454 réponses à ce sujet

[WilliamShatner]

In Exile wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

There are several dev posts on this forum telling us how better they believe the game will be.  The Game Informer article was a 8 page declaration on how awesome the new game is and how everyone who loved Dragon Age: Origins is archaic and living in the stone age.  Yes, not everyone will like the changes regardless of their quality but everyone would have had a better idea had these announced changes been backed up with something tangible. 

That seems to be an unfair characterization. What they did say was that they thought those features were archaic. And so they are producing a game without them. Like they produced Dragon Age without those features they thought were archaic in BG II. And like they produced BG II without those features they thought were archaic in BG. And so on.

Sadly Mr. Woo Mass Effect 2 broke my heart and Awakening was gutted of everything I loved about DA:O.  With your company's past two games being big disappointments for me, perhaps you can see why I can't quite work on blind faith in regards to what has so far been announced. 

I will never appreciate the Mass Effect 2 complains because I simply cannot see the RPG in Mass Effect. Persuade was handled terribly in ME; they handled it terribly in a different way in ME2. Shooting was broken in ME; so they removed the shooting skills. And they compressed the scale on the skills. All of that is effectively keeping the design the same with minor tweaks.

What was a poor move was the removal of the inventory. That I agree with. But I cannot see how ME2 is less of an RPG than ME, when from these gameplay conventions, neither was ME.

I mean, they removed full party control after X06 from ME and revamped the UI, so it is not as if they weren't heading in this exact direction with ME.

The gameplay changes didn't break my heart.

The story, characters and near complete disregard to what I did in Mass Effect did.

The gameplay changes may have disappointed me but I would have been able to overlook them had the things most important to be had been done right.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And yet Mass Effect is being held up as some kind of model for how dialogue and flow should work in DA2.

I was talking from a gameplay standpoint. In fact, I said as much.

You know full well I think ME had the superior dialogue system for any RPG.

You just said ME1 wasn't RPG?

[Dagiz]

I am Voting for Gaider/Woo in my next presidential election.

Can you both become US citizens so we can make this happen?

Trying to make sense in a forum atmosphere is like trying to make sense in politics.  Therefore I figure you both would be naturals in public office. 

I'll throw my two cents and then leave hastily before I say something mean to someone.

I remember all the bashing that NWN2 got before it came out.  And then I  remember everyone falling in love with it.  And I  remember the same people who bashed it and said that Obsidian was ruinning the game defend the game to the fullest.  

I  remember when DA was first announced the excitement.  I remember as we learned more and more people begin complaining.  Than I remember those same people defending the game they played through.  

I remember that every single video game that has ever been made the people that bash, complain, moan, and cry about how company X is ruinning their game and that after they buy the game and actually play though it they grudgingly like it.  

I remember when Priestly was an evil git and Woo was the Ninja Woo...oh wait they still are.  Oh wait...everything I just wrote happens every single time a new game comes out.  rinse and repeat. 

I think the apocalypse happens if people actually don't complain about a new addition to a game they like and everyone agrees that its the best thing ever.  It's in the Book of Revelations I am sure of it. 

[London]

I'm just chiming in my support of the Dev's. They created a great product and after only one fan, I'm a huge fan of their team. I haven't played any other Bioware game because the concepts do not appeal to me personally, but I'll follow this team from game to game as long as they stay with the series.



Even if they don't always have things to report that we want to hear, I also really appreciate their presence here on the boards. It's commendable, given the environment of anonymous boards.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
You just said ME1 wasn't RPG?

Talking about it from the standpoint of gameplay. Which I just said. Three times now.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
You just said ME1 wasn't RPG?

Talking about it from the standpoint of gameplay. Which I just said. Three times now.

And you don't consider the dialogue system and character development part of gameplay?  I'm confused.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
And you don't consider the dialogue system and character development part of gameplay?  I'm confused.

Yes. I don't. Gameplay, for me, refers specifically to the mechanism which drives the most game-y aspect, i.e. the combat. The dialogue is distinct from that, and character development again distinct from that. I thought this was the convetion, but apparently not.

[Bratt1204]

WilliamShatner wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

In Exile wrote...
I remember followng the development of DA:O, which people now hail as a great RPG, and remember all the complaints leveled at it for not being a BG2 clone. "Why can't we attack anyone?" "The Origins will wreck role-playing - I want to be able to use any background!" "Why can't I use other party members to speak?" "Level scaling has no place in an RPG!" and so on.

Indeed. Some people seem to act as if the reaction here was something new and shocking, or that the expectations are different because it's a sequel as opposed to the "spiritual sequel" of Baldur's Gate. Not really so. People are always going to have their own dealbreakers, and will undoubtedly argue with us as to what they think we should value most about our own design-- but the response is always the same: in the absence of evidence there's always an element of outraged speculation.

 

Your company brought this on themselves I'm afraid.  You announced the game with a list of controversial changes but without any evidence of how they will improve the game.  You can't condemn people's opinion of the game as "outraged speculation" when you haven't given them any evidence to the contrary.  I highy recommend your marketing department get to work on gameplay videos highlighting why these change improve the game and pronto.  Frankly I wouldn't have announced anything until I had something to show people when I knew the changes I was making would be so divisive. 

I agree.

[Bratt1204]

David Gaider wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...
You can't condemn people's opinion of the game as "outraged speculation" when you haven't given them any evidence to the contrary. 

Who's condemning? I'm simply saying it happens-- we're never going to flood the fans with the amount of information they want immediately upon announcement. Thus this is not unfamiliar territory.

I highy recommend your marketing department get to work on gameplay videos highlighting why these change improve the game and pronto.  Frankly I wouldn't have announced anything until I had something to show people when I knew the changes I was making would be so divisive. 

If the sole purpose of our marketing department was to win over the fans on these forums, I'd agree with you. As it is, I'm sure the information you're looking for will come out in time-- as with Origins I imagine they'll take their time speaking to each part of our target audience in turn, and I'm certain that the ardent fans will get their moment. For now, it's just an announcement. I recognize that there's anxiety, and by all means some of it is understandable, but all I've ever said is that you might be better advised withholding judgment until the information mill begins to churn. Many people will not, of course, but as I said before that's inevitable regardless.

Really? I thought we were consumers who purchased products developed and marketed by EA & Bioware?  

Modifié par Bratt1204, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:28 .

[Bratt1204]

WilliamShatner wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

i don't think you can provide any "evidence of how they will improve the game," because people's tastes and experiences are so subjective. i also don't think that expecting people to not be hysterical and freaking out of every perceived feature that "will inevitably destroy the game and ruing my sammich" is unreasonable of us. Putting the onus on us to ensure our fans don't jump to erroneous conclusions and parade them up and down the forums as evidence of even more ridiculous conspiracy theories is a little silly. You're all adults (presumably) with common sense (probably) and intelligence (likely); you can see the science for yourselves.

There are several dev posts on this forum telling us how better they believe the game will be.  The Game Informer article was a 8 page declaration on how awesome the new game is and how everyone who loved Dragon Age: Origins is archaic and living in the stone age.  Yes, not everyone will like the changes regardless of their quality but everyone would have had a better idea had these announced changes been backed up with something tangible. 

That goes both way, i'm afraid, WilliamShatner. Frankly, I wouldn't jump to any conclusions about the game until I had more information when I knew I was super passionate about my previous game experience and didn't want anything to change.

Sadly Mr. Woo Mass Effect 2 broke my heart and Awakening was gutted of everything I loved about DA:O.  With your company's past two games being big disappointments for me, perhaps you can see why I can't quite work on blind faith in regards to what has so far been announced.  

the game isn't coming out tomorrow, and what we've announced is not the be-all and end-all of what DA2 is going to be. Stick around, listen to us talk more about the game, then decide for yourselves. Better yet, keep and open mind and play the game before deciding whether you had jumped to conclusions or we gave you bad info.

In other words "Give us your $60." 

This.

[YohkoOhno]

Really? I thought we were consumers who purchased products developed and marketed by EA & Bioware?

Being a consumer does not require them to treat you like royalty.
Many people don't want to have a dialog with the devs, they want to write polemics, have a soapbox or engage in a monolouge, etc. In many cases, for lack of a better term, it seems some people expect the devs to engage in a form of verbal felatio instead of giving honest and frank opinions.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 20 juillet 2010 - 11:37 .

[Faust1979]

I am giving the developers full support! it's time for a change! for kotor, Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins it's all about this big bad guy, you have an intro level or two, then followed by several places you can play in random order and party camps. They all pretty much follow the same thing. The stories are always good but they're all pretty familiar. I for one am glad that the formula is being shaken up and that they are giving us a new experience. It's time for a change really while giving us what we love about Bioware games. Interaction and being able to level up or characters the way we see fit.

[Tirigon]

David Gaider wrote...

we're never going to flood the fans with the amount of information they want immediately upon announcement.

Might I know why?

I mean, I´m sure you have a good reason - only I can´t imagine what this reason may be, not even in my weirdest dreams.

[AntiChri5]

Tirigon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

we're never going to flood the fans with the amount of information they want immediately upon announcement.

Might I know why?

I mean, I´m sure you have a good reason - only I can´t imagine what this reason may be, not even in my weirdest dreams.

So we dont OD. 

Its to build up suspense and hype.

[Faust1979]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

we're never going to flood the fans with the amount of information they want immediately upon announcement.

Might I know why?

I mean, I´m sure you have a good reason - only I can´t imagine what this reason may be, not even in my weirdest dreams.

So we dont OD. 

Its to build up suspense and hype.

if they released to much info to soon I probably would get bored and might forget about it later on. I would rather they slowly leak out information

[Merllle]

Tirigon wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

we're never going to flood the fans with the amount of information they want immediately upon announcement.

Might I know why?

I mean, I´m sure you have a good reason - only I can´t imagine what this reason may be, not even in my weirdest dreams.

Because creating suspense and hype is so much better, don't you think? ;D

[Tirigon]

AntiChri5 wrote...

So we dont OD. 

Its to build up suspense and hype.

If you happen to be right I see this idea failing, considering that there are much more complaints about DA2 than hopes.

[Merllle]

Tirigon wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

So we dont OD. 

Its to build up suspense and hype.

If you happen to be right I see this idea failing, considering that there are much more complaints about DA2 than hopes.

Even a negative hype it's still a hype. And most of the times, it's bound to happen. I'll wait and see myself, BioWare has never personally disappointed me before... We wouldn't like this to be a first, BioWare, would we?

Modifié par Merllle, 21 juillet 2010 - 12:01 .

[WilliamShatner]

Merllle wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

So we dont OD. 

Its to build up suspense and hype.

If you happen to be right I see this idea failing, considering that there are much more complaints about DA2 than hopes.

Even a negative hype it's still a hype. And most of the times, it's bound to happen. I'll wait and see myself, BioWare has never personally disappointed me before... We wouldn't like this to be a first, BioWare, would we?

Negative hype is not a good thing.  It can effect sales drastically.  Ask the makers of Too Human, Two Worlds and Alpha Protocol.

Modifié par WilliamShatner, 21 juillet 2010 - 12:06 .

[AntiChri5]

Tirigon wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

So we dont OD. 

Its to build up suspense and hype.

If you happen to be right I see this idea failing, considering that there are much more complaints about DA2 than hopes.

They give us all of the......controversial changes first.

Give us time to accept them, then release the more "acceptable" information and we feel like it is a great gift.

[shedevil3001]

at the end of the day its their game they put all the work into it so they can do what they want, whether we like it or not, theres always gonna be those of us who dont like alot of things about the game and those that love it

[David Gaider]

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
If the sole purpose of our marketing department was to win over the fans on these forums, I'd agree with you.

Really? I thought we were consumers who purchased products developed and marketed by EA & Bioware?  

So which are you suggesting-- that our marketing department's sole purpose should be to win over the fans on these forums? Or that you believe the fans on these forums are representative of all consumers who purchase products developed by EA & BioWare? Because it really seems like your response is suggesting one of these things.

Modifié par David Gaider, 21 juillet 2010 - 12:14 .

[In Exile]

Marketing always goes for the part of the market that isn't the guaranteed market, so to speak. This forum will track development of the game on their own. Everyone is invested. The market department effectively has to lure everyone who has not yet discovered the game to generate interest. I, for example, didn't follow the development of the Wicher. Didn't even know there was a Witcher until I found the old dragon age boards. Their marketing department exists to lure in these consumers.

[In Exile]

Marketing always goes for the part of the market that isn't the guaranteed market, so to speak. This forum will track development of the game on their own. Everyone is invested. The market department effectively has to lure everyone who has not yet discovered the game to generate interest. I, for example, didn't follow the development of the Wicher. Didn't even know there was a Witcher until I found the old dragon age boards. Their marketing department exists to lure in these consumers.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I don't know, the changes made so far were a deal-breaker for me. I'm still not buying DA 2. I don't doubt it will be a fun game, I do doubt it will be as fun as DA:O for me. If DA 3 returns some of the freedoms of DA:O I might pick DA 2 up after playing DA 3, or I might just see how it ends on YouTube. If I want to be stuck playing a set character, I'll watch a movie.



As far as supporting the Devs, yeah, do that if you like their product. If you don't like the changes, you should be free to voice that as long as you don't resort to insults, name calling, ect. Bioware is still making a product for money, it's not like they make games out of the goodness in their hearts out of leprechaun smiles and puppydog tails. They are a good company, if they make a good product, they'll stay afloat. DA:O is a great game, DA 2...isn't looking so hot to me right now and I'm not the type to gobble up everything a company will feed me with a grin on my face because the namebrand has become cool.



DA 2 is likely way past the point of no return on these concepts they are pushing, that's why I'm crossing my fingers that DA 3 will return to a more creative emphasis on the player.