454 réponses à ce sujet

[Gaxhung]

People should obsess less with B-fr**king-G and Pn-shfr**kin-P, that is the problem!! ... hic!!

[HolyMoogle]

Even Square Enix's CEO acknowledges that everybody thinks Final Fantasy XIII is a steaming pile of fail, but I don't necessarily think it's a trend that RPGs as a whole are taking.



FFXIII's problem is that it was essentially Yoshinori Kitase and Motomu Toriyama scratching the moviegame itch which they've been flirting with since VII. Most RPGs, however, really are not taking that route. Whatever issues you have with, say, Bethesda's RPGs, it certainly isn't that becoming obsessed with linearity and cinematics. Even the two upcoming Final Fantasies, XIV and Versus XIII, are the absolute antithesis of XIII itself, and they've been in development too long for it to simply be a panicked reaction to the trashing XIII got.



As for Bioware... I think it's jumping the gun a bit to say that a voiced protagonist is automatically going to result in an ME2-like experience. ME was never a complex or 'hardcore' RPG to begin with, so I never found the changes made to ME2 very shocking. To extrapolate all that to DA2, however, seems extremely premature and highly unlikely.

[TheMadCat]

As for Bioware... I think it's jumping the gun a bit to say that a
voiced protagonist is automatically going to result in an ME2-like
experience. ME was never a complex or 'hardcore' RPG to begin with, so I
never found the changes made to ME2 very shocking. To extrapolate all
that to DA2, however, seems extremely premature and highly unlikely.

It's not just the voiced protagonist though that are setting off alarms in some peoples minds, it's the entire list from the original announcement, it's several parts from the game informer preview. Phrases such as "cinematic experience" and "dynamic combat mechanics" are reminiscent of phrases you'd hear from a Mass Effect title. Even though we've still got a long way to go I don't really think it's jumping the gun, there is enough there to generate a bit of concern if it's a fear that DA will turn into a Mass Effect style game (Or joy if one wants DA to fall more in line with Mass Effect). At least until BioWare decides to release new information that clarifies those broad statements, but they don't appear to be in any real rush on that.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 19 juillet 2010 - 12:07 .

[Oldenglishcdr]

17thknight wrote...

therewasatime wrote...

That's a wide generalization. Not every console-player is a casual-gamer who wants simplified games. I own a XBox 360 for gaming cause I don't want to deal with hardware-updates on the PC-site anymore. Do I know Baldur's Gate? Sure, one of my favorite games ever.

No they aren't all casual. I own a PS3 and a 360. That isn't the point. The point is that the "casual" market is significantly larger than the hardcore market, and the way to appeal to these people is to, sadly, dumb down a game. They don't want complex stats and deep character interaction, that want a "cinematic" experience.

IE= they think RPGs are meant to be watched, not role-played. People who think  like that are the new targets of RPG developers.

Hell, just look at Final Fantasy 13. Even Square is targeting this market.

According to one developer on this thread the game isn't dumbed down or consolised as some say but rather the opposite. A more complex and deeper character system apparantly.

One way to appeal to all is perhaps have a toggle switch in options, so if one wants a simple play through select the option, or if one wants the full monty(so to speak), select the magic button - everyone is happy hopefully.

[Games4ever]

I say,Support for the People





this is america :-)

[HolyMoogle]

TheMadCat wrote...

As for Bioware... I think it's jumping the gun a bit to say that a
voiced protagonist is automatically going to result in an ME2-like
experience. ME was never a complex or 'hardcore' RPG to begin with, so I
never found the changes made to ME2 very shocking. To extrapolate all
that to DA2, however, seems extremely premature and highly unlikely.

It's not just the voiced protagonist though that are setting off alarms in some peoples minds, it's the entire list from the original announcement, it's several parts from the game informer preview. Phrases such as "cinematic experience" and "dynamic combat mechanics" are reminiscent of phrases you'd hear from a Mass Effect title. Even though we've still got a long way to go I don't really think it's jumping the gun, there is enough there to generate a bit of concern if it's a fear that DA will turn into a Mass Effect style game (Or joy if one wants DA to fall more in line with Mass Effect). At least until BioWare decides to release new information that clarifies those broad statements, but they don't appear to be in any real rush on that.

I dunno... Buzzwords aren't going to get me riled up. Remeber "The New S***" from when the DAO marketing department overhauled their approach and used Marylin Manson songs? Didn't have any negative impact on the game.

A halfway talented marketer could work the words 'cinematic experience' and 'dynamic combat mechanics' into pretty much any modern game, including DAO.

[Hepzi3]

Im going to say this.



With Mass Effect, It was my first Bioware game and I wouldnt have bought it if not for youtube vids. Mass Effect was one of my favorite games of all time.



Mass Effect 2 was a very similar result. Didnt like the story development, but the writing was incredibly good, the combat was arguably better than ME1,overall, amazing game.



I would not have bought Dragon Age if not for the Bioware seal of approval in the right hand corner of the box. Even then, I waited a lot longer than I should have and paid the price. I found myself with an absolutely incredible game that was very close to ME for me, with ME2's character development and writing mixed in. Bioware has never lead me wrong yet.



However, I am a bit concerned(totally unfairly) with DA 2. Some of the changes that are supposed to happen I am with and some I am against.



Either way, I totally expect Bioware to deliver another incredible title.



Congrats, guys and keep up the good work.

[Bruno Hslaw]

I feel disinclined to feel love for the devs since they show little love for the fans. What goes around comes around.



They have for the last few years slipped into ignoring genuine concerns failing to patch their mistakes. Listen to fans etc.



That IMO was one of the best things about BW with games like NWN they patched it to death ..now they can not be bothered.



The quality has suffered since they have been making small DLC instead of proper expansions. Some stuff for ME or Dao is so bad I have not bought any more since before ME3. A company has a right to be respected if they act in a respectable way with good quality material etc. These guys have become more about milking us for cruddy DLC cash than making games IMO.

[Lord_Saulot]

HolyMoogle wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...

As for Bioware... I think it's jumping the gun a bit to say that a
voiced protagonist is automatically going to result in an ME2-like
experience. ME was never a complex or 'hardcore' RPG to begin with, so I
never found the changes made to ME2 very shocking. To extrapolate all
that to DA2, however, seems extremely premature and highly unlikely.

It's not just the voiced protagonist though that are setting off alarms in some peoples minds, it's the entire list from the original announcement, it's several parts from the game informer preview. Phrases such as "cinematic experience" and "dynamic combat mechanics" are reminiscent of phrases you'd hear from a Mass Effect title. Even though we've still got a long way to go I don't really think it's jumping the gun, there is enough there to generate a bit of concern if it's a fear that DA will turn into a Mass Effect style game (Or joy if one wants DA to fall more in line with Mass Effect). At least until BioWare decides to release new information that clarifies those broad statements, but they don't appear to be in any real rush on that.

I dunno... Buzzwords aren't going to get me riled up. Remeber "The New S***" from when the DAO marketing department overhauled their approach and used Marylin Manson songs? Didn't have any negative impact on the game.

A halfway talented marketer could work the words 'cinematic experience' and 'dynamic combat mechanics' into pretty much any modern game, including DAO.

Agreed.  The marketing frankly doesn't sound different from the first one's; all the "dynamic" and "cinematic" stuff just sounds like the same stuff they said about DAO.

[Bratt1204]

Morroian wrote...

Bratt1204 wrote...
I could care less about Devs communicating with their 'fanbase'. I am not a groupie - I am a paying customer - purchasing a product.  I have not read a single positive/constructive post from a developer responding in a modest, non-condescending way to a negative post. 

Then you haven't been looking. If you are critical in a reasoned manner then they respond in kind, if not.......

Bratt1204 wrote...
Because this not communist China, I feel it is important to comment on things that disappoint. What I find insulting is smug game developers  thinking that they are coming up with the 'Next best thing" and trying to cram it down everyone's throat and marketing it as pure gold. It was clearly proven with Awakening - everything that we loved was taken away and the expansion was a extremely lackluster as a result. Yet all along we were being told to buy the game developers to buy it, play it and make our own decisions instead of reading reviews. Sorry, if I read a ton of rubbish reviews about a game, it most likely will be rubbish that I will not waste my money on.

I dislike what they did with Awakening as well but the fact is the comments on DA2 are not reviews, they are in general OTT negative comments based on assumptions made on scant information.

There were the exact same negative assumptions made about Awakening before it was released; all of which came to fruition.

[Arrtis]

Sometimes you hit the nail on the head and sometimes you hit your thumb.

[Oldenglishcdr]

Bruno Hslaw wrote...

The quality has suffered since they have been making small DLC instead of proper expansions. Some stuff for ME or Dao is so bad I have not bought any more since before ME3. A company has a right to be respected if they act in a respectable way with good quality material etc. These guys have become more about milking us for cruddy DLC cash than making games IMO.

There are many companies who makes mistakes and don't get things right all the time, it's called being human. If a comany had the magic formula for making geat games it would be the rare exception rather than the rule. Also you don't have to part with your hard earned if you feel or suspect that the dlc to be sub-standard, that's what we have internet forums for, player reviews, word of mouth etc.

Singling out Bioware for milking you when many other companies do the same thing is hardly fair, if anything blame EA not Bioware.

To give another example (although not game game company - same principal)how many film companies have released total dross over the years or in some cases even ruined their own franchise (cough - Alien, cough - Predator). So it happens not just in the game industry, but elswhere also. It's like the old addage "one has become a victim of ones own success".

Mark my words, even though game companies can be quite secretive at times or none - communicative, they're probably soaking up our comments good and bad. Whether they listen or change is another matter obviously, however there is always another company who may come along and claim their position, perhaps even surpassing them.

Modifié par Oldenglishcdr, 19 juillet 2010 - 01:09 .

[purple_kender]

Putting my name down in support of the devs.  Keeping my faith in you.  <3 Here's to another emotionally engaging game!

[Bratt1204]

WilliamShatner wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Jasuke34 wrote...
I just want to say to the devs to keep their hearts up despite all the flak they are getting about the changes to DA2. While I admit I am a little concerned about the changes, I trust that Bioware will continue to make the same great games they always have. Don't get discourage because of all the flames you are receiving. You have made great games and you will continue to do so. Keep up the amazing work.

To everyone else, please support the devs. They work hard to provide us with awesome entertainment. Be glad that they are devoted to such excellence.

I don't mean to fill the forum with more clutter, but I felt that the devs need some support and encouragement after all the junk I have read people saying about them.

Once again, Keep up the amazing work devs!

Thanks! Though I'll point out that

a) we're used to this.

people fear change.

c) not everyone's going to be on board as a result of (, especially here on these forums-- after all, the people who are most going to dislike any changes are those who liked everything exactly the way it was so much that they're hanging out on the game's forums many months after release, no? They're free to express their discontent, or wait to be convinced. It doesn't hurt our feelings.

But thank you for the vote of confidence.

What about when your company's games break our hearts?  Do you feel that or does it merely smash against your cold, stone heart? 

Wow - Sad but true. No, they could care less. They're in the business of making money not caring about people's emotional attachments. I still cannot understand how they can be so obtuse and not understand that giving customers what they want will prove to be FAR more lucrative then making self indulgent, lackluster rubbish. Why doesn't Bioware just indulge/please its customers and actually make a large expansion to properly continue with the Origins ending and see how well it goes over? It doesn't take a genius to figure out this would sell far better than then the crap they have planned for DA:2 

[aries1001]

As far as the narrative structure (the story-telling) is concerned I think that as least Fahrenheit (an adventure game, remember those?)did something similar, Heavy Rain maybe, too? Overclocked, another adventure game (which is really, really good btw) does a similar thing like Bioware is trying to do. The story in overclocked is a re-telling of events that's happened in the past, but re-told in the present. And then there's a brilliant use of flash-backs. And like Dragon Age 2, the story in Overclocked is not told in chronological order - If Bioware manages to pull off the same level of story involvement (and flashbacks), then, I'll be a happy camper.



After the info about both the story and the party approval info has come to light, I'm a bit more optimistic about Dragon Age 2, so keep up the good work, Bioware devs

[Arrtis]

Narrative reminds me of Prototype minus choices.

Pretty much you start of with all your powers at the beginning*obviously this will not happen in DA2* than after killing a ton of things you start talking to this man and recall how everything started.

Thus the tutorial ended and the game began.

Then after a couple levels you see your self talking to the guy again and answers some questions then goes back to a moment in time where you do this.Then game begins and you play again.

[Bratt1204]

Bruno Hslaw wrote...

I feel disinclined to feel love for the devs since they show little love for the fans. What goes around comes around.

They have for the last few years slipped into ignoring genuine concerns failing to patch their mistakes. Listen to fans etc.

That IMO was one of the best things about BW with games like NWN they patched it to death ..now they can not be bothered.

The quality has suffered since they have been making small DLC instead of proper expansions. Some stuff for ME or Dao is so bad I have not bought any more since before ME3. A company has a right to be respected if they act in a respectable way with good quality material etc. These guys have become more about milking us for cruddy DLC cash than making games IMO.

I concur.

[Kohaku]

Bratt1204 wrote...

Wow - Sad but true. No, they could care less. They're in the business of making money not caring about people's emotional attachments. I still cannot understand how they can be so obtuse and not understand that giving customers what they want will prove to be FAR more lucrative then making self indulgent, lackluster rubbish. Why doesn't Bioware just indulge/please its customers and actually make a large expansion to properly continue with the Origins ending and see how well it goes over? It doesn't take a genius to figure out this would sell far better than then the crap they have planned for DA:2 

You don't know that just like I don't. Personally, even if Bioware made any other expansions related to the Warden, I don't see myself buying it. If I did get it, it would only to be to support Bioware for future game releases.

I haven't finished Awakening but I felt the Warden's story was pretty much done, explored and over with. I really don't know what else people can pick from the Warden's story.  What else is left that a person that only has about 28 years of living can be gained? The only things I want to find out is about this child I made Alistair have. To be honest, the Warden was as bland as you could get.

Modifié par Kerridan Kaiba, 19 juillet 2010 - 02:03 .

[Aradace]

This would be a good opportunity to say again that Im pretty much indifferent to the way the game is going....All I want (and the only thing that will make me want to buy the game instead of renting it.) is a new game plus feature....No New Game Plus, then I'll just rent it from gamefly...

[aries1001]

To put things a bit into perspective, on Danish TV, you can see a British family living through the 1970's-2000 in 30 days or so. In the 1980's, the games came. You know, the games that took 5 minutes to load and maybe the same amount of time to play. And there were no save stones, no save points or anything at all. And you played on your tv screen, I think. There's a point to this - a hardcore point - so I'll continue. Later in the 1980's, the family got a computer and they also got a video machine and a videcam(re)corder. (you know the thing that existed before dvds and blu-ray machines) And the most amazing and annoying thing was that you'd need to use 2-3 hours just to get the things to work properly for maybe 5-10 or ½ hour of footage. And the same were true for the games....



The point being that today, I belive we have better games, we have plug and play (no more copy a: to copy c: stuff), we can save anywhere. And the interface (GUI) is far better today than in some (or all) of the old games. I've tried playing some of the old games, but had to give up, simply because I couldn't stand or manage the GUI in those games.



The point is also that many people, hardcore gamers and others, have a nostalgic side to them, as I see it. This makes them long for 'the good old days' in the 1980's and the 1990's where everything were better. And as I have shown with my example above, it really wasn't. Maybe it felt that way since dads and sons, daugthers and mothers actually worked together to get the technology to work...



I consider myself a hardcore gamer. However, as times goes by, I realize that I don't have time nor energy to spend 2½ hour in a game just doing shopping or going from one place to another in the game. Or time to fight 1 Revenant and his skeletons archers - for 2½ hours - untill I win. I had that time 10 years ago, but not today.



As I see, yes there is a hardcore crows out there. And maybe we (myself included) are only 500,000 (or maybe 750,000) in total. Or maybe even less. 10 years ago, a game that sold like 500,000 in its first year were considered highly successfull. Today, you'll need to sell at least 2 million-2,5 million copies of the game - just to break even. Hence, the necessity for the devs., Bioware's and EA's, to broaden and expand their fanbase. They simply cannot live from the 500,000 hardcore sales anymore.



Over the past 10 years, the gaming business has changed; it has become more of an industry. You may lament and complain about this (I know I do), but so is the sign of the times...



People who want to games that are hardcore should by games developed by (small) indie developers...

[dheer]

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Maybe I'm wrong, and we should have just stapled 2 Archdemons together, let your character meet a mentor named "Tuncan" and knocked off early, but the simple truth is that's not the game I or the team wanted to make.

*sigh* Just because I wanted to continue playing with the Warden doesn't mean I wanted to fight another Archdemon.  We didn't fight another person named Tarevok in BG2 and I didn't expect something similar in a new game. Is this how you really think of people who wanted an epic continuous tale like Baldur's Gate? Good gods.

Look, I know you're proud of the setting you've created. I find It very interesting. However, putting a new story in it and slapping a number two on the box doesn't make it a sequel. Let me put it this way, I don't think of my childhood home and remember how great the color of the walls were or how shaggy the carpet was. I remember it because of the people in it and the things that happened there.

Modifié par dheer, 19 juillet 2010 - 04:16 .

[Captain Jazz]

Go team Bioware! *waves a flag*

dheer wrote...
Look, I
know you're proud of the setting you've created. I find It very
interesting. However, putting a new story in it and slapping a number
two on the box doesn't make it a sequel.

Neverwinter Nights & Neverwinter Nights 2 didn't have the same hero. Granted, you could have created a character of the same name of the same class, race and hair colour, but it's essentially a different character... as long as it's set in the same world it works as a sequel. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to continue the Warden's story, but not every series of games needs the same character in every. Besides, the Warden is nearly superhuman by the end of Origins, I'm guessing at almost godlike by the end of Awakening... dndesque characters don't really have a long shelf life before they start getting a little dull.

Modifié par Captain Jazz, 19 juillet 2010 - 04:24 .

[Addai]

aries1001 wrote...

As I see, yes there is a hardcore crows out there. And maybe we (myself included) are only 500,000 (or maybe 750,000) in total. Or maybe even less. 10 years ago, a game that sold like 500,000 in its first year were considered highly successfull. Today, you'll need to sell at least 2 million-2,5 million copies of the game - just to break even. Hence, the necessity for the devs., Bioware's and EA's, to broaden and expand their fanbase. They simply cannot live from the 500,000 hardcore sales anymore.

And you are assuming that these changes will accomplish that?  How do you figure?  Obviously DAO sold many more copies than these 1/2 mil "hardcore sales," so who are those other people and why did they buy it?  How does it make sense to try to move mainstream where you are competing with dozens of other games, rather than produce a unique product that offers something no one else is selling?

I don't fit into your nostalgia category, BTW.  I'm relatively new to video games and DAO represented something I didn't know existed in video games.  It's kind of sad to think it was a one-time experience and the franchise is going to fall into the boring mass middle.

[Addai]

dheer wrote...

Mike Laidlaw wrote...
Maybe I'm wrong, and we should have just stapled 2 Archdemons together, let your character meet a mentor named "Tuncan" and knocked off early, but the simple truth is that's not the game I or the team wanted to make.

*sigh* Just because I wanted to continue playing with the Warden doesn't mean I wanted to fight another Archdemon.  We didn't fight another person named Tarevok in BG2 and I didn't expect something similar in a new game. Is this how you really think of people who wanted an epic continuous tale like Baldur's Gate? Good gods.

Agreed.  I think Mr. Laidlaw was moving into wiseacre mode with that comment, but the idea that we want the exact same story really, really, is not it.  If that's what the devs think the complaints are about, are they really listening?

New story, minor improvements, same type of gaming experience.  That's what I would like to see.