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[Phototoxin]

But Mystra was too OP and imho too 'fanboi' ish. I was sick of hearing of the Chosen of Mystra and the like. She is the goddess of magic, it doesn't mean that she *is* magic. I was glad that she died and that magic is free to all. I also like shar so I'm glad she had a hand in it.

[Seagloom]

G_Admiral_Thrawn wrote...

???? The whole reason the high Nethereese fell (and the NWN2 guardian fell to Shar) is because the Weave failed.  And it Faerun YEARS (in some areas it took DECADES) to recover from Mystra's death (remember all those wild/dead magic areas? that's areas of the Weave that were screwed up when Mystra died).

But I concurr, 4ed was a complete butchery. Is nothing safe? First Star Wars, then Star Trek (or maybe at the same time), and now D&D.

Indeed. Technically the Weave did fail. It lasted for all of an instant as Mystra reformed after Karsus's botched attempt to ascend, but that instance was long enough for magic to fail around Toril. As noted above by Thrawn, it had lasting consequences.

Phototoxin wrote...

But Mystra was too OP and imho too 'fanboi' ish. I was sick of hearing of the Chosen of Mystra and the like. She is the goddess of magic, it doesn't mean that she *is* magic. I was glad that she died and that magic is free to all. I also like shar so I'm glad she had a hand in it.

That is entirely subjective. First off, what does it matter if she was "too OP"? We are talking about a fantasy setting here, not a fighting game or MMO where game balance actually matters. How many tabletop settings have beings that tower above everyone else? That is putting aside the fact Ao, Asmodeus, and Jazirian are all above the gods. The latter two in particular are responsible for the existence of the entire multiverse.

You are also somewhat incorrect about Mystra. She was the goddess of magic, but not the raw force of magic. She was however the embodiment of the Weave; which until 4e came along was the means every spellcaster on Toril cast spells through. Even clerics, druids, and other gods had to go through the Weave to cast spells. That made her unsurprisingly more important to the setting's magic than other magic deities in other settings. As well, magic was free to all. She did not keep evil people from accessing magic. The last incarnation of Mystra tried it at first, but was forced to be impartial by the gods... and that was primarily because she had different ideals than her previous incarnations which were of neutral alignment.

Mystra only cut others off of magic when their actions threatened its very existence. The Chosen of Mystra were not really these heroic figures people unfamiliar with the "Forgotten Realms" assume. They were there to preserve and advance magic. All the Chosen did that in different ways. The ever (in)famous Elminster for instance planted magical items in dungeons that were already explored, so that eventually new adventurers and explorers who discovered them anew would find those items and be inspired to learn magic or at least spread it. At one point Mystra explicitly forbade the Simbul from destroying the Red Wizards of Thay because it would hurt the advancement of magic as a whole. Despite their cruelties, she wanted them around. There are countless examples like this but I have already rambled long enough. Bottom line: you have a mistaken understanding of Mystra's role in the setting.

You are of course, free to still dislike her. Personally I liked Mystra. I was indifferent toward some of the Chosen given Ed Greenwood's questionable logic in explaining their behavior, but found others interesting enough. I think they get a bad rap as a whole, though. Most people have the mistaken impression they were Faerûn's version of the Justice League.

I liked Shar too. Emphasis on the past tense. Shar was much more interesting when she was treated strictly as an opposing force to Selûne. I liked that she was cunning and secretive. Shar's part in Mystra's death and the Spellplague were ridiculous in my opinion because she was operating out in the open with all the subtlety of Minsc. It just came across as very out as very out of character to me. Then there was the fact she did not expect the Spellplague to cost her the Shadow Weave, or that somehow she is able to suppress Mystra from properly ressurecting again as before. They basically turned Shar from this sly, inscrutable trickster to a pointlessly sadistic, foolish evil overlord wannabe. Cyric, and to a lesser extent, Bane, already fit that role well enough. I miss the old Shar. Well, I miss the old "Forgotten Realms" as a whole, but Shar's gradual shift culminating in 4e was one of the saddest changes to me.

I also do not get the fanboyish claim. Mystra and her Chosen were not all that prolific. Ed Greenwood wrote about them frequently enough, but his books accounted for a fraction of novels based on the setting. There were also other characters with greater power or more frequent coverage. None of the Chosen, including Elminster, are anywhere near as popular as the drow. Drizzt is pretty much the face FR, and despite her niche status as a demihuman goddess, Lolth receives a ridiculous amount of attention. There are also many more sites devoted to drow and their deities than anything related to Mystra.

Modifié par Seagloom, 21 janvier 2011 - 01:42 .

[HoonDing]

Mystra's avatar was the most powerful by far, yet during the Time of Troubles she was very easily subdued and kidnapped by Bane (Midnight, Cyric & Kelemvor had go save her with Elminster). Not to mention, Helm killed her very easily as well.

The only thing I like about the next Mystra's death is the drama that preceded it; IIRC Cyric had been in love with Midnight but she went with Kelemvor.

Seagloom wrote...

Drizzt is pretty much the face FR, and
despite her niche status as a demihuman goddess, Lolth receives a
ridiculous amount of attention. There are also many more sites devoted
to drow and their deities than anything related to Mystra.

Not to mention an entire book series was written just to kill off the entire Drow pantheon and turn Lolth into a greater deity. 

Modifié par virumor, 22 janvier 2011 - 05:18 .

[Phototoxin]

which until 4e came along was the means every spellcaster on Toril cast spells through. Even clerics, druids, and other gods had to go through the Weave to cast spells.

Unless they used shadoweave though.

Bottom line: you have a mistaken understanding of Mystra's role in the setting.

Perhaps but I have a general dislike of such a pervading and too powerful deity, she was the goddess of magic, I initially read that as 'patron' of magic, not 'sole supplier and ruler of' magic



Anyway I thought shar convinced cyric to do it with mask as a weapon?



And that blip aside old shar is still there and in a better place. She should be more emphasised but then we'd know too much about her and she's supposed to be secretive.

I also do not get the fanboyish claim. Mystra and her Chosen were not all that prolific. Ed Greenwood wrote about them frequently enough, but his books accounted for a fraction of novels based on the setting. There were also other characters with greater power or more frequent coverage. None of the Chosen, including Elminster, are anywhere near as popular as the drow. Drizzt is pretty much the face FR, and despite her niche status as a demihuman goddess, Lolth receives a ridiculous amount of attention. There are also many more sites devoted to drow and their deities than anything related to Mystra.

True, but Dirty D and the happy friends aside, and lolth aside mystra is next on my list!



I actually preferred Ghaundahar and Kiransilee anyway to the regular S&M elves.

[Seagloom]

Phototoxin wrote...

Unless they used shadoweave though.

Do not get me started on the Shadow Weave. Worst idea in 3e FR, I thought. You make a good point, though. Then again, the only god that seemed interested in the Shadow Weave was Velsharoon. Shar was selling, but most gods were not buying. It may be because she is far less predictable than Mystra.

Phototoxin wrote...

Perhaps but I have a general dislike of such a pervading and too powerful deity, she was the goddess of magic, I initially read that as 'patron' of magic, not 'sole supplier and ruler of' magic

Anyway I thought shar convinced cyric to do it with mask as a weapon?

And that blip aside old shar is still there and in a better place. She should be more emphasised but then we'd know too much about her and she's supposed to be secretive.

That is your right, of course. One of the reasons I found Mystra unique was her embodiment of the Weave status. It was a different take than most D&D settings with godly patrons such as Boccob. I also like Kelemvor for similar reasons. That is, a death god that is not this depressing necromancy obssessed guy. Shar and Cyric killed Mystra together. Mask had nothing to do with it. Actually, Mask's story during the 3e/4e transition is such a painful retcon I rather not get into it. It makes my eyes bleed. The short of it is Shar's power allowed them to sneak into Dweomerheart. She then did some sort of hypnotic dance that stunned Azuth and Mystra while Cyric ganked her. Mystra's death caused an explosion that hurled Azuth into the Nine Hells where Asmodeus killed him to steal his divine power. (Taking a demotion for who knows what reason...) Savras who was just hanging around was atomized. The Mask and Cyric teamup was during the Time of Troubles. Mask hates Cyric these days.

Phototoxin wrote...

True, but Dirty D and the happy friends aside, and lolth aside mystra is next on my list!

I actually preferred Ghaundahar and Kiransilee anyway to the regular S&M elves.

I suddenly feel a need to watch "Pootie Tang". I preferred them both as well. I was particularly fond of Kiaransalee. She was everything I love about necromancers. Actually, she is the only necromancer deity I really like in D&D. Vecna is is too big a Gary Stu. Not many other gods could drop kick a demon lord like Orcus and live to tell about it. The way she was "killed" was so incredibly lame and anticlimatic. She deserved better.

At least Ghaunadaur is still around. One of the few funny parts about the transition was how he blindsided Lolth and made her look like a fool. 

virumor wrote...

Not to mention an entire book series was written just to kill off the entire Drow pantheon and turn Lolth into a greater deity.

Except Ghaunadaur! He was left out of that series. Lolth battled him after its conclusion to finish up her compettion. It turned out he was some Cthulhu-esque elder horror with the power of a greater god. Lolth was forced to run away like a coward. Hilarious. But yes, elves and particularly drow get lots of screen time. I never read that trilogy personally since I was hearing so many bad things. The red wizard books were okay though. I mean, at least it had nothing to do with drow.

Modifié par Seagloom, 23 janvier 2011 - 11:44 .

[HoonDing]

I'm willing to forgive all the absurdities of 4th edition if Shar kicks the bucket in 5th edition.