87 réponses à ce sujet

[Vicious]

The flaw with your arguement is that DAO OUTSOLD ME2.

It was released on an additional platform.



Go look at the numbers. That is literally the only reason.



Then ignore the evidence and continue crying, as is standard in these parts.

[Khavos]

Vicious wrote...

The flaw with your arguement is that DAO OUTSOLD ME2.

It was released on an additional platform.

Go look at the numbers. That is literally the only reason.

Then ignore the evidence and continue crying, as is standard in these parts.

Could you post those numbers please?

While we're at it, could we get the sales figures for ME1 and ME2? 

[Terror_K]

After reading this and the whole attitude Greg and the team seem to have about things I've lost a great deal of respect for him and BioWare. It just confirms a lot of suspicions I've had about the direction this company is going in more than anything.



I have pretty much no interest in Dragon Age 2 now. I really don't. What's the point in investing time in an IP that's just going to change all the time. I've been burned too many times in the past by things being retooled to even bother if BioWare is going to have this attitude about things. Seems they can't even keep their own products consistent now.



I suppose my loved for Dragon Age ends with Leliana's Song. I really enjoyed the books and the universe, but this is where it ends for me. If BioWare is going to be a company that does the very things to their own IP's that I despise the most then I don't feel they deserve my loyalty any more. It's as simple as that. I don't get into something for it to change every couple of years just for the hell of it or just because an art director changed, etc. I never understood the mentality of changing up an IP to be so damn different whenever it happened, and I never will. The reason I like something is because it is what it is, and quite often also because it's not what it's not. If it can't even remain consistent then there's no point getting into it. I love Star Wars, Star Trek and Stargate, but that doesn't mean I want one to become like the other.

[Kalfear]

Terror_K wrote...

After reading this and the whole attitude Greg and the team seem to have about things I've lost a great deal of respect for him and BioWare. It just confirms a lot of suspicions I've had about the direction this company is going in more than anything.

I have pretty much no interest in Dragon Age 2 now. I really don't. What's the point in investing time in an IP that's just going to change all the time. I've been burned too many times in the past by things being retooled to even bother if BioWare is going to have this attitude about things. Seems they can't even keep their own products consistent now.

I suppose my loved for Dragon Age ends with Leliana's Song. I really enjoyed the books and the universe, but this is where it ends for me. If BioWare is going to be a company that does the very things to their own IP's that I despise the most then I don't feel they deserve my loyalty any more. It's as simple as that. I don't get into something for it to change every couple of years just for the hell of it or just because an art director changed, etc. I never understood the mentality of changing up an IP to be so damn different whenever it happened, and I never will. The reason I like something is because it is what it is, and quite often also because it's not what it's not. If it can't even remain consistent then there's no point getting into it. I love Star Wars, Star Trek and Stargate, but that doesn't mean I want one to become like the other.

Terror makes a great point.

Why should we support a IP (any IP) if Bioware going to keep on changing those IPs?

I LOVED the original game design of ME1 and Bioware changed that into a full fledge shooter first game at the cost of story and other RPG elements!
I LOVE DA:O and every day this IP seems to change more and more and more. New art, new conversation system, less conversation filler, less character choices! and this just what? 2 weeks after announcing? What else is going to change. Does Denerim still exist? Does the tower still exist? Is the canon default game going to be like ME2 where they basically said every evil outcome from ME1 is now canon so we will have werewolves and golems running around? Where does it stop?

Terror also right, I to love Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate but that doesnt mean I want anyone in a red shirt to die in all the franchises!
That doesnt mean I want jedi jumping through Stargates to fight Klingons!

I just dont understand why all the changes? Why wasnt 3.2 million enough?

I said I was going to wait for more info but every time info comes out, im more and more concerned and less and less impressed!
I wont go through the disappointment that you all gave me with the ME2 changes again so im quickly starting to lose interest in this title as well!

How about you give us all some good news for a change?
Tell us Dwarves will still live underground mostly and havent suddenly grown pointy ears and learned to play the harp!
Cause I gotta be honest, at this point in time, that announcement wouldnt really surprise me all that much

[Rubbish Hero]

Yes, consistency.
Lord Of The Rings carry's over 3 movies, you don't want the first one like Batman Returns and the second like Batman Begins. That's a good point, this game wont be very good, in that regard.

Modifié par Rubbish Hero, 18 juillet 2010 - 06:19 .

[Addai]

Khavos wrote...

Vicious wrote...

The flaw with your arguement is that DAO OUTSOLD ME2.

It was released on an additional platform.

Go look at the numbers. That is literally the only reason.

Then ignore the evidence and continue crying, as is standard in these parts.

Could you post those numbers please?

While we're at it, could we get the sales figures for ME1 and ME2? 

Does it matter?  The devs have said it's not the sales figures that are driving the decision but "the passion of the team," whatever that means, and a desire to be "fresh" and to "challenge the players."  It seems they figure DAO's success gives them license to innovate rather than reason to stay conservative on changing things.

[Lucy Glitter]

A key feature of quality is consistency in anything.



So, in a sense, DA2 will not have quality.

[Vicious]

Sorry Khavos, I'm not doing anyone's homework for them in an effort to prove a point. I saw the sales figs a couple times and remembered them.

It seems they figure DAO's success gives them license to innovate rather than reason to stay conservative on changing things.

Basically. DAO was not revolutionary by any stretch of the imagination. It was merely a good game. Bioware doesn't like to settle for less.

[MerinTB]

Vicious wrote...
Sorry Khavos, I'm not doing anyone's homework for them in an effort to prove a point. I saw the sales figs a couple times and remembered them.

I saw figures that prove that DAO outsold ME1 & ME2 combined 5 times over.
5 times over.

No, I'm not going to post them or point out where I found them.  You go try and find them and prove me wrong by showing they don't exist.  Go on - find they don't exist.  Prove a negative.

I'm waiting.

[Kalfear]

MerinTB wrote...

Vicious wrote...
Sorry Khavos, I'm not doing anyone's homework for them in an effort to prove a point. I saw the sales figs a couple times and remembered them.

I saw figures that prove that DAO outsold ME1 & ME2 combined 5 times over.
5 times over.

No, I'm not going to post them or point out where I found them.  You go try and find them and prove me wrong by showing they don't exist.  Go on - find they don't exist.  Prove a negative.

I'm waiting.

Only 5???????

Im sure I saw a report that said 20 times over ME1 and ME2 but im also not going to do anyone elses homework!

[Fraevar]

I'm officially getting sick of them saying nothing and never admitting to doing anything that can be construed as negative. But I am glad that the Eurogamer reviewer at least asked the question - it's nice to see that some game journalists still do something more than simply provide lip-service to publishers.



Fact: DA:O sold 3.2 million copies. Fact: ME2 sold 1.6 million copies. Therefor DA:O > ME2. No, I'm not going to provide you any numbers or sources whatsoever, you'll just have to hunt through Google yourself *rolls eyes*

[Addai]

Vicious wrote...

It seems they figure DAO's success gives them license to innovate rather than reason to stay conservative on changing things.

Basically. DAO was not revolutionary by any stretch of the imagination. It was merely a good game. Bioware doesn't like to settle for less.

It was pretty revolutionary for me as such things go.

[Terror_K]

Addai67 wrote...

Vicious wrote...

It seems they figure DAO's success gives them license to innovate rather than reason to stay conservative on changing things.

Basically. DAO was not revolutionary by any stretch of the imagination. It was merely a good game. Bioware doesn't like to settle for less.

It was pretty revolutionary for me as such things go.

It was at least revolutionary in the fact that it bucked the trend of 90% of the games out there today. It wasn't terribly original, but there hadn't been a deep RPG for so long that it was a breath of fresh air, even if it wasn't actually fresh itself.

[Kalfear]

Terror_K wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Vicious wrote...

It seems they figure DAO's success gives them license to innovate rather than reason to stay conservative on changing things.

Basically. DAO was not revolutionary by any stretch of the imagination. It was merely a good game. Bioware doesn't like to settle for less.

It was pretty revolutionary for me as such things go.

It was at least revolutionary in the fact that it bucked the trend of 90% of the games out there today. It wasn't terribly original, but there hadn't been a deep RPG for so long that it was a breath of fresh air, even if it wasn't actually fresh itself.

It was revolutionary in the sence it went back to old school story telling as Terror said and it SOLD AWSOME!

[Fraevar]

Terror_K wrote...
It was at least revolutionary in the fact that it bucked the trend of 90% of the games out there today. It wasn't terribly original, but there hadn't been a deep RPG for so long that it was a breath of fresh air, even if it wasn't actually fresh itself.

This. It was deep, engaging and the design didn't focus on instant-gratification for every moment. It dared to be complex and it wasn't afraid to make things hard on you if you played it wrong.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Rubbish Hero wrote...

Yes, consistency.
Lord Of The Rings carry's over 3 movies, you don't want the first one like Batman Returns and the second like Batman Begins. That's a good point, this game wont be very good, in that regard.

Or compare Lord of the Rings to the Hobbit

Besides you can't compare Fellowship to the Two Towers like you can compare DA 1 to DA 2.  DA 1 is a complete story.  Fellowship is 1/3 of a story.

[Kranaos]

MerinTB wrote...

I can appreciate developers deciding "it's our company, our product, and we'll change what we want."

They are entitled to that. They are allowed to do that.
And they are absolutely allowed to experience the negative press from the backlash for doing so.

While DAO was a big hit, the advertising for it was a joke. It was successful despite the horrid choice of music and the badly misleading (though very cool to watch) Sacred Ashes trailer.


I did work in market research for some time. I think the best thing for them to do would be, inside an IP, stick with what made that IP a success. If they want to experiment, create a new IP. It's pretty much what they did jumping from KotOR to Jade Empire, from Jade Empire to Mass Effect - all the while letting DAO languish during BioWare's "develop our console fanbase" years.

I personally don't begrudge a company wanting to try different things. Go ahead, BioWare, and try an MMO. If it tickles some of your creators fancies, try a story-heavy RTS property.

I think no one is seriously arguing against them trying different things.

I think was SOME people are upset about is flip-flopping about in a series instead of tweaking a formula and making it better.

SSI was damn successful with a certain engine, the Gold Box one, for 6 years and over a dozen games. They then switch engines and game styles and the company did so poorly it was bought out.
Elsewhere I've mentioned the missteps of Bethesda making Battlespire and Redguard. Red Guard was initially intended to be the first of a series of games focusing on more defined MCs, the Elder Scrolls Adventures line. Like Mortal Kombat: Sub-Zero, it wasn't successful enough to continue the concept. Bethesda pulled Elder Scrolls back to the Morrowind and Oblivion, going back to the Daggerfall model that garnered them much attention and love from players.

The article reads like Greg is saying "the fans we care about are on our design team" and "while we won't please all our fans, enough will come around to loving our new direction anyway."

If Bioware made an awesome heavy story RTS complete with a huge Editor then I don't think I would ever leave my computer...Imagine commanding an Army of darkspawn in an RTS!!!!

[AlanC9]

Delerius_Jedi wrote...
Fact: DA:O sold 3.2 million copies. Fact: ME2 sold 1.6 million copies. Therefor DA:O > ME2. No, I'm not going to provide you any numbers or sources whatsoever, you'll just have to hunt through Google yourself *rolls eyes*

The ME2 figure is certainly an undercount. That was only a first quarter result, and I'm not 100% certain that it includes Steam sales. Though I'm pretty sure that DA did outsell ME2 by a fair margin.

Edit: some folks make an issue of the additional platform, but I'm not sure there are that many gamers who don't have either a PC or an XBox available.

Modifié par AlanC9, 18 juillet 2010 - 07:57 .

[Khavos]

Vicious wrote...

Sorry Khavos, I'm not doing anyone's homework for them in an effort to prove a point. I saw the sales figs a couple times and remembered them.

No, you didn't, because you're absolutely wrong in your assertions about them.  DA:O > Mass Effect > Mass Effect 2 in terms of sales. 

[Kalfear]

scyphozoa wrote...

I think people suffer from an illusion of permanence. This is basically the most common and predictable reaction to any sequel. It happened with Mass Effect, its happens with every bit of film, television, literature, games and more. Any time you have a fan base of a franchise that gets a sequel or another installment, it is always a painful issue for some fans to accept that the sequel is not just a reskin of the original product they fell in love with.

As human beings, please, stop being so predictable. Let musicians make the music they want. Let film directors make the films they want. And let Bioware make the games they want. Your input is valid, but the slogan "if its not broke don't fix it" doesn't apply to art. Art always has to grow and evolve and video games are art.

If you want the 80 hour experience of DAO, its not going anywhere, but please stop begging for a reskin of the same experience.

Actually its a game, which is a commercial product being designed IN TOTAL for mass consumption!

Sorry if that little FACT  goes over your head. 

[Kalfear]

Art you buy and enjoy over a long period of time!

Games you consume like a soft drink

Its a more instant gratification and then done!



Games contain art but to call them just art is,

well its stupid truth be told



Really cant explain it better then that!

I know your proud of your art claim (why you posted here then made your own thread about it, attention here not enough for you) but its not realistic or correct.



Games are commercial products that are driven by consumer supply and demand! Nothing more, nothing less!



With your explanation of art, then everything in the world is art.

Soda pop is a art

socks are a art

nose clippers are a art!



Sorry but your one word fits all explanation doesnt fit!