37 réponses à ce sujet

[avado]

Shia Luck wrote...

I have a s26/Cl13/m1 So I figured it was something like that, (S26 because of the dispel thingy & feat. Zen archer caster in my case. )... but I still can't see how you get those numbers.

30 (divine power bab) + 5gmw +5 div fav + (Death Slaad shape =24 str)= +7 (+ 5 str bulls str)= +2 + 3ewf +1 prowess = 53
If your Death Slaad has weapon finesse then we can add +6 by using the dex of 36 =59
Oops, forgot battletide +2 = 61
and bless and prayer +2 = 63

Is this how you got 63?

Oh and war domain will give (+4 dex =)+2 AB and +4AB soooo =69

...but I don't think GMW is going to help Death Slaad shape as they use creature weapons not weapons so that's -5 = 64
...and nor will EWF because Death Slaad use a creature weapon and you can't take that feat so that's -3 = 61
(and I'm not completely sure whether Prowess works for shifts so that might be another -1 for 60)


It's actually a lot closer than I first thought. Which is my fault because I never normally count domain buffs because 1/day things are not representative and I hadn't thought about using shifts, but even so I can't find 63AB.

I can't find 80 AC either. (10 base +20 EMA + (36dex=) +13 + war domain dex +2, + cats grace +2 (+18 wis=) +4 + owl's wisdom +2 +10 Death Slaad shape (+the -2 to enemy Ab from battleide?) =65

Sooooo, what am I missing? (Or.. Are your numbers from combatdebugging or from the character sheet?)

You are missing nothing Shia.  People who dont have the courage to post their idea (build) generally arent telling the truth.   

However, in your ab calculation, you should separate out those that count towards the 20 cap and those that dont.  Divine power, fav and GMW all count, so you have +15 to +17 already.  EWF is +3 so you have between 0 and 2 to play with.

SInce he was nice enough to say that Charisma is 29 and wis is 18, the AB stats are NOT boosted.  This means his base AB preepic is 12-15 (dep on how he takes his classes).  Assume 15, at 40 it is 29 (ewf and prowess).  Now you add stat (assume str) (with slaad 24+12=36-10=26/2=13).  29+13 = 42.  +20 cap is 62, so giving my math is out 63. 

The problem is you are now in a SHAPE!  This means you have to come out of shape to recast, and div fav has 1 round MAX duration so you will be down 5 (58) for most.   Assume extend spell, your Div power dur is 32 rounds.   GMW may or may not work, and my shifting is rusty. 

In all, this relys on a VERY rest friendly environment for a one trick poney.  I assumed Pal cuz how on earth would someone take cleric in a gimped build!  LOL 

The AC is just silly!  EMA isnt +20, its 5/5/5/5 so if he has ANY clerical defense up, it negates itself (cept for dodge, and he doesnt have UEF, so...). 

[qaerinju]

I didn't think I'd have to explain the basics on this forum, but here goes:

For max BAB go 16 Cleric/4 Sorc pre-epic = 24 BAB + 19 (capped Dex) + 6 (Divine Power) + 1 (Bless) + 1 (Aid) + 5 (Divine Favor) + 1 (Prayer) + 2 (Battletide) + 4 (War Domain) + 1 (Epic Prowess) - 1 (Large Size).

AC: 10 + 19 (capped Dex) + 7 (emp Owl's Wisdom) + 20 (EMA) + 10 (shape) + 4 (Haste) + 1 (Mage Armor) + 8 (tumble) + 2 (Armor Skin) - 1 (Large Size) = 80.

Yes obviously you'll need to deshift to keep your AB (and to some extent your AC) up. If you need to do that in the middle of combat, make sure you put EW up first. I'd allow up to a 10 minute rest restriction as you'll have 3 level 8 Cleric slots for extended AoVs. And once you've used your War Domain you're at 58 AB max so best to keep it in reserve for a tough fight.

[Shia Luck]

qaerinju wrote...

I didn't think I'd have to explain the basics on this forum, but here goes:

Sorry, I'm blonde. Sometimes you have to explain things to me two or even three times . Seriously tho, explaining does at least make sure we are all discussing the same thing, no?  Anyway, thanks for doing so . I really hadn't seen that domain spell to help max out your dex so I wouldn't've got it otherwise.

I can't say I like it because I don't like resting often and after 20 rounds or so those numbers will start to reduce, and where I play he'd be dispelled, but as far as exploiting every little nuance, it was an education, thanks.

Clerics are soooooooo overpowered

Have fun

[qaerinju]

Shia Luck wrote...

but as far as exploiting every little nuance, it was an education, thanks.

You're welcome.

[avado]

qaerinju wrote...

I don't spoon feed people builds but seeing as you smiled sweetly I'll give you the outline. I'm sure you can work out the detail for yourself.

There is a reason for this!

Starts with 13 str, 10 int, 17 wis, 16 cha. Ends with 18 wis and 29 cha. Domains War and Strength. Buff with everything you got then shift into Death Slaad. Obviously you can buff with the domain powers while shifted, and with Divine Might. Don't forget to take Weapon Finesse!
Choose carefully where you play it if you decide to. Obviously the lower the magic the better, not dispel heavy, and with little or no rest restrictions. And preferably with some kind of buff/sequencer item to cut down your buffing time.
Enjoy.

I would LOVE to see HOW you manage to take 18 wisdom, 29 charisma AND 36 dex in ONE build (assuming BASE numbers as quoting buffed STATS is misleading)! 

To get to +19 dex bonus you need 19*2+10=48 dex with gear!  How on earth, with 7 epic feats and 10 stats can you get to these numbers when i count above 20 stat adds (when you got 17 or 18)?  Please edumicate.

And please, this is the GENERAL nwn forum so, indeed, explaining yourself will be required IF you make ridiculous claims and refuse to SHOW how you did it, step by step.  I am not an ignorant with builds as i have played and discussed with the BEST in nwn over 7 years.  Without explaination, i could tell you that i did a pure cleric with dev crit, warding, ema, mantle and 65 AB with 90 AC (which i did) but you could NEVER figure it out without more explaination. 

Please remember the General forums are for education, not trying to sound smarter than you are.  Like Shia says, show us how you did all this, then we can believe you!  Otherwise, as far as i am concerned, you are blowing smoke up our butts!

Just for clarification, my suggested cleric above does exist.  I built him years ago to solve a particular issue i had on a PW that is no longer the same. 

http://nwn.bioware.c...283691&gid=8061
(while he lasts at the ecb in old bioware forums).

The way i see it, if you can do all you say, you should be PROUD to show it off. 

[qaerinju]

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shapechange

[avado]

qaerinju wrote...

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shapechange

SOrry but that doesnt show how you can take a character and end wit 18 wisdom, 29 charisma and dex of 36 (for your +19 dex ac boost).  Con-man?  i guess so.

[Rich J]

Wow, quite a lot of spellcaster info.



I've given up on Wiz 10/ PM 30, because you can't get 6th-level or higher spells. Supposedly you can do metamagic spells and get maximized offensive spells at 8th level, but who cares about that?



I did a Cleric 25 / sorc 1 / RDD 10 (up to level 36 before I got bored), it really rocked. AB of +74 and routine damage of over 100/hit, criticals up to like 280 hp. This combo is hard to beat, although as others mentiones on here, a sorc 4 or bard 4 is fine in theory.



I'm gonna try the Cleric / Sorc / RDD with more than 4 levels of Sorc, just not sure exactly how to divide the ability points. Probably WIS 20, CHA 16, STR 26 with something like Cleric 21 / Sorc 9 / RDD 10. This build allows lvl 4 elemental shield and lvl 5 magic shield, and when you have both on, with a decent melee character, it should be pretty good right?

[qaerinju]

Rich J wrote...

I've given up on Wiz 10/ PM 30, because you can't get 6th-level or higher spells. Supposedly you can do metamagic spells and get maximized offensive spells at 8th level, but who cares about that?

You can get whatever spells you want provided scrolls are available. In default NWN that build is pointless but there are servers that make it viable by allowing PM levels as caster levels and/or boosting the PM summons.

[Shia Luck]

Rich J wrote...

Wow, quite a lot of spellcaster info.

I've given up on Wiz 10/ PM 30, because you can't get 6th-level or higher spells.

You are misinformed about something...  Ahhh I think you are forgetting that every 2 PM levels is like getting 1 wiz lvl as far as spells per day are concerned.  W10/PM30 is therefore like w25 for spells / day (and it is capped at lvl20 so you get all possible spells per day).

PM30 does not count as +w15 as far as caster level is concerned so damage die are few and duration small. Stick to instant effect spells preferably with no or very difficult saves. Bigby's hands are good choices.

The PM30 summons is a lot of fun... most interesting summons in the game imho.   Can self heal, has lots of nasty spells including greater ruin... extended haste it yourself for best effect.

I'm gonna try the Cleric / Sorc / RDD with more than 4 levels of Sorc, just not sure exactly how to divide the ability points. Probably WIS 20, CHA 16, STR 26 with something like Cleric 21 / Sorc 9 / RDD 10. This build allows lvl 4 elemental shield and lvl 5 magic shield, and when you have both on, with a decent melee character, it should be pretty good right?

well....   For the magic shield tactic to work you want to be getting hit. You also want Damage Reduction which is not a big feature of this build. And to get sorc 9 you are giving up lots of cleric bonus feats and undispellability. And with only 9 sorc levels, the shields wont do that much damage.

I'd say high lvl sorc with cleric 1 or 2 or pal/Bg4 (to get divine shield and might even) with max CHA would work best with the magic shield tactic.  Expertise and divine shield will allow you to adjust AC as you battle, Epic warding and shapechange and premonition give you DR options and you'll have sorc offensive spells with full DC. Also the magic shields will be doing a lot of damage if sorc lvl is 35+. 

Have fun :happy: 

[Shadooow]

Shia Luck wrote...
You are misinformed about something...  Ahhh I think you are forgetting
that every 2 PM levels is like getting 1 wiz lvl as far as spells per
day are concerned.  W10/PM30 is therefore like w25 for spells / day (and
it is capped at lvl20 so you get all possible spells per day).

PM30
does not count as +w15 as far as caster level is concerned so damage
die are few and duration small. Stick to instant effect spells
preferably with no or very difficult saves. Bigby's hands are good
choices.

The PM30 summons is a lot
of fun... most interesting summons in the game imho.   Can self heal,
has lots of nasty spells including greater ruin... extended haste it
yourself for best effect.

Right, but with 30lvl PM you have by default caster level of 10, very short duration or low damage (wouldn't bother take damaging spell with this at all). The summon at 30 may be funny, but levelling this build is really not.

For single player modules, it's playable, but I would not recommend this build to you for persistent worlds until the Pale master class on that PW is somehow improved.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 04 septembre 2010 - 04:39 .

[Shia Luck]

Agreed. PM30 needs epic gloves of discipline then you can do Monk6/wiz4/PM30 and dual wield kamas tanking for the demi-lich. All spells need to be bigby's hands or darkness or invis and the like ... a few rounds to enable you to close on the enemy... oh and spell mantles, dispels etc.



But it's not a strong build by any means. Just fun to have a pet demi-Lich *grin*

[avado]

Rich J wrote...

I did a Cleric 25 / sorc 1 / RDD 10 (up to level 36 before I got bored), it really rocked. AB of +74 and routine damage of over 100/hit, criticals up to like 280 hp. This combo is hard to beat, although as others mentiones on here, a sorc 4 or bard 4 is fine in theory.

I'm gonna try the Cleric / Sorc / RDD with more than 4 levels of Sorc, just not sure exactly how to divide the ability points. Probably WIS 20, CHA 16, STR 26 with something like Cleric 21 / Sorc 9 / RDD 10. This build allows lvl 4 elemental shield and lvl 5 magic shield, and when you have both on, with a decent melee character, it should be pretty good right?

cleric sorc rdd isnt what was suggested (at least not by me).  The ONLY reason to use sorc to get rdd is playing a Paladin and NOT having align shifting.  Otherwise, bard gives you Tumble and UMD and DIs, which are some important skills (sorc cleric and rdd typically have the same skill set).   Tumble gives +8 ac (dodge) which is much more than 4 sorc lvls ever could give the build.

Shields are not a good enough reason to loose 4 cleric lvls.  Esp with the wimpy caster lvl.

charisma of 16 is ridiculous!  10 (after rdd +2 charisma) is more than enough.  You ARent taking sorc NOR bard for spells! 

I think you are mistaken about your AB too.  74 means you have a Naked AB of 54, which, with a 26+12=38 str alittle out of range.  What do i mean?  Assume cleric (25 bab) with 38 st (+14) and 3 ewf and 1 prowess = 43.

That's it.  Now you get +20 = 63 with NO WAY to get any more ab  THAT COUNTS!  The character sheet may say 70 but the game is capped, so your logs will only use 63.  Trust me!  In Epic character builders this was a well discussed topic for YEARS!  In PRC you could get AB of 80's on character sheet (even seen 100ab), alas they arent real. 

Just so we are clear, True strike will NOT add to your ab!  It is meant for wizards to boost ab if they needed it. +20 does not increase the cap and if you are capped already, you just wasted a spell. 

From your comment, i fear i just wasted my breathe as you seem to think sorc>bard in this example (which it is not by a LOOOOONNNNNGGGGG shot), but i thought id try to give you the real deal perspective.

Good luck