372 réponses à ce sujet

[tmelange]

Saibh wrote...

Oh, when it comes to games like WoW, I accept that's how the women are going to look. But in any BioWare game, it seems to me that they always have the utmost respect for women and realize that women make up a damn big percentage in their market.

My entire, whole, beginning point was that it's offensive when it happens, and it is, but I don't boycott the game. But Tirigon went so far as to say it was more "realistic" and that it made sense and that all female warriors should dress like that. That's where I lost my marbles.

I would think it a hard proposition to argue that the way most female warriors in games are armored is realistic or makes any sense from a practical standpoint. LOL I mean, I'd rather a guy just say his interest is in pixeled boobs and ass than to try to argue as if there is a rational basis for objectification.

However, I do think female gamers should continue to raise this issue and to make our presence known in the marketplace. I commend Bioware and other game developers for expanding their target marketing outside of the typical box and showing respect for preceived minority market segments as they are represented in their games. I mean, the ****** and ass quotient can always be met by the random NPC pre-pubescent slave girl/exotic dancer/prostitute wandering around. I think it should be fairly safe to present the female warriors in some sort of realistic light.

Modifié par tmelange, 18 juillet 2010 - 04:13 .

[Tirigon]

LiquidGrape wrote...

I think Saibh is right. This does smell like latent blatant sexism.

No mate, you´re just in fail mode and don´t understand anything. I am totally against sexism and I´m not in the slightiest bit sexist. I am only against Feminists because these are the true sexists and they suck and noone likes them.

The problem is that today women whine about being discriminated against when, in fact, women have equal rights with men, sometimes even MORE. It´s men who are constantly being discriminated against. However, many women, among them all feminists, don´t understand that and do not want equality but superiority. So they whine and cry and make themselves ridiculous and accuse people of sexism, and I only sit there and laugh because I´m having so much fun.

Seriously, you should be happy women are allowed to be warriors in DAO at all. In medieval Europe (= the inspiration for Thedas) women were not allowed to do so.

Don´t misunderstand me, I´m glad women are portrayed as equals in Dragon Age, but it is something you shouldn´t expect in a medieval setting.
So please stop whining.

And don´t come with "realism". If we´re realistic, female players will sit in camp and cook for the hero and pleasure him at night. Cos that´s what life for women in medieval Europe was like.
Again, I am glad this has changed today. But it was like that back then, and history doesn´t change just like that.

[Tirigon]

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

[tmp7704]

Tirigon wrote...

I wonder, if this is the case, why don´t modern day soldiers wear plate armor?

It may have something to do with modern ammunition being able to pierce things easier than swords could, which forces designers to create thicker armour to protect crucial area that's the torso, while leaving limbs exposed. (otherwise the full package of such quality armour would be simply too heavy to wear)  There's also issue with how complicated the plate armour was to put on -- all these separate pieces and straps took time and required assistance, and both are luxuries soldiers often don't have. On the other hand, there is some research and development being done regarding powered armours/exoskeletons which can be to some extent considered modern plate armour that "carries itself" making the weight less of issue.

Also, the video doesn´t show falling down in combat. Getting up when you know you´re going to fall and stand up again to show something is one thing - getting hit with a pike and standing up while some guy is trying to drag your helmet off and stabb you to death is a bit more difficult.

Honestly, this isn't very good argument now, is it? I'd say getting your head cut off makes it even more difficult to stand up afterwards than "just" being skewered on a pike, but it has nothing to do with how much armour you're wearing. And when you have some guy on top of you then you won't get up easily without armour, either -- just watch any wrestling match for example of that.

[Saibh]

Tirigon wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

I think Saibh is right. This does smell like latent blatant sexism.

No mate, you´re just in fail mode and don´t understand anything. I am totally against sexism and I´m not in the slightiest bit sexist. I am only against Feminists because these are the true sexists and they suck and noone likes them.

The problem is that today women whine about being discriminated against when, in fact, women have equal rights with men, sometimes even MORE. It´s men who are constantly being discriminated against. However, many women, among them all feminists, don´t understand that and do not want equality but superiority. So they whine and cry and make themselves ridiculous and accuse people of sexism, and I only sit there and laugh because I´m having so much fun.

Seriously, you should be happy women are allowed to be warriors in DAO at all. In medieval Europe (= the inspiration for Thedas) women were not allowed to do so.

Don´t misunderstand me, I´m glad women are portrayed as equals in Dragon Age, but it is something you shouldn´t expect in a medieval setting.
So please stop whining.

And don´t come with "realism". If we´re realistic, female players will sit in camp and cook for the hero and pleasure him at night. Cos that´s what life for women in medieval Europe was like.
Again, I am glad this has changed today. But it was like that back then, and history doesn´t change just like that.

I give up. You're just too full of your own testosterone-fueled ideas to get it. Any valid point I or others raise in regards to why it's utterly nonsensical to have women in chainmail bikinis you ignore because it doesn't suit your ugly view on life. You say you have the utmost respect, you say you're not sexist, and you know what, keep living your delusion. I have yet to see a single woman here--or a man, actually--seriously agree with your points. No one here is rationally saying "yeah, it absolutely makes sense!" 

I see where having women wear that kind of armor serves its purpose for a demographic. And I don't really have a problem with its existence. I take offense when armor that is practical on a man is shrunk in epic proportions on a female, but I rarely think it detracts from the game. BioWare I have a lot respect for, because while they do sexualize characters like Miranda and Morrigan, they give them reasons for being like that (they use they gender against men), and they are strong characters unto themselves. I would never want to see them do the same thing with my player character that other devs bow down to doing.

But all of it is moot, man:

You just don't get it.

Modifié par Saibh, 18 juillet 2010 - 04:36 .

[tmelange]

Tirigon wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

I think Saibh is right. This does smell like latent blatant sexism.

No mate, you´re just in fail mode and don´t understand anything. I am totally against sexism and I´m not in the slightiest bit sexist. I am only against Feminists because these are the true sexists and they suck and noone likes them.

The problem is that today women whine about being discriminated against when, in fact, women have equal rights with men, sometimes even MORE. It´s men who are constantly being discriminated against. However, many women, among them all feminists, don´t understand that and do not want equality but superiority. So they whine and cry and make themselves ridiculous and accuse people of sexism, and I only sit there and laugh because I´m having so much fun.

Seriously, you should be happy women are allowed to be warriors in DAO at all. In medieval Europe (= the inspiration for Thedas) women were not allowed to do so.

Don´t misunderstand me, I´m glad women are portrayed as equals in Dragon Age, but it is something you shouldn´t expect in a medieval setting.
So please stop whining.

And don´t come with "realism". If we´re realistic, female players will sit in camp and cook for the hero and pleasure him at night. Cos that´s what life for women in medieval Europe was like.
Again, I am glad this has changed today. But it was like that back then, and history doesn´t change just like that.

Hmm, well, IMHO, the argument about women in medieval times is thin at best. DA has its own internal setting, and though it may draw inspiration from a certain historical timeperiod, the social construct that was prevelant then is not really relavent to in-game consistency, or as a rebuttal to an objective proposition of whether a certain set of armor can offer adequate protection in the midst of battle.

Better to argue that the only thing that actually matters in-game is whether *whatever* a character is wearing generates the proper defense score, whether it's a cloak or a bikini. Internal consistency is what matters, and if the game designers have created a world where women wear scraps of armor into battle, that's the world in which we all play. Of course, that doesn't mean that someone can't argue that the internal consistency around a particular choice makes little practical sense and is, in fact, driven by concerns outside of the game's internal setting. A design objection doesn't necessarily have to be a feminist issue, though, obviously, it has gender and sexist underpinings that can't be denied.

[Reiisha]

Female Hawke will be a reskin of the male Hawke with exactly the same animations, armors and everything. At this point i wouldn't put it past Bioware if they actually use the male body aswell and the only way you can tell you're playing a female character is from the face and the voice.

[tmp7704]

nadoni wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

3 women here. Yesterday I saw 50 wearing hotpants and armless tops with their boobs hanging out.
That should tell you something.

Are these women in the middle of a battle? Are they fighting for their lives? Are arrows, swords, and daggers coming at them from every angle?

And I have no idea where the hell you live so that you see this all the time, but these women need a fashion check.

QFT.

By the way, I think Tirigon said he lives in Germany? Seriously, don't make it look like all women in Germany run around like that! I am a woman and I do live in Germany and I have yet to see even ONE woman wearing such clothes...

I think what Trigon isn't mentioning (on purpose) is, for the past week or so it's been a friggin' oven all over Europe. So it's hardly shocking people wear as little as they can get away with when it's 40-50 degrees Celsius (105-120 degrees F)

[Finiffa]

Tirigon wrote...
No mate, you´re just in fail mode and don´t understand anything. I am totally against sexism and I´m not in the slightiest bit sexist. I am only against Feminists because these are the true sexists and they suck and noone likes them.

The problem is that today women whine about being discriminated against when, in fact, women have equal rights with men, sometimes even MORE. It´s men who are constantly being discriminated against. However, many women, among them all feminists, don´t understand that and do not want equality but superiority. So they whine and cry and make themselves ridiculous and accuse people of sexism, and I only sit there and laugh because I´m having so much fun.

Your post is so full of sexism and bias I don't even know where to start. I can hardly believe this coming from a German (I am Dutch, I know quite a lot of Germans). But you have shown it is useless to argue with you so I wont even try. Keep having fun!

[Finiffa]

tmp7704 wrote...
I think what Trigon isn't mentioning (on purpose) is, for the past week or so it's been a friggin' oven all over Europe. So it's hardly shocking people wear as little as they can get away with when it's 40-50 degrees Celsius (105-120 degrees F)

Exactly. It's not like men arent walking around here with no shirts on and short trousers because of the temperature right?

[freaktong]

Tirigon wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

Sorry if my comments offended anyone as i had no intention in in being prejudice.
But really? most players over 30? I've always thought such games are full of young people (under 30).

[Finiffa]

freaktong wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

Sorry if my comments offended anyone as i had no intention in in being prejudice.
But really? most players over 30? I've always thought such games are full of young people (under 30).

Read up

[Saibh]

Finiffa wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

Sorry if my comments offended anyone as i had no intention in in being prejudice.
But really? most players over 30? I've always thought such games are full of young people (under 30).

Read up

Ooooh, thanks for sharing. This is really interesting...

...

I love the 60% male, 40% female bit. Because it just advances my point.

[TMZuk]

Tirigon wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

I think Saibh is right. This does smell like latent blatant sexism.

No mate, you´re just in fail mode and don´t understand anything. I am totally against sexism and I´m not in the slightiest bit sexist. I am only against Feminists because these are the true sexists and they suck and noone likes them.

The problem is that today women whine about being discriminated against when, in fact, women have equal rights with men, sometimes even MORE. It´s men who are constantly being discriminated against. However, many women, among them all feminists, don´t understand that and do not want equality but superiority. So they whine and cry and make themselves ridiculous and accuse people of sexism, and I only sit there and laugh because I´m having so much fun.

Seriously, you should be happy women are allowed to be warriors in DAO at all. In medieval Europe (= the inspiration for Thedas) women were not allowed to do so.

Don´t misunderstand me, I´m glad women are portrayed as equals in Dragon Age, but it is something you shouldn´t expect in a medieval setting.
So please stop whining.

And don´t come with "realism". If we´re realistic, female players will sit in camp and cook for the hero and pleasure him at night. Cos that´s what life for women in medieval Europe was like.
Again, I am glad this has changed today. But it was like that back then, and history doesn´t change just like that.

You obviously do not have a clue what you are talking about.

And as to women fighting in the middleages.

1. DA has nothing, what so ever, to do with European Middleages. There's no "back then".

2. I assume you have heard of Joan'd Arc?

3. Chainmail bikinis are so blatantly stupid that they are reason enough to NOT play a game!

Modifié par TMZuk, 18 juillet 2010 - 04:58 .

[Truncated Flea]

Finiffa wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

Sorry if my comments offended anyone as i had no intention in in being prejudice.
But really? most players over 30? I've always thought such games are full of young people (under 30).

Read up

Thanks for the link! The more you know

[freaktong]

Finiffa wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

Sorry if my comments offended anyone as i had no intention in in being prejudice.
But really? most players over 30? I've always thought such games are full of young people (under 30).

Read up

The world is hooked on games

[Saibh]

freaktong wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

Sorry if my comments offended anyone as i had no intention in in being prejudice.
But really? most players over 30? I've always thought such games are full of young people (under 30).

Read up

The world is hooked on games

This is...bad?

[freaktong]

Saibh wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

Sorry if my comments offended anyone as i had no intention in in being prejudice.
But really? most players over 30? I've always thought such games are full of young people (under 30).

Read up

The world is hooked on games

This is...bad?

 I'll let you decide.

[Aulis Vaara]

slimgrin wrote...

To be fair, all the women in ME2 are pretty damn seductive, and by design, so Bioware is not guiltless when it comes to objectifying women.

Well that's just not true. Not even Jack, who is pretty much naked from the waist up, is actually seductive. Only Miranda actually uses her body for seduction, and that's because she was made that way and uses it.

All the other women (who are in the minority by the way, so it's not like it's a cast of hot women anyway) are pretty much just themselves. Two are even completely covered up, as covered up as you can be. You only see Kasumi's mouth, and you can barely see Tali'Zorah's eyes behind her mask. Mystery is equally attractive to a man as nice curves though.

Samara shows some skin, but she's old and a mother, and the Asari are less prude anyway. Jack shows a lot of skin, but frankly I never noticed because of her tattoos, well obviously I know she's naked because I can see her tattoos, but I always notice those and never her breasts. Many apparently found that a problem so they just made a "remove the tats"-mod, so that was not as sexy as desired, apparently.

So no, I don't think Mass Effect 2 objectifies at all. I think it is full of strong women.

That said, I can't wait for a Lady Hawke screenshot, because that is who I will be playing.

And to add, even though half of you are going to think I'm whining: No epic fantasy + no Lady Hawke = no buy. It's simple, Dragon Age: Origins was an epic fantasy, which is one of my favourite genres so that is mostly what I want to play. Since Dragon Age 2 is not that, only a very interesting character would make it worthwhile for me, but I really don't feel like playing a male character, because I would ultimately just be me. And of course, I prefer looking at a pretty face, call me sexist if you want.

[tmelange]

Saibh wrote...

Finiffa wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

freaktong wrote...

Maybe because the main market for games are usually young males full of hormones.

Wrong. Way more than 50% of gamers are older than 30, and women make a big part of the player base too.

This is just a ridiculous prejudice I would expect from conservative idiots, not from something posting on an RPG forum.

Sorry if my comments offended anyone as i had no intention in in being prejudice.
But really? most players over 30? I've always thought such games are full of young people (under 30).

Read up

Ooooh, thanks for sharing. This is really interesting...

...

I love the 60% male, 40% female bit. Because it just advances my point.

IMHO, I think you have to be a bit careful with the female gaming stat from that report. The gender breakdown is not offered by category, so where you can perhaps have a high percentage of females playing something like the Sims, you might have a much smaller (or negligible) percentage playing in the shooter category or even the RPG category. I think there's an outdated perception of females (and old people, lol) as "casual" gamers, so an argument that might be valid for the gaming industry as a whole might not be as relevant to an individual video game genre.

That said, with over 40% of the overall gaming market consisting of women, it would seem to make economic sense for those previously male-targeted game genres to figure out a way to entice females to play their games. There is little profit to be gained in this day and age in entrenchment. An eye towards revamping certain design choices might go a long way in doing that, without alienating the "core" audience.

[Quercus]

TMZuk wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

I think Saibh is right. This does smell like latent blatant sexism.

No mate, you´re just in fail mode and don´t understand anything. I am totally against sexism and I´m not in the slightiest bit sexist. I am only against Feminists because these are the true sexists and they suck and noone likes them.

The problem is that today women whine about being discriminated against when, in fact, women have equal rights with men, sometimes even MORE. It´s men who are constantly being discriminated against. However, many women, among them all feminists, don´t understand that and do not want equality but superiority. So they whine and cry and make themselves ridiculous and accuse people of sexism, and I only sit there and laugh because I´m having so much fun.

Seriously, you should be happy women are allowed to be warriors in DAO at all. In medieval Europe (= the inspiration for Thedas) women were not allowed to do so.

Don´t misunderstand me, I´m glad women are portrayed as equals in Dragon Age, but it is something you shouldn´t expect in a medieval setting.
So please stop whining.

And don´t come with "realism". If we´re realistic, female players will sit in camp and cook for the hero and pleasure him at night. Cos that´s what life for women in medieval Europe was like.
Again, I am glad this has changed today. But it was like that back then, and history doesn´t change just like that.

You obviously do not have a clue what you are talking about.

And as to women fighting in the middleages.

1. DA has nothing, what so ever, to do with European Middleages. There's no "back then".

2. I assume you have heard of Joan'd Arc?

3. Chainmail bikinis are so blatantly stupid that they are reason enough to NOT play a game!

Wut? Chainmail bikinies are so smexy that they are MORE the reason to play a game!
If bioware implements sexy/beautifull/appealing female armour, I will contribute to them with a carrot.

And besides, Dragon Age universe is a fantasy universe, so there is nothing wrong with a slighly bit of unrealistic armour. But all in all I hope they will really put some effort into different armours this time, and by different armours I dont mean different colours, they failed at this with DAO, all the armour pretty much looked the same and were simply ugly.

[Tirigon]

Saibh wrote...

I give up. You're just too full of your own testosterone-fueled ideas to get it. Any valid point I or others raise in regards to why it's utterly nonsensical to have women in chainmail bikinis you ignore because it doesn't suit your ugly view on life. You say you have the utmost respect, you say you're not sexist, and you know what, keep living your delusion. I have yet to see a single woman here--or a man, actually--seriously agree with your points. No one here is rationally saying "yeah, it absolutely makes sense!" 

I see where having women wear that kind of armor serves its purpose for a demographic. And I don't really have a problem with its existence. I take offense when armor that is practical on a man is shrunk in epic proportions on a female, but I rarely think it detracts from the game. BioWare I have a lot respect for, because while they do sexualize characters like Miranda and Morrigan, they give them reasons for being like that (they use they gender against men), and they are strong characters unto themselves. I would never want to see them do the same thing with my player character that other devs bow down to doing.

But all of it is moot, man:

You just don't get it.

Seriously, I start getting offended now. You´re just too dumb to see reason if it hits you on the head, right?

Your point comes down to "Skimpy armor sucks, and if you don´t agree you´re sexist and dumb!" and that´s it. Everything you said is just that, only with more words around.....


For the 4th time now: I PREFER MY FEMALE CHARACTERS TO WEAR HEAVY PLATEMAIL.
Get it in your head after all, will you?

i am simply arguing against your whining and crying to see sexism where there is none. As a matter of fact many people like their characters and the NPCs to look slu7ty, and THAT`S WHY IT`S DONE. SEX SELLS! Ever heard of that? It´s the rule by which our economy works........

And fyi, I agree with your sentiment that it´s ridiculous if armor shrinks magically; I would go even further and say that armor shouldn´t change at all but instead there should be male and female versions of it.

What me annoys, though, is your godawful seriousness instead of taking it with humour. Can´t you just laugh about it, if it´s so ridiculous? No you can´t. You HAVE to accuse the devs who make such stuff and everyone who likes it of sexism..... Seriously, don´t you have better things to do than whine and cry?

Last but not least you should note that women are never shown in as inferior to men - on the contrary, these skimpy clothed warrior ladies are heroes who beat every man in just about everything. I would go as far as to say that this kind of clothing is a sign of strength and freedom for women, opposed to the Burqua women have to wear in muslim countries.
Naked Skin = Freedom. Or what do you think why the hippies made mini skirts popular?
"Modest" clothing has always been a sign of oppression, while showing skin was a way to show freedom and power.
Just for once, try looking at it like this.
And THIS is why I think it´s men who are discriminated in video games, not women.

Please be so nice and read this, and then think about it before you answer. I have not yet given up the hope you might understand after all.

[Tirigon]

tmelange wrote...

Better to argue that the only thing that actually matters in-game is whether *whatever* a character is wearing generates the proper defense score, whether it's a cloak or a bikini. Internal consistency is what matters, and if the game designers have created a world where women wear scraps of armor into battle, that's the world in which we all play. Of course, that doesn't mean that someone can't argue that the internal consistency around a particular choice makes little practical sense and is, in fact, driven by concerns outside of the game's internal setting. A design objection doesn't necessarily have to be a feminist issue, though, obviously, it has gender and sexist underpinings that can't be denied.

I agree with this 100%, and I think it is valid to criticize the chainmail bikini armor because it is ridiculous that it offers protection. But this is a criticism of the game mechanics - I could also criticize that rogues can sneak without penalty while wearing full plate armor, and this would also be valid.

But there is no reason to see sexism where there is none.

[Tirigon]

tmelange wrote...


IMHO, I think you have to be a bit careful with the female gaming stat from that report. The gender breakdown is not offered by category, so where you can perhaps have a high percentage of females playing something like the Sims, you might have a much smaller (or negligible) percentage playing in the shooter category or even the RPG category. I think there's an outdated perception of females (and old people, lol) as "casual" gamers, so an argument that might be valid for the gaming industry as a whole might not be as relevant to an individual video game genre.

That said, with over 40% of the overall gaming market consisting of women, it would seem to make economic sense for those previously male-targeted game genres to figure out a way to entice females to play their games. There is little profit to be gained in this day and age in entrenchment. An eye towards revamping certain design choices might go a long way in doing that, without alienating the "core" audience.

Many women are playing RPGs. I think (admittedly i´m not sure though) that even MORE women than men play RPGs.

In the shooter genre, the prejudice of mainly male players is (so far) true, I believe. however, there are more women playing shooters than you might believe, even in pro clans.
Unfortunately, many shooter players are stupid sexist idiots (funnily the kind you think I am, but you´re wrong:P) who ask every female player to show pictures of their boobs, so many female players do not admit they´re female but use male nicknames in order not to be annoyed by idiots.
The same is true in the MMORPG genre.
Last but not least, I have recently read an article by a woman who played shooters in a female-only pro clan and she found it discriminating that people make differences between male and female players because as gamers, they are all one group and it doesn´t matter if the soldier in a shooter is directed by a man or a woman.

This is quite an important notion, imo. After all you don´t know who the other really is. I could be a woman myself and you wouldn´t know........:innocent: