61 réponses à ce sujet

[Elvhen Veluthil]

Actually the mages rule Tevinter Imperium, which I believe is still the largest kingdom in Thedas. In the past they conquered almost all Thedas and even brought the downfall of the elves (which was a really bad thing to do from their part). So there is still hope that the other will follow their example in the other kingdoms

About what is preventing them, I'd say that's the qunari threat in the east of Tevinter. All their resources had gonne to defend and halt their advancment.

Modifié par Elvhen Veluthil, 18 décembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[Super_Cat]

Despite all the Templars and Chantry and the like, I think the real reason they don't take over is unity. Not all mages think the same way. Wynne for example is pretty devout to the Chantry, and there are probably man more mages like that.



If all mages worked together, they could easily conquer Thedas. You can hear about the different brotherhoods in the Mage origin and how they all have different ideas on being a mage.

[Guns]

bioware_fan wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

The Console Version is good wrote...

Oh now I remember, It has been a while since I played Dragon age. Ahh I guess my Dreams of a Mage uprising will never happen.

Oh, I wouldn't rule that out. Who knows what will happen in the future? Eventually the mages are going to get tired of being under the Chantry's thumb, especially, say, if they were to discover Andraste was actually a mage herself..

Everebody knows Andraste was a mage .

Andraste wasn't a mage... she was a slave to Tevinter Imperium mages. She used a sword and was a prophet with or without holy powers depending on your beliefs.

[Mage One]

I think the biggest issue stopping them is that they don't agree on too much. They may be all be magi, but that doesn't mean they all think the chantry is wrong or the benefits of rising up outweigh the risks. Even among those who would want to rise up against the Chantry, they don't necessarily agree with each other on what the best next step should be. Do they just break free of the Chantry? Do they take over? If they take over, what should the country they create look like?
Magi share a common circumstance but not necessarily a common ideology.

EDIT to avoid double-post.

Guns wrote...

Andraste wasn't a mage... she was a slave to
Tevinter Imperium mages. She used a sword and was a prophet with or
without holy powers depending on your beliefs.

Actually,
in Origins you can find some ancient documents and research that
suggest Andraste was, in fact, a powerful mage, and that this was the
source of her powers.

Modifié par Mage One, 19 décembre 2010 - 10:13 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Guns wrote...

bioware_fan wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

The Console Version is good wrote...

Oh now I remember, It has been a while since I played Dragon age. Ahh I guess my Dreams of a Mage uprising will never happen.

Oh, I wouldn't rule that out. Who knows what will happen in the future? Eventually the mages are going to get tired of being under the Chantry's thumb, especially, say, if they were to discover Andraste was actually a mage herself..

Everebody knows Andraste was a mage .

Andraste wasn't a mage... she was a slave to Tevinter Imperium mages. She used a sword and was a prophet with or without holy powers depending on your beliefs.

Dude she was a mage, a very powerful mage. Whether or not she was the makers chosen remains to be seen.

[Skilled Seeker]

Mages need to be kept under control. Othewise they have absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Look at Tevinter. Therefore a governing body aka Templars is required to keep order.

[Eclipse_9990]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Mages need to be kept under control. Othewise they have absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Look at Tevinter. Therefore a governing body aka Templars is required to keep order.

Oh come on. Tevinter is like the most powerful country in thedas, sure they may have some bad stuff(slavery). But the other countries arent exactly saints either(Antiva, Orlais).

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 19 décembre 2010 - 11:10 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

For the most part, plot induced stupidity.

[Skilled Seeker]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Mages need to be kept under control. Othewise they have absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Look at Tevinter. Therefore a governing body aka Templars is required to keep order.

Oh come on. Tevinter is like the most powerful country in thedas, sure they may have some bad stuff(slavery). But the other countries arent exactly saints either(Antiva, Orlais).

Magic allows you to be capable of far greater destruction. Tevinter is responsible for the majority of destruction that has taken place in Thedas. Therefore magic needs to be reined in.

Magic is like civilian ownership of guns, there needs to be control.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 19 décembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Mages need to be kept under control. Othewise they have absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Look at Tevinter. Therefore a governing body aka Templars is required to keep order.

Oh come on. Tevinter is like the most powerful country in thedas, sure they may have some bad stuff(slavery). But the other countries arent exactly saints either(Antiva, Orlais).

Magic allows you to be capable of far greater destruction. Tevinter is responsible for the majority of destruction that has taken place in Thedas. Therefore magic needs to be reined in.

Magic is like civilian ownership of guns, there needs to be control.

But why shouldnt mages rule? If natural selection works in Dragon Age like it works in our world it makes sense for mages to rule over the others.

I mean who's the most powerful? Mages. Who's the most educated? Mages. Who's the wisest? Mages. I mean There was a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was the most powerful nation for so long, and not just because of blood magic.

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 19 décembre 2010 - 11:48 .

[Xewaka]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

But why shouldnt mages rule? If natural selection works in Dragon Age like it works in our world it makes sense for mages to rule over the others.

I mean who's the most powerful? Mages. Who's the most educated? Mages. Who's the wisest? Mages. I mean There was a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was the most powerful nation for so long, and not just because of blood magic.

Who are the most likely to lose control, be possessed and turned into a nightmarish monster, and become raving engines of destruction? Magi. Would you like to have a tykebomb ruling you? Me neither.

Besides, the fact it took two exalted marches to beat back the Qunari proves that Cannons > Magi.
Cheer the new age of technology!

Modifié par Xewaka, 19 décembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Xewaka wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

But why shouldnt mages rule? If natural selection works in Dragon Age like it works in our world it makes sense for mages to rule over the others.

I mean who's the most powerful? Mages. Who's the most educated? Mages. Who's the wisest? Mages. I mean There was a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was the most powerful nation for so long, and not just because of blood magic.

Who are the most likely to lose control, be possessed and turned into a nightmarish monster, and become raving engines of destruction? Magi. Would you like to have a tykebomb ruling you? Me neither.

Besides, the fact it took two exalted marches to beat back the Qunari proves that Cannons > Magi.
Cheer the new age of technology!

Lol you do know that abominations are extremely rare right? Besides what would you rather have?  A cannon? Or the ability to rain fireballs over an entire army? I'll choose the fireballs.
Also techonlogy alone is fine and dandy but technology combined with magic. Imagine the nuclear bomb if it was bolstered with magic. *shudders*

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Mages need to be kept under control. Othewise they have absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Look at Tevinter. Therefore a governing body aka Templars is required to keep order.

Oh come on. Tevinter is like the most powerful country in thedas, sure they may have some bad stuff(slavery). But the other countries arent exactly saints either(Antiva, Orlais).

Magic allows you to be capable of far greater destruction. Tevinter is responsible for the majority of destruction that has taken place in Thedas. Therefore magic needs to be reined in.

Magic is like civilian ownership of guns, there needs to be control.

Ehh...no. So many things wrong with your arguement I don't know where to begin....

But the old "power corrupts" is about as logical as saying "high intelligence corrupts" or "natural talent corrupts". Possesing some extraordinary attribute or skill does not corrupt. The persons own person attitudes, motives, or methods corrupt. Mages would not have absolute power. Nor would they necessarily want that. We see enough non-mages corrupted by their own doing when wielding power. It's a non-starter arguement.

We also see examples of mages outside of the Chantry's reach who are neither abominations, nor are plotting to take over the world. In game, in fact, I see way more abominations and mages gone mad within the Circle than I do outside it. The fact that on average, the templars perform an annulment on a circle once every 30 to 40 years, which is pretty often, considering that's like once a generation. That's not counting major other problems occuring within a circle. The annulment means a total, irreversible meltdown in the Chantry's containment system.

And interestingly, it is because of the Chantry's oppression and imprisonment of mages that Uldred's total revolt succeeded as it did. Uldred got so many converts/followers on the premise that he cooked up a deal with Loghain to get more freedom from the Chantry. Had things not been so oppressive, there would be far fewer supporters, since most mages generally are like the average person: no real interest or ambition in politics and ruling. Magic is not power to them, it is a part of what they are, and they are more interested in furthering the knowledge and practice of their talent than they are taking over the world.

The Chantry, if anything, needs a leash on it, since they have a fondness for starting wars against non-believers on extremely shaky grounds. They also seem to supress or forbid alot of magic practices beyond blood magic for no discernable reason other than some vague superstitous opinion that it might be bad. Morrigan's shapeshifting convo says something to this effect.

[Eclipse_9990]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Mages need to be kept under control. Othewise they have absolute power and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Look at Tevinter. Therefore a governing body aka Templars is required to keep order.

Oh come on. Tevinter is like the most powerful country in thedas, sure they may have some bad stuff(slavery). But the other countries arent exactly saints either(Antiva, Orlais).

Magic allows you to be capable of far greater destruction. Tevinter is responsible for the majority of destruction that has taken place in Thedas. Therefore magic needs to be reined in.

Magic is like civilian ownership of guns, there needs to be control.

Ehh...no. So many things wrong with your arguement I don't know where to begin....

But the old "power corrupts" is about as logical as saying "high intelligence corrupts" or "natural talent corrupts". Possesing some extraordinary attribute or skill does not corrupt. The persons own person attitudes, motives, or methods corrupt. Mages would not have absolute power. Nor would they necessarily want that. We see enough non-mages corrupted by their own doing when wielding power. It's a non-starter arguement.

We also see examples of mages outside of the Chantry's reach who are neither abominations, nor are plotting to take over the world. In game, in fact, I see way more abominations and mages gone mad within the Circle than I do outside it. The fact that on average, the templars perform an annulment on a circle once every 30 to 40 years, which is pretty often, considering that's like once a generation. That's not counting major other problems occuring within a circle. The annulment means a total, irreversible meltdown in the Chantry's containment system.

And interestingly, it is because of the Chantry's oppression and imprisonment of mages that Uldred's total revolt succeeded as it did. Uldred got so many converts/followers on the premise that he cooked up a deal with Loghain to get more freedom from the Chantry. Had things not been so oppressive, there would be far fewer supporters, since most mages generally are like the average person: no real interest or ambition in politics and ruling. Magic is not power to them, it is a part of what they are, and they are more interested in furthering the knowledge and practice of their talent than they are taking over the world.

The Chantry, if anything, needs a leash on it, since they have a fondness for starting wars against non-believers on extremely shaky grounds. They also seem to supress or forbid alot of magic practices beyond blood magic for no discernable reason other than some vague superstitous opinion that it might be bad. Morrigan's shapeshifting convo says something to this effect.

Yes! Thank you. I wanted to mention how corrupt the chantry was also, but I didn't have the words to do so. Thanks for your input.

[What is this]

i

Modifié par What is this, 20 décembre 2010 - 12:09 .

[PrinceOfFallout13]

from what i have seen in game mages and the chantry are both at fault so its a really gray area decide whats better for who im pro chantry but against their methods of controlling the mages but idk too much power on a person can be a bad thing unless they are like wynne or irving

[errant_knight]

wikkedjoker wrote...

The Console Version is good wrote...

Considering how poweful they seem to be why dont they break off the chains of oppression and take over?

I think generally they just wanna live as peacefully as they can with non-mages.

Even thought the Templar's can be brutal, the circle is a good idea in premise. It takes new mages there and teaches them in an environment that is as safe as it can be.

And there is the abominations, I mean all mages risk becoming one, so I can see why they would want to stop demons form taking control of a mage and destroying everything. Even the mages themselves fear this.

I think its a compromise or sorts. The Circles get the resources they need to train mages, and keep them form killing people and in return they are sent to areas away from the public.    

It might not be the right answer or the best one, but it is all they have at the moment.  Its much better than killing them all.

Yep. And having a populace that's terrified of mages would just lead to anarchy and an end result of somthing like the Qun or the Imperium, depending on which side emerged victorious from the bloodbath. The Chantry's solution isn't perfect, by any means, but it's the best option available at the moment. Most mages probably don't want their countries to come apart at the seams.

Modifié par errant_knight, 20 décembre 2010 - 01:42 .

[Maria Caliban]

Elvhen Veluthil wrote...

Actually the mages rule Tevinter Imperium, which I believe is still the largest kingdom in Thedas. In the past they conquered almost all Thedas and even brought the downfall of the elves (which was a really bad thing to do from their part). So there is still hope that the other will follow their example in the other kingdoms

About what is preventing them, I'd say that's the qunari threat in the east of Tevinter. All their resources had gonne to defend and halt their advancment.

Orlais is the largest kingdom in Thedas.

[Eclipse_9990]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

But why shouldnt mages rule? If natural selection works in Dragon Age like it works in our world it makes sense for mages to rule over the others.

I mean who's the most powerful? Mages. Who's the most educated? Mages. Who's the wisest? Mages. I mean There was a reason why the Tevinter Imperium was the most powerful nation for so long, and not just because of blood magic.

To quote A Beautiful Mind, "Your solution is elegant, but ultimately, incorrect."

Natural selection doesn't work like that in our world though.  In fact if you study natural natural selection it is often not the most intelligent or strongest species that survives, but the lucky one that was born with a certain trait that others weren't.  And that trait just happens to fit well with the current environment.

But in society, the overly strong "thug" criminal is kept in check by small men in blue uniforms with guns and tasers.  The genius investment banker who scams people out of billions of dollars is caught by large groups of lesser men who made his brilliant scheme illegal in the first place (they wish they'd thought of it).  And wisdom?  Wisdom got chucked out the window a long time ago as a leadership quality.  Any truly wise leader we put into power has his/her wisdom nullified by the large groups of lesser rulers beneath him who guard there common intersts.

So actually, DA works like the real world.  A large group of lesser people (Chantry + Templars + the prejudiced public) keep the mages from ruling.  This large group anulls mages if they get too powerful, banns education of certain topics if they get to intelligent, and out-vote or over rule any wisdom that comes out of the magi.

In closing - it makes NO sense that mages should rule, and it's not how it works in real life.

Well then it looks like its up to my Hawke to change these rules eh? I still believe that the most powerful, talented, and capable people should rule over the masses. Your right about groups of lesser men holding back the more capable, and worthy, and obviously this is where mage Hawke steps in. Hell one of the main theme's of DA2 is "Hawke changes the world".

[asaiasai]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

If anybody were going to practice thread necromancy, it would be a mage.

I see what you did there lol. Maybe we need a forum version of the chantry to oppress us and make sure we all behave ourselves and that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES shall we be allowed to question the authority of "The Woo" 

Asai  

[Kakistos_]

I don't think the mages want to rule, they just want equal rights, but if you want to be specific, mages cannot rule because they are ruled by the Chantry through the Templars who make their one advantage null. Even with the use of blood magic or another way to take on the Templars the mages would be at a disadvantage. As I understand it, mages are a minority and would have a difficult time acquiring the numbers to take on the vast Templar army as well as others who follow the Chantry.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Console Version is good wrote...

What is preventing the Mages from over running thedas?

The mages are being magnanimous.

[Jzadek72]

The Console Version is good wrote...

Oh now I remember, It has been a while since I played Dragon age. Ahh I guess my Dreams of a Mage uprising will never happen.

I think I've seen a fan theory that that'll happen in Kirkwall. I'm not sure whether it was just idle speculation, or had evidence to support it, though.