454 réponses à ce sujet

[Captain Jazz]

Riona45 wrote...

SebastianDA wrote...

What motivations to Top-side Dwarves or disempowered elves have to save a world predominately human? I guess it just seems more sensible that a human would take the lead given the current state of Thedas.

I'm perfectly fine with playing a human protagonist in DA2.  But to be fair, the rationale you are using could have been used for DA:O as well, but they chose not to do it.

Grey Wardens combat the blight no matter where they're from - they're not saving the human kingdom of Ferelden so much as stopping the blight that would be the death of everyone. That rationale falls down completely for DA:O due to the whole "maybe we die, maybe we don't, but if nobody fights the blight we all die" angle, but it might work perfectly well for DA2.
I'm not sure it really does, but consider that Hawke may well have more concrete lore behind him than the warden does - if you wished to RP as King Arthur, would it make sense to play him as a woman?
Of course, for the moment I'm assuming that this human only character is only definite for DA2 and that any later games in the series will allow greater racial freedom as other characters are likely to be more fluid - I hope this is the case.

[Wittand25]

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

My logic says that they simply don't have the time to develop something as rich and complex as Origins. A refugee like Hawke can be easily dwarven or even more be elven and fit quite well in the game's lore. DA 2 so far seems more like an Awakening 2. I may be wrong, we 'll see.

No you would need another story tool like the joining to put all the different alternatives on the same social level. Why would the town leaders even listen to an elf ? Is a dwarf capable of blending in or would s/he stick out like a strawberry in a stew ?
If the story is really as centerd around the main protagonist as the marketing makes us believe right now, some requirements for his/her background simply exist,  like they did in BG (orphan) and JE (orphan again)

[javierabegazo]

to even have any choice at all in story, there's got to be a great degree of vagueness about the general story line, to accomodate the different choices and make them all cohesive.



The more established story, the less choice. Quite honestly, I'm looking forward to a better told narrative in DA2 for the fact that atleast his race is set in stone

[Ad Dugg]

javierabegazo wrote...

I'm looking forward to a better told narrative in DA2 for the fact that atleast his race is set in stone

Oh my brother, TESTIFY!

I feel the same.

[javierabegazo]

Here's another post

[joriandrake]

well in this case i hope DA3 will be about an elven hero

[Addai]

Personally I find playing humans dull, but it seems to me the larger story was always more about the humans anyway, with the elves, dwarves and Qunari acting as props- the elves as underdogs, elves and dwarves as color players, etc.  The mythical lore is all about a human prophet and the storyline up to now has been mostly about human kings and their troubles.

Story-wise I would be happy if at least the lore of the fall of the elves is told in greater detail.  Compared to the dwarves and humans, it seemed like the Dalish lore was pretty thin.  I would be pleased to find out that the elves were instrumental somehow in the creation of darkspawn and that their heroic myths about themselves are apocryphal or some sort of twist like that.

Modifié par Addai67, 21 juillet 2010 - 05:57 .

[PanosSmirnakos]

Wittand25 wrote...

PanosSmirnakos wrote...

javierabegazo wrote...

I don't think that any of you realize that the reason they chose for the protagonist of DA2 to be human wasn't because of a popularity contest, but because of the specific story they had already lined up. Any other race would necessitate a retcon in the established lore.

My logic says that they simply don't have the time to develop something as rich and complex as Origins. A refugee like Hawke can be easily dwarven or even more be elven and fit quite well in the game's lore. DA 2 so far seems more like an Awakening 2. I may be wrong, we 'll see.

No you would need another story tool like the joining to put all the different alternatives on the same social level. Why would the town leaders even listen to an elf ? Is a dwarf capable of blending in or would s/he stick out like a strawberry in a stew ?
If the story is really as centerd around the main protagonist as the marketing makes us believe right now, some requirements for his/her background simply exist,  like they did in BG (orphan) and JE (orphan again)

Point taken, but that's when the word fantasy comes in my mind. I mean the writers have plenty of freedom to make everything possible. The above scenarios you wrote, have happened in Origins. A female dwarf commoner can lead the armies of Ferelden, realistic? No. Fantasy? Yes. I still believe that the new story has nothing to do with lore restrictions. It's all about the voiced character decision. But as I said we have few details about DA 2, so maybe I'm wrong about it.

[Riona45]

Captain Jazz wrote...

Grey Wardens combat the blight no matter where they're from - they're not saving the human kingdom of Ferelden so much as stopping the blight that would be the death of everyone. That rationale falls down completely for DA:O due to the whole "maybe we die, maybe we don't, but if nobody fights the blight we all die" angle, but it might work perfectly well for DA2.

That's kinda what I was getting at...at the end of the day, the devs can tailor the story however they want. 

[Riona45]

SebastianDA wrote...

Well, the real reason was, is they probably wanted to devote resources to making one very intense drawn out story, without having to change 10 years of events and scripts for different races and origins.

You're probably right about that.

[Riona45]

Addai67 wrote...
 Compared to the dwarves and humans, it seemed like the Dalish lore was pretty thin.  I would be pleased to find out that the elves were instrumental somehow in the creation of darkspawn and that their heroic myths about themselves are apocryphal or some sort of twist like that.

Well, with regards to their myths, they already are unconfirmed stories, told by (most likely) unreliable narrators, just like the stories of all the other social groups.  In my opinion, that's one of the themes of the setting.

[Captain Jazz]

Riona45 wrote...

Captain Jazz wrote...

Grey Wardens combat the blight no matter where they're from - they're not saving the human kingdom of Ferelden so much as stopping the blight that would be the death of everyone. That rationale falls down completely for DA:O due to the whole "maybe we die, maybe we don't, but if nobody fights the blight we all die" angle, but it might work perfectly well for DA2.

That's kinda what I was getting at...at the end of the day, the devs can tailor the story however they want. 

True... but, lets just run with my King Arthur thought and replace Arthur with Maric. If we were ever to play as Maric, would it make sense to allow us to make him a Dwarf?
If there is some long distance lore thing going on with Hawke, maybe he is the mythical ancestor of the rulers of the Holy Tevinter Imperium in DA3 which happens to be set 500 years after the events of DA2. It is known that he was a great fighter, that he united the lands to the east of the old Tevinter Imperium and led an exhalted march which gained him an empire spreading from Rivain to the Anderfels... there's enough mystery in there to allow Hawke to be a mage, rogue or warrior, even a woman, but if the royal line is human with an attitude of racial "purity"... no way he's gonna be an elf... which makes it easier if you ever interact with the members of that royal line.
Of course I doubt that this is exactly what the devs have in mind, or even close to it, but it's worth considering.

[Addai]

Riona45 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
 Compared to the dwarves and humans, it seemed like the Dalish lore was pretty thin.  I would be pleased to find out that the elves were instrumental somehow in the creation of darkspawn and that their heroic myths about themselves are apocryphal or some sort of twist like that.

Well, with regards to their myths, they already are unconfirmed stories, told by (most likely) unreliable narrators, just like the stories of all the other social groups.  In my opinion, that's one of the themes of the setting.

Right, but there is little to challenge the elves' ideas of their origins, whereas with human lore you do have a more multi-faceted view.

[Bratt1204]

Solid N7 wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
If the sole purpose of our marketing department was to win over the fans on these forums, I'd agree with you.

Really? I thought we were consumers who purchased products developed and marketed by EA & Bioware?  

So which are you suggesting-- that our marketing department's sole purpose should be to win over the fans on these forums? Or that you believe the fans on these forums are representative of all consumers who purchase products developed by EA & BioWare? Because it really seems like your response is suggesting one of these things.

That may certainly be your interpretation of my statement - however - you seem to stereotype everyone that 'hangs out on these forums' as childish groupies or fans instead of consumers who game developers rely on to buy your products. Because you are a writer for Bioware (and I certainly do appreciate your contributions), I suppose I should overlook your indifference to the importance of customer relations. 

I don't think you quite get it. The forum posters and people interested enough to follow a game prior to its launch very closely are a tiny minority.....lless than 1% of the people who ultimately buy the game. It would be ridiculously stupid of them to make decissions simply because of the internet whining briggade and ignore all the other 99% of their customers who ultimately make the game succeed or fail. You might say "but they shouldn't complain because they don't speak up" but that isn't the point. The point is to make the game appeal and please as many people as possible and that involves something called market research......it is the only way to determine what pleases the silent majority and no company would be as successful as BioWare without mastering this skill of knowing what people like.

Beyond that I am more than 100,000,000,000,000% happy with all announced changes and look forward to the game.

It does not surprise me in the slightest that YOU don't seem to get it. And I just love your fabricated market share percentages, laughable - truly. Really, did you take those polls yourself?? Many individuals on THESE forums are also the same people who review games on a variety of other gaming sites and that is where other gamers usually go to read those reviews and decide whether or not a game is worth spending money on. I usually read at least 4 different game site reviews before I decide to buy a game. So, yes the consumer is whom is ultimately responsible for the success or failure of a product. I am certainly not trying to damn DA:2 prior to its release in any way. I am simply discussing the fact that Bioware's track record for follow up material to DA:O was quite uninspiring (to say the least) and it seems as a if many people are loosing confidence as a result.

Again if don´t like the change in DA2 then don´t buy the game period. But stop saying that bioware is in conspiracy against all the "hardcore gamers."

Really?? When did I say that, exactly? Please do not put words in other poster's mouths - You're making yourself look rather foolish 

Modifié par Bratt1204, 21 juillet 2010 - 07:13 .

[Captain Jazz]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Solid N7 wrote...

Again if don´t like the change in DA2 then don´t buy the game period. But stop saying that bioware is in conspiracy against all the "hardcore gamers."

Really?? When did I say that, exactly? Please do not put words in other poster's mouths - You're making yourself look rather foolish 

Opinions can be expressed in ways other than directly saying "this is my opinion." Granted, you seem to be correct that you have not directly stated that you believe bioware to be engaged in a conspiracy against gamers - I have certainly never seen you use those words - however your attitude in this thread and others like it and the words that you do use do give that impression.

[FieryDove]

javierabegazo wrote...

Here's another post

That doesn't mean much lorewise, there were people passing through in masses fleeing...err things...besides there WERE dwarves, elves, and even a Qunari in lothering. I will miss play my Elves and Dwarves no doubt, in fact DAO was the first game where I enjoyed playing dwarves. I loved everything about them. Oh well.

[In Exile]

bjdbwea wrote...
But how did that turn out for ME 2? Not all that great, it seems. The sales numbers are about equal, aren't they. It certainly isn't far-fetched to assume that traditional RPG players are a much larger percentage of DA fans than was the case for ME. I wonder if the mainstream would really be able to make up the losses if those fans would refuse to buy the game in large numbers (which I doubt though).

Or, maybe just or, the majority of RPG fans happen to like the direction in ME2 and DA2. Yes, shocking and earth-shattering though it may be, tight niche communities on the internet might not actually be representative of the tastes of people that exclusively play RPGs today.

Someone like me, who came into RPGs not with D&D, or IWD, or BG, but rather with KoTOR and JE might be purchasing Bioware games and current generation RPGs almost excluisvely while sharing none of the elitist RPG crowd's tastes.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Story-wise I would be happy if at least the lore of the fall of the elves is told in greater detail.  Compared to the dwarves and humans, it seemed like the Dalish lore was pretty thin.  I would be pleased to find out that the elves were instrumental somehow in the creation of darkspawn and that their heroic myths about themselves are apocryphal or some sort of twist like that.

According to David, the elves are effectively making it up as they go along. By the time the Dales formed and they were freed by Andraste, they had already lost their culture. What they created, and what the Dalish subsequently preserve, is at best conjecture if not some dude's fanfiction of elven lore. For them to have their own language, for example, they'd have to effectively build it almost from the ground up like modern hebrew.

[BLunted]

I do not get this notion of "lets be supportive of Bioware" like they are my best bud who just got dumped his girlfriend.



You make a good game, you get my $60. You make a bad game, you get zilch. For me, that's the way it has always been.



End of story.

[BLunted]

javierabegazo wrote...

Here's another post

Actually there was a dwarf in Lothering that I would love to play in DA2...ME.

[Captain Jazz]

BLunted wrote...

Actually there was a dwarf in Lothering that I would love to play in DA2...ME.

Sure, but if your warden is running off and becoming the champion of Kirkwall... who's going to stop the blight? Alistair? I think we all know how that story ends...

[Riona45]

In Exile wrote...

Someone like me, who came into RPGs not with D&D, or IWD, or BG, but rather with KoTOR and JE might be purchasing Bioware games and current generation RPGs almost excluisvely while sharing none of the elitist RPG crowd's tastes.

And, some people like me played BG, IWD, and D&D, and are happy about what has been announced for DA2.

[BLunted]

Captain Jazz wrote...

BLunted wrote...

Actually there was a dwarf in Lothering that I would love to play in DA2...ME.

Sure, but if your warden is running off and becoming the champion of Kirkwall... who's going to stop the blight? Alistair? I think we all know how that story ends...

I guess i set myself up for that, but my main point was that I wished they were making a sequel to origins and not an entirely new game and slapping a #2 on the end of it. Bah, I'm out

[SirGladiator]

The most likely 'real' reason for why the main character is human only is because they made a decision that they couldn't voice 3 different races, they had to limit it to one, and they picked human for obvious reasons. That's just wrong, they could've easily given the same voice to each race, but they didn't consider that people living in a certain area tend to sound like other people in that area, not like whatever you think is common to that race. For example, someone in England will sound different from someone from Mexico, who will sound different from someone from New York, who will sound different from someone from Mississippi, who will sound different from someone from Canada, it doesn't matter what race you are, race is completely irrelevant to that. But they couldn't figure that part out, so they decided it was simply unrealistic to have an elf or dwarf from Lothering sound like a human from Lothering and that it was therefore better not to have an elf or dwarf option for the player. I doubt that they'll come out and say that, since admitting a mistake that dumb would be embarassing, but that is definitely my guess as to the actual reason.



Honestly though, even if they couldn't figure that out, they still should've decided that even if they believed it actually 'was' unrealistic for people from the same town to sound similar to each other, it 'still' would've been better to be a bit unrealistic on that point in exchange for the benefit of not having to lose such an important part of what made the original game so good, the ability to create your own unique player from a variety of races. Certainly there's nothing realistic about humans wearing dwarf armor, or dwarfs wearing armor made for humans, but that makes the game 'more' fun, not less, so you can do it. If something makes the game a lot more fun, I'd tend to think sacrificing a little bit of realisticness wouldn't be a big deal, although again I don't think it even would've been unrealistic anyway.



All that aside, no doubt the fact that the PC is human only won't keep it from being an awesome game, I'm totally looking forward to it, and the fact that the PC is voiced this go round shoud definitely make a great game even greater. I played more often as a human than anything else anyway (when I wasn't human I was mostly a dwarf, I didn't really play that much as an elf, although it was definitely fun too, I just liked the other ones better), so it probably isn't going to make all that much of a difference for me that we have to be a human the second go around anyway. I just believe it would've been even better if they hadn't cut out the elf/dwarf options which were obviously loved by all, including myself.

[Darth_Trethon]

SirGladiator wrote...

The most likely 'real' reason for why the main character is human only is because they made a decision that they couldn't voice 3 different races, they had to limit it to one, and they picked human for obvious reasons. That's just wrong, they could've easily given the same voice to each race, but they didn't consider that people living in a certain area tend to sound like other people in that area, not like whatever you think is common to that race. For example, someone in England will sound different from someone from Mexico, who will sound different from someone from New York, who will sound different from someone from Mississippi, who will sound different from someone from Canada, it doesn't matter what race you are, race is completely irrelevant to that. But they couldn't figure that part out, so they decided it was simply unrealistic to have an elf or dwarf from Lothering sound like a human from Lothering and that it was therefore better not to have an elf or dwarf option for the player. I doubt that they'll come out and say that, since admitting a mistake that dumb would be embarassing, but that is definitely my guess as to the actual reason.
 

Do you seriously think they didn't think about putting the same voices(male and female) on all 3 races? You must literally think they are stupid and don't consider anything before jumping to make a 25 mil USD game(that's about how much it costs to develop a game these days).

With that said they are gathering statisctics from all players that play online or connect to the internet after playing the game and I assure you EA has the numbers of what percentage of gamers played each race. Then you have to take into account all the problems they had supporting multiple races in DAO....broken textures that didn't show propperly, lack of armor variety.....etc. etc. etc. So if the statistics said that most people only played as a human that makes 4 or the origins they created and two of the races unprofitable to support when you consider the time, effort and resources that go into supporting them in a 25 mil USD game. The cost of supporting them would be in the millions and a small enough percentage of gamers using them(probably below 10%) wouldn't be enough to convince EA and BioWare that investing in supporting those races is a good idea.