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[Bratt1204]

BigJas wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...
You've proven my point exactly - smug, condescending remarks - as always.

Hey, I'd hate to disappoint the whole martyr thing you've got going. Take it as a gift, by all means.

And what in the world does 'continuing a relationship with Alistair' have anything to do with my post? I'm sorry, did I miss something in MY own post that I was not aware of? 

You didn't pop into existence in this thread. I'm well aware of the melodramatic threads you posted in regarding the source of all your disappointment -- which is fine, I completely understand that we didn't live up to your expectations. Which is exactly my point. The fact that people might fear change isn't a suggestion that they're not going to feel completely justified for feeling as they do in the end, it's simply that the mere suggestion of it makes people leap to some very swift conclusions.

Which I'll assume is because people care so much. So that's a nice compliment. I hope in the end those people who are so fearful end up enjoying the game or, at the very least, give it a chance before they become determined to hate absolutely every last thing about it by association -- but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.

Expressing one's disappointment in a civilized manner is not being melodramatic - it is simply stating one's opinion. I apologize, perhaps I should consider being Lobotomized in order to improve your opinion of how I phrase my posts:blink:. I believe you are the one being melodramatic in your description of my past posts and it is actually quite rude. I have a very open mind in regards to change and creative new ideas and storyline - when they are indeed good ideas that make sense and have continuity.

Using Language like "crap expansions" (http://social.biowar...62382/2#3165328) and "trying to cram it down everyone's throat" (http://social.biowar...62382/4#3166541) doesn't sound very civilized me.

Edit: I should add that I too have some concerns but I'm also intrigued by the changes. Until I have more concrete information I'll take a neutral view.

Actually, it is a very civilized expression of my opinions but you are allowed your views, of course. 

[Captain Jazz]

Addai67 wrote...

Just feel like pointing out the obvious, that the reason some of us are lamenting the announced changes is precisely because we loved Origins.

I loved Baldur's Gate & Neverwinter Nights. Things have changed drastically since then. I still love Baldur's Gate & Neverwinter Nights, but I also love Origins. If they kept everything the same forever we would lose interest - I still play Baldur's Gate, but I'd be quite pissed off if Bioware released a brand new game which was exactly the same as their 12 year old flag ship. DA2 will be different, no doubt about that, but bioware have a long history of making excellent games and I see no reason to expect them to shaft themselves by departing from the trend.

[Games4ever]

I believe the greatest problem right now for the Dev's are, there being created too many threads with meaningless contents,because there are simply not enough meaningful stuff to talk about yet

[In Exile]

The real question is what is a game breaker for you, simple as that. Bioware is working hard to design the kind of games they think are great, but to a certain extent I think people have a mistaken perception of the kinds of things Bioware think are absolutely central to their RPGs.

Bioware designed 3 "true" isometric fantasy games: BG/BGII and DA. NWN had elements of being isometric, but initially it was a multiplayer D&D platform. There was a dramatic depature between BG and NWN in terms of what the game did - at release, we had multiplayer, a weak story, no party, etc.

Beyond these games,Bioware has made (in order) KoTOR, JE, ME. All these were games that were not particularly isometric and not RPG like in gameplay. What all of these games had in common were the strength of their story and the focus on creating a rich world. This was the tradition Bioware took with them.

I remember followng the development of DA:O, which people now hail as a great RPG, and remember all the complaints leveled at it for not being a BG2 clone. "Why can't we attack anyone?" "The Origins will wreck role-playing - I want to be able to use any background!" "Why can't I use other party members to speak?" "Level scaling has no place in an RPG!" and so on.

I don't know whether those people were satisfied with DA; I know I was precisely because those features were never important to me in the first place. I'm not sure if the people who are dissatisfied today wanted those features,

What I can say is that Bioware's history shows them to be uncompromising only on certain parts of the design. Story, characters, the rich world, choice - these are things that Bioware has decided to define itself by, and every game they've made has had these elements, which they have worked to constantly refine. Bioware won't compromise their core vision, which is why I respect them as developers. I just think not everyone can appreciate what that core vision is, and why they design games in the first place.

[David Gaider]

In Exile wrote...
I remember followng the development of DA:O, which people now hail as a great RPG, and remember all the complaints leveled at it for not being a BG2 clone. "Why can't we attack anyone?" "The Origins will wreck role-playing - I want to be able to use any background!" "Why can't I use other party members to speak?" "Level scaling has no place in an RPG!" and so on.

Indeed. Some people seem to act as if the reaction here was something new and shocking, or that the expectations are different because it's a sequel as opposed to the "spiritual sequel" of Baldur's Gate. Not really so. People are always going to have their own dealbreakers, and will undoubtedly argue with us as to what they think we should value most about our own design-- but the response is always the same: in the absence of evidence there's always an element of outraged speculation.

I don't know whether those people were satisfied with DA

I assume that many of the people who weren't satisfied with DAO simply moved on. Not every game is going to be to everyone's tastes, and just because you hang out on these forums doesn't mean that we demand that you like what we're doing. We hope you do, and we're doing our best to implement our vision, and in the end we hope you'll see what we're getting at-- but our fans cover a wide range of interests and will like our games for very different reasons. The decision will be yours as to whether or not this game's for you.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 juillet 2010 - 06:14 .

[Games4ever]

DA:O was great,hands down

Just hope DA2 will be even better

[BallaZs]

Games4ever wrote...

DA:O was great,hands down

Agreed.
Compared to the infos I know so far, DA2 is going to be epic

[WilliamShatner]

David Gaider wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I remember followng the development of DA:O, which people now hail as a great RPG, and remember all the complaints leveled at it for not being a BG2 clone. "Why can't we attack anyone?" "The Origins will wreck role-playing - I want to be able to use any background!" "Why can't I use other party members to speak?" "Level scaling has no place in an RPG!" and so on.

Indeed. Some people seem to act as if the reaction here was something new and shocking, or that the expectations are different because it's a sequel as opposed to the "spiritual sequel" of Baldur's Gate. Not really so. People are always going to have their own dealbreakers, and will undoubtedly argue with us as to what they think we should value most about our own design-- but the response is always the same: in the absence of evidence there's always an element of outraged speculation.

 

Your company brought this on themselves I'm afraid.  You announced the game with a list of controversial changes but without any evidence of how they will improve the game.  You can't condemn people's opinion of the game as "outraged speculation" when you haven't given them any evidence to the contrary.  I highy recommend your marketing department get to work on gameplay videos highlighting why these change improve the game and pronto.  Frankly I wouldn't have announced anything until I had something to show people when I knew the changes I was making would be so divisive. 

[Stanley Woo]

i don't think you can provide any "evidence of how they will improve the game," because people's tastes and experiences are so subjective. i also don't think that expecting people to not be hysterical and freaking out of every perceived feature that "will inevitably destroy the game and ruing my sammich" is unreasonable of us. Putting the onus on us to ensure our fans don't jump to erroneous conclusions and parade them up and down the forums as evidence of even more ridiculous conspiracy theories is a little silly. You're all adults (presumably) with common sense (probably) and intelligence (likely); you can see the science for yourselves.

Frankly I wouldn't have announced anything until I had something to show people when I knew the changes I was making would be so divisive.

That goes both way, i'm afraid, WilliamShatner. Frankly, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about the game until I had more information when I knew I was super passionate about my previous game experience and didn't want anything to change.



the game isn't coming out tomorrow, and what we've announced is not the be-all and end-all of what DA2 is going to be. Stick around, listen to us talk more about the game, then decide for yourselves. Better yet, keep and open mind and play the game before deciding whether you had jumped to conclusions or we gave you bad info.

[David Gaider]

WilliamShatner wrote...
You can't condemn people's opinion of the game as "outraged speculation" when you haven't given them any evidence to the contrary. 

Who's condemning? I'm simply saying it happens-- we're never going to flood the fans with the amount of information they want immediately upon announcement. Thus this is not unfamiliar territory.

I highy recommend your marketing department get to work on gameplay videos highlighting why these change improve the game and pronto.  Frankly I wouldn't have announced anything until I had something to show people when I knew the changes I was making would be so divisive. 

If the sole purpose of our marketing department was to win over the fans on these forums, I'd agree with you. As it is, I'm sure the information you're looking for will come out in time-- as with Origins I imagine they'll take their time speaking to each part of our target audience in turn, and I'm certain that the ardent fans will get their moment. For now, it's just an announcement. I recognize that there's anxiety, and by all means some of it is understandable, but all I've ever said is that you might be better advised withholding judgment until the information mill begins to churn. Many people will not, of course, but as I said before that's inevitable regardless.

[boojae]

This forum is kind of a scary place, which is why it's taken me a while to get around to making my first post. I'm kind of glad it's in a thread that is at least attempting to give the devs some love that they deserve.

DAO was a fantastic game, and I have the utmost faith in the team behind it; that, whatever direction they have decided to travel in, they will make us another great game. It will not be a clone of the first game, and that is a good thing. Things need to change and evolve, or they stagnate, and then everyone would be complaining that the devs are being lazy instead of the They Changed It Now It Sucks grumbling that I've seen around so far.

I am prepared to be wowed and am looking forward to the trailer, which comes out just a few days before my birthday. What a lovely present. Wow me, Bioware!

[iTomes]

"Frankly I wouldn't have announced anything until I had something to show people when I knew the changes I was making would be so divisive."



well if they would've announce it 3-4 months before it was actually coming out many would have said "baahhh how long was it in development when they are announcing it now??""why wasn't it announced earlier""gnahgnahgna!"

[bjdbwea]

In Exile wrote...

I remember followng the development of DA:O, which people now hail as a great RPG, and remember all the complaints leveled at it for not being a BG2 clone. "Why can't we attack anyone?" "The Origins will wreck role-playing - I want to be able to use any background!" "Why can't I use other party members to speak?" "Level scaling has no place in an RPG!" and so on.

Most of those arguments were valid, and still are. It still turned out to be an RPG, and a good game. Just not as much RPG and not as good a game as BG 2. Unfortunately, what we know of DA 2 so far, it moves even further in that other direction.

[WilliamShatner]

Stanley Woo wrote...

i don't think you can provide any "evidence of how they will improve the game," because people's tastes and experiences are so subjective. i also don't think that expecting people to not be hysterical and freaking out of every perceived feature that "will inevitably destroy the game and ruing my sammich" is unreasonable of us. Putting the onus on us to ensure our fans don't jump to erroneous conclusions and parade them up and down the forums as evidence of even more ridiculous conspiracy theories is a little silly. You're all adults (presumably) with common sense (probably) and intelligence (likely); you can see the science for yourselves.

There are several dev posts on this forum telling us how better they believe the game will be.  The Game Informer article was a 8 page declaration on how awesome the new game is and how everyone who loved Dragon Age: Origins is archaic and living in the stone age.  Yes, not everyone will like the changes regardless of their quality but everyone would have had a better idea had these announced changes been backed up with something tangible. 

That goes both way, i'm afraid, WilliamShatner. Frankly, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about the game until I had more information when I knew I was super passionate about my previous game experience and didn't want anything to change.

Sadly Mr. Woo Mass Effect 2 broke my heart and Awakening was gutted of everything I loved about DA:O.  With your company's past two games being big disappointments for me, perhaps you can see why I can't quite work on blind faith in regards to what has so far been announced.  

the game isn't coming out tomorrow, and what we've announced is not the be-all and end-all of what DA2 is going to be. Stick around, listen to us talk more about the game, then decide for yourselves. Better yet, keep and open mind and play the game before deciding whether you had jumped to conclusions or we gave you bad info.

In other words "Give us your $60." 

[mmmu]

Personally I don't think Bioware has ever done a bad game and I place my absolute trust in them in making the greatest games on our planet today. I have no concerns regarding DA 2 and am merely anxiously waiting its arrival!

Happy Bioware is a happy thing  .

[In Exile]

bjdbwea wrote...

Most of those arguments were valid, and still are. It still turned out to be an RPG, and a good game. Just not as much RPG and not as good a game as BG 2. Unfortunately, what we know of DA 2 so far, it moves even further in that other direction.

The point I am making is simply that Bioware does not consider these features important. Put another way: on the old DA forum, the gripe was that DA was not BG2. Now, on the DA2 forum, the gripe is that DA2 is not DA. I appreciate that everyone has their favourite game design, and wants that game remade with a new story 10 times over, but Bioware happens not to agree.

I understand fans being upset; what I don't understand are fans being outraged at Bioware. It's not as if they're breaking into homes and replacing DA with some altered version. They simply do not want to make a DA clone, like they didn't want to make a BG clone. And I can't comprehend how either is a betrayal.

[In Exile]

Double post. Sowwy.

Modifié par In Exile, 20 juillet 2010 - 09:44 .

[Jackal904]

I completely agree with the OP. BioWare has put so much effort into delivering incredible game after incredible game, the fans need to have some faith. I understand their concerns but it frustrates me when people act so ungrateful for everything BioWare has done and are doing. People need to calm down, get off their high horse, and wait for some more information about the game before they start raging.

[In Exile]

WilliamShatner wrote...

There are several dev posts on this forum telling us how better they believe the game will be.  The Game Informer article was a 8 page declaration on how awesome the new game is and how everyone who loved Dragon Age: Origins is archaic and living in the stone age.  Yes, not everyone will like the changes regardless of their quality but everyone would have had a better idea had these announced changes been backed up with something tangible. 

That seems to be an unfair characterization. What they did say was that they thought those features were archaic. And so they are producing a game without them. Like they produced Dragon Age without those features they thought were archaic in BG II. And like they produced BG II without those features they thought were archaic in BG. And so on.

Sadly Mr. Woo Mass Effect 2 broke my heart and Awakening was gutted of everything I loved about DA:O.  With your company's past two games being big disappointments for me, perhaps you can see why I can't quite work on blind faith in regards to what has so far been announced. 

I will never appreciate the Mass Effect 2 complains because I simply cannot see the RPG in Mass Effect. Persuade was handled terribly in ME; they handled it terribly in a different way in ME2. Shooting was broken in ME; so they removed the shooting skills. And they compressed the scale on the skills. All of that is effectively keeping the design the same with minor tweaks.

What was a poor move was the removal of the inventory. That I agree with. But I cannot see how ME2 is less of an RPG than ME, when from these gameplay conventions, neither was ME.

I mean, they removed full party control after X06 from ME and revamped the UI, so it is not as if they weren't heading in this exact direction with ME.

[Merllle]

I do agree with the purpose of this thread. As a rabid BioWare fangirl over the past 10 years, I think we should cuddle up to our devs once in a while and show that, despite all the criticism, we really support and love them for what they have delivered us and will, hopefully, continue to deliver.



So, GO, DEV TEAM, GO GO! Make us an awesome game! This little Merle cheer team is rooting for you!!~

[LarryDavid]

I remember the time where people were whining about the fact that the MC wasn't going to be voiced. Now it seems to be the other way around as with a lot of other things. To offer some continuity maybe one could open a thread about not buying the game unless it has horses in it.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

I will never appreciate the Mass Effect 2 complains because I simply cannot see the RPG in Mass Effect.

And yet Mass Effect is being held up as some kind of model for how dialogue and flow should work in DA2.

[Addai]

LarryDavid wrote...

I remember the time where people were whining about the fact that the MC wasn't going to be voiced. Now it seems to be the other way around as with a lot of other things. To offer some continuity maybe one could open a thread about not buying the game unless it has horses in it.

Who was whining?  I saw several threads like that, but there were as many of us saying "hell no" as supporting the idea.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
And yet Mass Effect is being held up as some kind of model for how dialogue and flow should work in DA2.

I was talking from a gameplay standpoint. In fact, I said as much.

You know full well I think ME had the superior dialogue system for any RPG.