30 réponses à ce sujet

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

First, why can't you keep your taint, and allow the rest to fade away? Personally, I believe your "taint" is a part of who you are, without it, you probably wouldn't have even left Candlekeep, much less walk the realms as a power on level of Eleminster (and when he said he's no match for you, I disagree. He's a Chosen of Mystra- sorrt of like a bhaalspawn, but granted at a young age, rather than at birth, and one of the most powerful men to walk Faerun as well).

Second, if you chose to become a god, what are your portfolios? Do you replace Cyric as a god? And, if so, how could a "good" character take up the mantle of Murder, Illusion, and Intrigue?

[Khayness]

Only Mortal/Lord of Murder/Benevolent God endings exit.

It's possible that you take Cyric's place as an evil character, since he challenges you in the pocket dimension.

[corey_russell]

As far as I am aware, you don't replace Cyric. As he explains in ToB during one of the challenges, he simply got Bhaal's portfolio when he died. If you become god you are getting Bhaal's portfolio, Cyric would still be ruler of the plane of pandemonium (as he also explains in the same dialog). While Bhaal was god of murder, you don't have to be that yourself, you can do what you want with the power you have.

[Seagloom]

Cyric only has Bhaal's old portfolio of Murder. Charname could reclaim Violence and Assassination and that alone would likely propel her/him to the status of lesser power. If Cyric is forced to surrender Murder for some reason, then Charname instantly becomes an intermediate power like Bhaal was. Either way Cyric is still very powerful and has several other portfolios. I don't see him going anywhere. Whatever goes down, he's destined to become one of Charname's worst enemies.

If Charname becomes a good power it's muddier, as I don't know what goodly portfolios are unclaimed and if s/he would even qualify for them. Charname could become a demigod with the portfolios another goodly power has. That's only one rung above what s/he was as a mortal, but it's still a full god/dess. Demigods can share portfolios with higher powers as long as they don't ascend to the status of lesser power. At that point they would be forced into conflict with whoever else holds those portfolios to decide who the office holder should be.

In any case, Bhaal's divine spark is the most important thing that's needed for Charname to become a power. With that and permission from the gods (which s/he gets after trouncing Amelyssan enough) divinity is guaranteed. At a minimum s/he automatically qualifies for demigod-hood. The question of portfolios is very tricky to answer because Charname can be very different depending on class and dialogue choices. What kind of portfolios s/he gets has a lot to do with where her/his interests lie and what kind of person s/he is.

Modifié par Seagloom, 20 juillet 2010 - 10:42 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Imoen, Goddess of all things pink and fluffy.

Sarevok, Lord of pointy sticks and iron shortages

<CHARNAME>, God of potion hoarding and getting sidetracked

[Ponce de Leon]

Btw, why can't the player decide to give the choice to Imoen? I know she gives her taint to you (if I didn't forget or something?) but why can't you do a back favor by giving hell ALL the taint?

[FlintlockJazz]

I don't think she wants it, I think she just wants to be mortal, however forcing her to take the taint and become a god against her will could be funny just for her reaction, though making Imoen a goddess may have horrendous repercussions for the Realms...

[nimzar]

I like to think that a good character becomes the god of fully justified homicide (like in self-defense, taking out a truly evil person)

Also I like to think that if you choose to remain mortal the solar lies to you... about locking the bhaal essence in Mt. Celestia... I think that Cespenar inherits it (he is the only one left in Bhaal's domain who could qualify). They just don't tell anyone about this. "Cespenar gladly be the great one! Cespenar make good lord of murder, oh yes."

Modifié par nimzar, 02 août 2010 - 10:06 .

[Morbidest]

I doubt that the Space Hamsters would allow Cespenar to get away with it They would probably send in Boo and Minsc to pirate it away and eventually dump it into a Black Hole somewhere outsides Ao's jurisdiction

[SometimesSpring]

Morbidest wrote...

I doubt that the Space Hamsters would allow Cespenar to get away with it They would probably send in Boo and Minsc to pirate it away and eventually dump it into a Black Hole somewhere outsides Ao's jurisdiction

"Come Boo. We shall snatch away this wrongly inherited badness from the covetous imp! Your squeakiness shall prevail over his!"

[Morbidest]

How true!

[HoonDing]

I think for good characters, a good deity would make the PC an exarch - especially paladins. This is kinda what Tyr did with Torm, IIRC.

Modifié par virumor, 03 août 2010 - 06:20 .

[The Fred]

"Go for the eyes, Boo! GO FOR THE EYES!"

[aimlessgun]

The way the game presents Bhaal is actually not totally evil in some cases. My impression of Bhaal is based on the book "History of the Three" or something from the Irenicus library, where the 3 mortals take the powers of Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything. Bhaal chose last and took death, because it not only gave him power over the tyrant of the living, Bane, since he could murder his subjects, but its ALSO gave him power over Myrkul, who presided over the dead, because he could stay his hand.



So this ingame description of Bhaal paints him as not necessarily a god of murder, but possibly a more neutral power with choice in who he kills.

[The Fred]

I suppose that "murder" is a chosen inflicting of death, generally speaking. That's normally associated with being evil, but I can see that Bhall might be portrayed as being... well, *less* evil than other evil gods.

[Seagloom]

What the "History of the Three" book in-game doesn't reveal is how many entities Bane, Myrkul, and Bhaal killed on their journey to confront Jergal. Nor does it mention how Bhaal teamed up with Talos and tried to subjugate the Moonshae isles to install himself as one of the few recognized deities there. Or how when Bhaal was slain by Cyric he took the life of every assassin who worshiped him in his death throes.

The mere presence of living creatures instilled him with an overpowering urge to murder them. The game does a good job of making Bhaal out to be a purely evil figure, but it doesn't really go into detail on his past except for that brief excerpt in "History of the Three". That makes it easier to consider him less malevolent from a certain perspective. In a way Bhaal was a force of nature, but many times he did wicked things for its own sake. He was as power hungry as Bane and Myrkul.

Bhaal's basic tenets to his clerics: “Make all folk fear Bhaal. Let your killings be especially elegant, or grisly, or seem easy so that those observing them are awed or terrified. Tell folk that gold proffered to the church can make the Lord of Murder overlook them for today.”

He also charged his priests kill at least once every ten days. If circumstances prevented this, they were to kill two people for every tenday murder they missed. Bhaal had choice in who he killed but reveled in the act itself. In short, he was a cunning, sadistic bully.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 août 2010 - 09:32 .

[aimlessgun]

Well, that's pretty damning.

But if that's just Bhaal and not necessarily his 'portfolio', then it still leaves it open as to what kind of god you will be exactly. Because I got the 'evil god' ending but I wasn't a particularly evil character...just not a goody goody character. So I just sort of imagined it turning out as a neutralish god. 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 05 août 2010 - 09:03 .

[Seagloom]

Well, his portfolio is a bit weird compared to most. It's "Death, especially violent or ritual death." Whereas Myrkul has dominion over the dead specifically, Bhaal governs the moment of death itself.

[HoonDing]

I think an evil PC ascending into 'godhood' would immediately get a visit from Cyric, demanding his Bhaal essence back. And that would be the end immediately. Even a good PC god would barely be good enough to lick the boots of a lesser good deity.

[Seagloom]

Cyric mentions Ao forcing the other gods not to meddle, and the Solar stops big M after a point because the gods agree that battle has gone on long enough. Cyric can't just waltz over, slap down Charname and take murder from her/him. If it was that easy all the lesser and demigod level evil deities would have been subsumbed by their mightier counterparts by now. One of the reasons the Time of Troubles was such a big deal is that it was a rare moment where all you need to do to take another god's power was kill them and steal their divine spark. There's protocol to follow, even for the divine. XD That said, I agree on good PCs. I don't see how they go above lesser deity status, at best.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 août 2010 - 09:49 .

[HoonDing]

But after CHARNAME became a 'god', Cyric would be able to come along, no? After all, he murdered Mystra (in her own home plane, for that matter)... which also seemed to be against Ao's directive. Not to mention, Mask seemed to have gone awol as well.

Then again, Cyric *was* a complete nutter.

Modifié par virumor, 05 août 2010 - 11:48 .

[Seagloom]

I refuse to acknowledge 4e. In all seriousness though, the tail end of 3.5e threw out piles of established lore so the designers could squeeze the Forgotten Realms setting to fit their vision of a new edition. For instance, Ao was out to lunch when Mystra got stabbity-stabbed, but was watching Lolth and Eilistraee's game of sava intently. Mask was retconned into being a sort of son to Shar and vassal, and finding worlds for her to devour. As in, they turned him into the Silver Surfer and Shar to Galactus, minus the goofy comic book designs. Late 3.5/early 4e lore is just an inconsistent mess.

That said, I would acknowledge it for the sake of debate since it is canon, whether I like it or not, and fair debate requires a common starting point. Still, since Baldur's Gate 2 takes place circa 2e I go by that edition's lore instead when discussing it. As far as Cyric killing Mystra goes, he had help from Shar who simultaneously dazed Mystra and Azuth while Cyric struck the deathblows. Cyric stood no chance on succeeding in a conflict with Mystra otherwise.

It's very unusual for gods to attack each other in that way because most of them have allies, access to ancient secrets, and armies of servants; some of which are very powerful and clever in their own right. That Solar in ToB who becomes a good Charname's right hand, for example. Solars are not to be trifled with. Maybe it could happen considering everything else. I don't feel ToB's ending sets it up that way for evil Charname though. Cyric and the Solar's words aside, ToB's closing movie implies Charname becomes a badass. It's doubtful she/he would ever be an *ultimate* badass though. I agree there.

Modifié par Seagloom, 06 août 2010 - 12:42 .

[HoonDing]

It feels like Mystra's murder was just a plot device to shoehorn the horrible new magic system into FR.



She had been killed at least twice before, and the Weave didn't fail then..

[The Fred]

As far as I can tell, they feel they need a few climactic disasters to rationalise the massive changes they are creating. Personally I think they should have focused on the things that actually needed focusing on and left the things that weren't broken alone. Maybe even a 3.75th Ed ;-)



Not that I really know anything about PnP D&D, but I hear a lot of people who do dislike 4th Ed.

[G_Admiral_Thrawn]

virumor wrote...

It feels like Mystra's murder was just a plot device to shoehorn the horrible new magic system into FR.

She had been killed at least twice before, and the Weave didn't fail then..

???? The whole reason the high Nethereese fell (and the NWN2 guardian fell to Shar) is because the Weave failed.  And it Faerun YEARS (in some areas it took DECADES) to recover from Mystra's death (remember all those wild/dead magic areas? that's areas of the Weave that were screwed up when Mystra died).

But I concurr, 4ed was a complete butchery. Is nothing safe? First Star Wars, then Star Trek (or maybe at the same time), and now D&D.