at you with his mouth slightly open...

And we come to the conclusion that:

It's nice to see that when it comes to apparel, roleplaying games have a lot of equality: Everybody dresses like an idiot."

Well, I do not find much on TV Tropes funny.

But this is an exception. And true, indeed.