454 réponses à ce sujet

[bjdbwea]

Tirigon wrote...

Well, do you expect Gaider or someone else of BioWare to visit the haters and beg on their knees to support them or what?

First of all, I'd hope they do not label everyone who voices criticism as "hater". Second, I'd hope they don't use that or some other excuse to ignore any criticism. And third, it would be wise to think about where BioWare came from, who their fans are and what they like about their games. And to at least try and discuss this with EA. "Just make it easier accessible for the mainstream" can seem to be an easy way for more profits, but there are enough examples in the video gaming industry where in fact it wasn't that simple. And the sales numbers for ME 2 seem to show that too.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 21 juillet 2010 - 11:31 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
If the sole purpose of our marketing department was to win over the fans on these forums, I'd agree with you.

Really? I thought we were consumers who purchased products developed and marketed by EA & Bioware?  

So which are you suggesting-- that our marketing department's sole purpose should be to win over the fans on these forums? Or that you believe the fans on these forums are representative of all consumers who purchase products developed by EA & BioWare? Because it really seems like your response is suggesting one of these things.

That may certainly be your interpretation of my statement - however - you seem to stereotype everyone that 'hangs out on these forums' as childish groupies or fans instead of consumers who game developers rely on to buy your products. Because you are a writer for Bioware (and I certainly do appreciate your contributions), I suppose I should overlook your indifference to the importance of customer relations. 

I don't think you quite get it. The forum posters and people interested enough to follow a game prior to its launch very closely are a tiny minority.....lless than 1% of the people who ultimately buy the game. It would be ridiculously stupid of them to make decissions simply because of the internet whining briggade and ignore all the other 99% of their customers who ultimately make the game succeed or fail. You might say "but they shouldn't complain because they don't speak up" but that isn't the point. The point is to make the game appeal and please as many people as possible and that involves something called market research......it is the only way to determine what pleases the silent majority and no company would be as successful as BioWare without mastering this skill of knowing what people like.

Beyond that I am more than 100,000,000,000,000% happy with all announced changes and look forward to the game.

[UltraBoy360]

In Exile wrote...

WilliamShatner wrote...

Of course you are entitled to your opinion.  I just don't think much stock should be put into this silent portion of people who buy the game, play it, never touch it again and forget about it. 

But how do you know anything about this market? All that we know is that DA sold very well - comparable to ME. Bioware has most certainly tracked some data - the game is designed to do this if you let it, after all. They will most certainly try to cater to the taste of the people who enjoyed the game and are likely to rebuy, whle trying to attract potential markets.

The issue simply is that it is not entirely clear what features of DA:O were great. For example, I hated tactics and the lack of VO. I loved the isometric gameplay. I thought the origins were overhyped, and while well done, I happen to like humans and for aesthetic reasons can play as dwarves, so I want less dwarf content and more human/elf content.

Other people have other tastes.

Or people who thought Dragon Age: Origins was not for them.  Sorry if that is blunt or elitist, but then I also don't expect the developers of Saint's Row (for example) to cater for me or make the game accessible for me.  That type of game just isn't my thing.  I let the people who have a passion for that game like I do for several BioWare games have their game just the way they like it.

But how do we know they are catering to that group. Now that they've added VO, they are catering to me. I followed Mass Effect since I heard it was in development. I wanted them to change the mechanic to be either fully isometric RPG like DA or a true shooter, because I hate hybrid systems like in ME. They changed it to be more like a shooter.... so did they cater to me, or to people who thought ME was not for them?

This is the issue I have with what you are saying. In short, it is not entirely clear what specific parts of DA people liked. It's not entirely clear who liked what parts of ME2. I can appreciate that you felt betrayed, but that does not entitle you to tell others what DA should be.

I disdain people who don't like a series wanting to assimilate it into something they like. It's like Star Trek.  People who weren't fans of the show complained that the show/movies were boring.  So then they made the new movie an action movie for them disregarding nearly everything Trek was about and what made Trek Trek.  It's not like they didn't have Star Wars already. <_<

Oy vey. Look, it is possible to like certain things about Star Trek, yet disagree over the direction. It is not some betrayal. Do you think DS9 was a betrayal? As the dominion war geared up, Sisko became increasingly grey. I thought that was when the series was at its peak, and what Sisko did to get the Romulans to join the war - brilliant. But to some people that violates the idealism of Trek. Yet I consider myself a fan.

All of this boils down quite simply to no one have a right to say that a series is by divine fiat.

Man, that Dominion War arc in DS9 rocked. Totally Star Trek at it's best. Although... wait a minute... I loved the movie as well... and Mass Effect 2.... have I been assimilated by the dreaded 'mainstream'?

In Exile - you win for getting a Captain Sisko reference in this thread. Loving your work.

[Bratt1204]

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
If the sole purpose of our marketing department was to win over the fans on these forums, I'd agree with you.

Really? I thought we were consumers who purchased products developed and marketed by EA & Bioware?  

So which are you suggesting-- that our marketing department's sole purpose should be to win over the fans on these forums? Or that you believe the fans on these forums are representative of all consumers who purchase products developed by EA & BioWare? Because it really seems like your response is suggesting one of these things.

That may certainly be your interpretation of my statement - however - you seem to stereotype everyone that 'hangs out on these forums' as childish groupies or fans instead of consumers who game developers rely on to buy your products. Because you are a writer for Bioware (and I certainly do appreciate your contributions), I suppose I should overlook your indifference to the importance of customer relations. 

I don't think you quite get it. The forum posters and people interested enough to follow a game prior to its launch very closely are a tiny minority.....lless than 1% of the people who ultimately buy the game. It would be ridiculously stupid of them to make decissions simply because of the internet whining briggade and ignore all the other 99% of their customers who ultimately make the game succeed or fail. You might say "but they shouldn't complain because they don't speak up" but that isn't the point. The point is to make the game appeal and please as many people as possible and that involves something called market research......it is the only way to determine what pleases the silent majority and no company would be as successful as BioWare without mastering this skill of knowing what people like.

Beyond that I am more than 100,000,000,000,000% happy with all announced changes and look forward to the game.

It does not surprise me in the slightest that YOU don't seem to get it. And I just love your fabricated market share percentages, laughable - truly. Really, did you take those polls yourself?? Many individuals on THESE forums are also the same people who review games on a variety of other gaming sites and that is where other gamers usually go to read those reviews and decide whether or not a game is worth spending money on. I usually read at least 4 different game site reviews before I decide to buy a game. So, yes the consumer is whom is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a product. I am certainly not trying to damn DA:2 prior to its release in any way. I am simply discussing the fact that Bioware's track record for follow up material to DA:O was quite uninspiring (to say the least) and it seems as a if many people are loosing confidence as a result.

[Solid N7]

bjdbwea wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Well, do you expect Gaider or someone else of BioWare to visit the haters and beg on their knees to support them or what?

First of all, I'd hope they do not label everyone who voices criticism as "hater". Second, I'd hope they don't use that or some other excuse to ignore any criticism. And third, it would be wise to think about where BioWare came from, who their fans are and what they like about their games. And to at least try and discuss this with EA. "Just make it easier accessible for the mainstream" can seem to be an easy way for more profits, but there are enough examples in the video gaming industry where in fact it wasn't that simple. And the sales numbers for ME 2 seem to show that too.

Again ME2 sell numbers, first you need to understand that Mass Effect 2 is pc and 360 only when DA:O is multi pc, 360 and ps3 is obvious that is going to sell better all the haters seems  to forget this fact.

Modifié par Solid N7, 21 juillet 2010 - 04:49 .

[Solid N7]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
If the sole purpose of our marketing department was to win over the fans on these forums, I'd agree with you.

Really? I thought we were consumers who purchased products developed and marketed by EA & Bioware?  

So which are you suggesting-- that our marketing department's sole purpose should be to win over the fans on these forums? Or that you believe the fans on these forums are representative of all consumers who purchase products developed by EA & BioWare? Because it really seems like your response is suggesting one of these things.

That may certainly be your interpretation of my statement - however - you seem to stereotype everyone that 'hangs out on these forums' as childish groupies or fans instead of consumers who game developers rely on to buy your products. Because you are a writer for Bioware (and I certainly do appreciate your contributions), I suppose I should overlook your indifference to the importance of customer relations. 

I don't think you quite get it. The forum posters and people interested enough to follow a game prior to its launch very closely are a tiny minority.....lless than 1% of the people who ultimately buy the game. It would be ridiculously stupid of them to make decissions simply because of the internet whining briggade and ignore all the other 99% of their customers who ultimately make the game succeed or fail. You might say "but they shouldn't complain because they don't speak up" but that isn't the point. The point is to make the game appeal and please as many people as possible and that involves something called market research......it is the only way to determine what pleases the silent majority and no company would be as successful as BioWare without mastering this skill of knowing what people like.

Beyond that I am more than 100,000,000,000,000% happy with all announced changes and look forward to the game.

It does not surprise me in the slightest that YOU don't seem to get it. And I just love your fabricated market share percentages, laughable - truly. Really, did you take those polls yourself?? Many individuals on THESE forums are also the same people who review games on a variety of other gaming sites and that is where other gamers usually go to read those reviews and decide whether or not a game is worth spending money on. I usually read at least 4 different game site reviews before I decide to buy a game. So, yes the consumer is whom is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a product. I am certainly not trying to damn DA:2 prior to its release in any way. I am simply discussing the fact that Bioware's track record for follow up material to DA:O was quite uninspiring (to say the least) and it seems as a if many people are loosing confidence as a result.

Again if don´t like the change in DA2 then don´t buy the game period. But stop saying that bioware is in conspiracy against all the "hardcore gamers."

Modifié par Solid N7, 21 juillet 2010 - 05:22 .

[Darth_Trethon]

Bratt1204 wrote...

It does not surprise me in the slightest that YOU don't seem to get it. And I just love your fabricated market share percentages, laughable - truly. Really, did you take those polls yourself?? Many individuals on THESE forums are also the same people who review games on a variety of other gaming sites and that is where other gamers usually go to read those reviews and decide whether or not a game is worth spending money on. I usually read at least 4 different game site reviews before I decide to buy a game. So, yes the consumer is whom is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a product. I am certainly not trying to damn DA:2 prior to its release in any way. I am simply discussing the fact that Bioware's track record for follow up material to DA:O was quite uninspiring (to say the least) and it seems as a if many people are loosing confidence as a result.

You are again mistakingly jumping to an assumption...the assumption that by "market research" I'm talking about forum polls which is right out laughable because even these polls show that even the hardcore followers are highly divided on the mattter. Nonetheless that isn't the point......thepoint is that EA does its own market research through moremeans than simple questionaires.....they study the behavior of gamers in their games and gather statistics just like Bungie did with halo. They look at things like how many people play each class, race and what abilities are used how often and a lot more. Statistics gathered from all gamers that play the game online or connect their platform to the internet after playing it......that's a LOT more people that the forum posters.

If for example they noticed that more than 90% of the people only played as human then it would be a waste of time and resources to make the game support races very few would touch and it's a huge pain when you're talking about making 6 versions of each armor for two genders of each race when most would only use of of two versions of the 6 created.

You're just throwing a fit that is ultimately pointless......buy the game or not but one way or another you need to get over it and realize the world doesn't revolve around a handfull of people that make up less than 1% of the people that play the game.

[javierabegazo]

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

[Carmen_Willow]

Despite my early disappointment in losing the ability to play different races in DA: 2, and my initial fears that the combat would turn into something I would be unable to do, I wish to say that I am more than willing to purchase DA: 2. Reason? I loved DA:O and I liked DA:A well enough and I liked the DLCs I purchased. So, I am merely waiting for someone to offer us a good preregistration deal and I am on board. If the game disappoints, then I will be more reluctant to purchase DA: 3, but that's a future discussion.



I'm glad that Bioware is out there to give us a game that seems to have the right balance of story and gory. After hearing the podcast, I was even more reassured about the combat. I just don't want it to be so hard I can't kill the bad guys even on casual....



I also understand that Bioware must create a game that will bring in large numbers of purchasers to maximize profits. Profits provide the funds to create new games (and keep investors happy), so I am on board with that.



All I can say is that I am waiting with baited breath for DA: 2 to hit the streets.

[Darth_Trethon]

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

That wasn't the ONLY reason though. The reason they gave wasn't much of a reason.....they just said they did it because that's the story they wanted to tell which is fine with me......I never play anything but human anyway but the point I was making is that EA DOES collect that type of market research and they DID have a lot of nightmares supporing 3 races......textures not showing up right on multiple items, lack of armor variety.....etc. Do you think they didn't look at those statistics to decide if the extra nightmares of supporting the additional races was worth the effort in terms of existing demand?

[TheMadCat]

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

Of course that doesn't discount the possibility that they created the story to center around a human protagnist because it's far and away the most popular race to play.

[joriandrake]

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

so, this will all be about time travelling again

[Lyssistr]

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

I think it's because of the voiceover as well, eg in BG, you were a specific person with a specific background who followed a certain storyline, yet you could be any race you liked and choose your name. That was in the pre-VO days. 

Now they need to fix the race, else they'd need 2xraces voiceactors, and they need to fix the surname, else everyone will be calling our protagonist something like "the chosen one" which is a little cliche.

When I read in some reviews that they considered it a disadvantage that DAO didn't have VO for main character, I pretty much guessed this would be the course they'd take with DA2 and it makes sense. It's purely a matter of resources, Bioware wants to push the standards high (VO for protagonist) and given the realistically available resources they have to fix race.

Telling a story fits both the VO part and also a new fresher look on DA universe, which is welcome as well.
 

[London]

Personally I'm glad it's a human storyline. Personally I wouldn't care if there were no elves or dwarves at all, and I'm not fond of the Qunari either. There were fantastic RPG stories with no other races but human that I found compelling (Final Fantasy IV, VI). So, in that respect, I'm glad that the elves are on the fringe of society and the dwarves show up in small numbers and otherwise keep to themselves.

If the story resonates for only one race, I think they made the right choice. Not only due to the lore in this world, but because while there are a lot of people who like being elves, etc., there are a lot of people who prefer to RP as human.

Modifié par SebastianDA, 21 juillet 2010 - 04:50 .

[PanosSmirnakos]

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

My logic says that they simply don't have the time to develop something as rich and complex as Origins. A refugee like Hawke can be easily dwarven or even more be elven and fit quite well in the game's lore. DA 2 so far seems more like an Awakening 2. I may be wrong, we 'll see.

[London]

I don't think limiting the origin will make the overall experience less rich or complex; they are going to then have resources to make it more rich and complex in other ways (such as the 10 year time span).

[Solid N7]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

My logic says that they simply don't have the time to develop something as rich and complex as Origins. A refugee like Hawke can be easily dwarven or even more be elven and fit quite well in the game's lore. DA 2 so far seems more like an Awakening 2. I may be wrong, we 'll see.

My logic says that they simply want to make human protagonist and what is wrong with that.

Modifié par Solid N7, 21 juillet 2010 - 05:20 .

[London]

I just think that the story they are telling, a human protagonist seems the most likely.



What motivations to Top-side Dwarves or disempowered elves have to save a world predominately human? I guess it just seems more sensible that a human would take the lead given the current state of Thedas.

[Riona45]

bjdbwea wrote...

The general idea has to be that the targeted mainstream will make up losses in sales to those annoying, never satisfied  RPG fans.

Not all RPG fans will be shunning this game.  Also, how come whenever people refer to "the mainstream," it's always this large *outgroup* that the speaker is certainly not a part of?  It's monolithic, yet no one will ever admit to belonging to it...

[Solid N7]

SebastianDA wrote...

I just think that the story they are telling, a human protagonist seems the most likely.

What motivations to Top-side Dwarves or disempowered elves have to save a world predominately human? I guess it just seems more sensible that a human would take the lead given the current state of Thedas.

^^this:devil:

[PanosSmirnakos]

Solid N7 wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

My logic says that they simply don't have the time to develop something as rich and complex as Origins. A refugee like Hawke can be easily dwarven or even more be elven and fit quite well in the game's lore. DA 2 so far seems more like an Awakening 2. I may be wrong, we 'll see.

My logic says that they simply want to make human protagonist and what is wrong with that.

Nothing is wrong with your POV. It's just another opinion in an open discussion.  

I've played DA:O and DAA as a human noble only, so it's not something I have a problem to roleplay with. My problem is, that it was my choice to play as human, which was one of the main reasons DAO was a great and pure rpg for me.

Modifié par PanosSmirnakos, 21 juillet 2010 - 05:36 .

[Captain Jazz]

Riona45 wrote...

bjdbwea wrote...

The general idea has to be that the targeted mainstream will make up losses in sales to those annoying, never satisfied  RPG fans.

Not all RPG fans will be shunning this game.  Also, how come whenever people refer to "the mainstream," it's always this large *outgroup* that the speaker is certainly not a part of?  It's monolithic, yet no one will ever admit to belonging to it...

No organic belongs to the mainstream. Bioware are thralls to ancient mechanised monsters that live in the depths of space between galaxies. These monsters are the mainstream we speak of. This is why there is such outrage at the developers' pandering to this mainstream - it is a sign of our doom!
At least... I assume that's what the OMGMAINSTREAMISBAAAAD crowd believe.

[Riona45]

SebastianDA wrote...

What motivations to Top-side Dwarves or disempowered elves have to save a world predominately human? I guess it just seems more sensible that a human would take the lead given the current state of Thedas.

I'm perfectly fine with playing a human protagonist in DA2.  But to be fair, the rationale you are using could have been used for DA:O as well, but they chose not to do it.

[Lord_Saulot]

Riona45 wrote...

SebastianDA wrote...

What motivations to Top-side Dwarves or disempowered elves have to save a world predominately human? I guess it just seems more sensible that a human would take the lead given the current state of Thedas.

I'm perfectly fine with playing a human protagonist in DA2.  But to be fair, the rationale you are using could have been used for DA:O as well, but they chose not to do it.

IIRC, the "inclusiveness" of the Grey Wardens was actually something they made a point of mentioning in the opening video.  A person could become a Grey Warden from any background, and in a tale about the Grey Wardens stopping a Blight, the Origins mechanic served well to drive that point home.

[London]

Well, the real reason was, is they probably wanted to devote resources to making one very intense drawn out story, without having to change 10 years of events and scripts for different races and origins. It's a sacrifice I'm happy to live with. Given the racial limitation, I just think they made the right choice, lore-wise and business-wise.