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Will party approval be done the same way?


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#26
Helena Tylena

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The approval system is fundamentally flawed. You cannot realistically quantify human relationships on a linear numeric scale. It necessarily introduces a metagaming element that works directly against trying to create believable companions.




Nor can you measure stats like strength, cunning, etc in a linear, numeric scale. Or how well you are in persuading or intimidating people. Or how much it hurts when you slice open someone's back with a cleaver. Computers, however, run entirely on numbers, so there's little choice there.

#27
MaxQuartiroli

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Mary Kirby wrote...

There are way fewer gifts, and the gifts are follower-specific. (No more giving dog bones to everyone to boost approval.)


THIS is what I wanted to hear, and what I have really hoped for..
Thank you so much for this info Mary
It was really the main change I wanted from Origins game if someone asked me...

The more I read news about this game the more I am happy about it....

#28
dan107

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Helena Tylena wrote...
Nor can you measure stats like strength, cunning, etc in a linear, numeric scale. Or how well you are in persuading or intimidating people. Or how much it hurts when you slice open someone's back with a cleaver. Computers, however, run entirely on numbers, so there's little choice there.


There's a key difference. Combat (and all the stats related to it) necessarily have to be abstracted. Everyone understands and accepts that. No one expects a Bioware game to be a realstic combat simulator, nor could it be, since in that case you would inevetibly end up dead after a few fights at most.

However, companion interactions are a completely different animal. Bioware games have always had a major focus on realistic, believable NPCs ("digitial actors" and all that). Adding a superflous "approval" system that does absolutely nothing but encourage meta-gaming, since it's essentially a mini-game that you can win or lose, runs completely counter to that idea. Nor does it make any sense for the most part. If you're fighting side by side and risking your life next to someone, that creates a bond unlike any other. Kicking (or worse yet, NOT kicking) a few kittens is not enough to undo that.

Modifié par dan107, 18 juillet 2010 - 09:27 .


#29
JackFace

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I'm very excited about this news. I've been looking forward to the game since the announcement, and it's always very nice to see my faith in you guys pay off.

#30
David Gaider

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dan107 wrote...
There's a key difference. Combat (and all the stats related to it) necessarily have to be abstracted. Everyone understands and accepts that. No one expects a Bioware game to be a realstic combat simulator, nor could it be, since in that case you would inevetibly end up dead after a few fights at most.

However, companion interactions are a completely different animal. Bioware games have always had a major focus on realistic, believable NPCs ("digitial actors" and all that). Adding a superflous "approval" system that does absolutely nothing but encourage meta-gaming, since it's essentially a mini-game that you can win or lose, runs completely counter to that idea. Nor does it make any sense for the most part. If you're fighting side by side and risking your life next to someone, that creates a bond unlike any other. Kicking (or worse yet, NOT kicking) a few kittens is not enough to undo that.


Then how else would you suggest we do it? In my experience you have a limited set of options if you intend for a relationship with a companion to develop inside of a non-linear storyline (and non-linear in this context means only we don't always know what order you're doing things and when they're happening, which is usually the case in our games):

1. You develop a relationship only by talking to them, and the relationship builds in a pre-set sequence of interactions.

2. You have companions react to specific events, as in 'you do X, companion reacts with Y no matter what'.

3. You track a variable whereby the companion reacts to your decisions which determines their overall disposition, without necessarily being aware of all the specific causes of the variable change (you might track a few, but you need to be wary of how many you're tracking lest they start to cross paths).

Typically we do one or two of the above. The difference with the approval system as we've implemented it in Dragon Age is that we show the feedback to you-- but feedback of some kind is required, since in a game you're not going to have access to the subtle nuances of human interaction that exist in real life. At some point you do have to recognize that this is a video game and than a mechanic of some kind is required just as with combat-- all you require is enough buy-in from the player that they are willing to suspend their disbelief. So far, I feel confident that we've been pretty successful in doing just that.

Modifié par David Gaider, 18 juillet 2010 - 09:55 .


#31
joriandrake

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trust and "comradeship" could grow simply by the length of time adventured together.


If one person goes through a lot with another through ten years even if they throw insults at each others heads or don't really like each other they still grow to each other in some aspects.


Certainly, there might be events which could get the companion turn against you or leave you but that becomes more and more unlikely the longer you know him/her

Modifié par joriandrake, 18 juillet 2010 - 10:01 .


#32
Andaius20

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Do it BG 2 style. :) Have timers on companion initiated conversation when wandering out of combat zones. Plus have event related conversations where they ask you why you did something or tell you not to do something. Have them interject in your conversations too. Your answers govern there like or dislike of you. I kinda loved the times when some one in my party in BG2 would stop to talk to me and the conversation would get other party member to comment on what we're saying. Was hilarious sometimes to see Jaheria, Arie and Vicona yelling at each other over what some one said.

#33
Andaius20

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joriandrake wrote...

trust and "comradeship" could grow simply by the length of time adventured together.


If one person goes through a lot with another through ten years even if they throw insults at each others heads or don't really like each other they still grow to each other in some aspects.


this goes along with the "timer" thing in BG2. Since People not in your party conversation timers wouldn't count down you wouldn't get the same "relationship" talks if you jus ttried to pick them up for one mission and for example in DA gift them to +80 and then get everything of note from there relationship plot thingy. 

BG2 style also will help with replayability with different companions for longterm spots in your party. I still think BG2 hasn't been beat to date for party interactivity. ^_^

Modifié par Andaius20, 18 juillet 2010 - 10:15 .


#34
iTomes

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joriandrake wrote...

trust and "comradeship" could grow simply by the length of time adventured together.


If one person goes through a lot with another through ten years even if they throw insults at each others heads or don't really like each other they still grow to each other in some aspects.


Certainly, there might be events which could get the companion turn against you or leave you but that becomes more and more unlikely the longer you know him/her



hmmmm maybe a bit, but not only. if you don't like someone you propably dont like him ten years later, too

#35
kaispan

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Bioware  has spoiled me.
However perfectly they implement companion feedback and interactions and however complete their character arcs are...and however completely I am saturated with dialogue and responses there will at some point be a moment where I turn to my companions and NO ONE WANTS TO TALK TO ME AND...
Posted Image
Q_Q

#36
dan107

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David Gaider wrote...
Then how else would you suggest we do it? In my experience you have a limited set of options if you intend for a relationship with a companion to develop inside of a non-linear storyline (and non-linear in this context means only we don't always know what order you're doing things and when they're happening, which is usually the case in our games):

1. You develop a relationship only by talking to them, and the relationship builds in a pre-set sequence of interactions.

2. You have companions react to specific events, as in 'you do X, companion reacts with Y no matter what'.

3. You track a variable whereby the companion reacts to your decisions which determines their overall disposition, without necessarily being aware of all the specific causes of the variable change (you might track a few, but you need to be wary of how many you're tracking lest they start to cross paths).

Typically we do one or two of the above. The difference with the approval system as we've implemented it in Dragon Age is that we show the feedback to you-- but feedback of some kind is required, since in a game you're not going to have access to the subtle nuances of human interaction that exist in real life. At some point you do have to recognize that this is a video game and than a mechanic of some kind is required just as with combat-- all you require is enough buy-in from the player that they are willing to suspend their disbelief. So far, I feel confident that we've been pretty successful in doing just that.


A combination of 1 and 2. Number 2 I've been harping about for as long as I've been on the old forums, and was really glad to see it implemented in Awakening. It feels a lot more natural and organic to talk to companions about something that's happening in the adventure rather than random and mostly unrelated trivia from their past.Thats where general exposition should come from.

Number 1 is good for romance or friendship arcs. Have a couple of early conversations where you can trigger that path and then have the progression be tied to completing major plot events, so that it's spread out evenly throughout the story and you get the sense of gradual development.

The problem with approval based systems is three-fold.

1. It turns the process into a mini-game, encouraging meta-gaming. The process of interaction with a companion should feel like a relationship, not a game that you can (and are strongly encouraged to) win.

2. Uneven distribution of content. You can pump up a companions approval to 100 within the first 20% of the game, see most of what they have to say and have them go completely silent. The combination of 1 and 2 that I suggested automatically avoids that problem.

3. It's shallow and simply makes no sense. Like I said, if you're fighting and bleeding with someone side by side, it's impossible for a camaraderie not to develop. The way that you handle minor issues will not hamper that.

Quite frankly I don't see any upside to it. Maybe I'm missing something, but what does the approval system add which is not covered by your options 1 and 2 other than the problems that I outlined?

#37
R.U.N

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So companions get combat bonuses if they actually hate you too?

Haha, so let me get this straight, if they hate you they might try to sabotage you in combat, BUT still hang around with you?



This would only make sense if they have a ulterior motive to stick around even if they despise you.


#38
dan107

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iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

trust and "comradeship" could grow simply by the length of time adventured together.


If one person goes through a lot with another through ten years even if they throw insults at each others heads or don't really like each other they still grow to each other in some aspects.


Certainly, there might be events which could get the companion turn against you or leave you but that becomes more and more unlikely the longer you know him/her



hmmmm maybe a bit, but not only. if you don't like someone you propably dont like him ten years later, too


If you don't like someone, you're not by their side risking your life for them ten years later.

#39
Sol Nox

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Ooo!

/Likes this.



What's done is done, but I thought that instead of doing away with all the useless stuff some gifts should just make you lose influence instead. For instance, give Morrigan a bone and instead of accepting it she just wings it back at your head.

"Warden...you must be a special kind of stupid. If it's the thought that counts I really don't want to know what you were thinking."



I think that would've at least helped discourage the nonsensical meta-gaming. Y'know, plus be amusing.

#40
joriandrake

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Awww, but everybody likes good bones with a handful of meat attached to them!

Actually, I think there will be a DLC which will allow you to buy infinite universal gifts. Am I wrong?


Probably not? Gifts trigger specific dialogues now. So you give your companion that "I'm with stupid" T-shirt and they ask you what in the Maker's name you were thinking when you bought it.


Great! :blink:

It is dev confirmed! :happy:

We can buy "I'm with stupid" T-shirts in DA2, 'tis is glorious! :o

#41
joriandrake

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iTomes wrote...

joriandrake wrote...

trust and "comradeship" could grow simply by the length of time adventured together.


If one person goes through a lot with another through ten years even if they throw insults at each others heads or don't really like each other they still grow to each other in some aspects.


Certainly, there might be events which could get the companion turn against you or leave you but that becomes more and more unlikely the longer you know him/her



hmmmm maybe a bit, but not only. if you don't like someone you propably dont like him ten years later, too


no, but probably you get used to him enough to not want to abandon/kill him, and you may just stay because you love to mock the person, just like in some animes, I love those catfights :wub:

#42
Artemis_Entrari

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Zalocx wrote...

I hope so, the gift system needs to be redone so you can't get 100 approval with someone you argue with every single dialogue simply because you throw trinkets at them afterwards


A quick way to fix that gift giving thing is they could just make you lose approval if you give someone the "wrong" gift.  For instance, giving Oghren a pair of Antivan velvet shoes would result in a -15 approval and Oghren threatening to shove the shoes somewhere.

#43
dan107

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Artemis_Entrari wrote...
A quick way to fix that gift giving thing is they could just make you lose approval if you give someone the "wrong" gift.  For instance, giving Oghren a pair of Antivan velvet shoes would result in a -15 approval and Oghren threatening to shove the shoes somewhere.


Which could potentially be the final straw and result in a stout brother in arms leaving you because you gave him shoes?

#44
iTomes

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no idea why, but i like that idea^^

#45
WilliamShatner

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Mary Kirby wrote...

Giltspur wrote...

Party members still react to your decision. But approval won't be handled the same way. They mentioned in the GI article that the approval ratings led to metagaming. Basically people do whatever results in the highest number rather than doing what their character actually wants to do. So getting rid of that number, assuming that's what the GI article is suggesting, seems like a good move. How they'll handle party conflict and rapport...who knows.


There's still approval. But now instead of only getting content and combat bonuses based on positive approval, you can either build a rapport or an antagonistic relationship with your companions. Negative approval means they want to show you up, or see you fall on your sorry behind, but they still stick around.

There are way fewer gifts, and the gifts are follower-specific. (No more giving dog bones to everyone to boost approval.)

And followers can still turn on you or abandon you, regardless of how much they like you, based on your actions. (Like Leliana and Wynne at the Urn.)


Does Leliana react differently to Hawk based on how you interacted with her in Origins

#46
Helena Tylena

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WilliamShatner wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Giltspur wrote...

Party members still react to your decision. But approval won't be handled the same way. They mentioned in the GI article that the approval ratings led to metagaming. Basically people do whatever results in the highest number rather than doing what their character actually wants to do. So getting rid of that number, assuming that's what the GI article is suggesting, seems like a good move. How they'll handle party conflict and rapport...who knows.


There's still approval. But now instead of only getting content and combat bonuses based on positive approval, you can either build a rapport or an antagonistic relationship with your companions. Negative approval means they want to show you up, or see you fall on your sorry behind, but they still stick around.

There are way fewer gifts, and the gifts are follower-specific. (No more giving dog bones to everyone to boost approval.)

And followers can still turn on you or abandon you, regardless of how much they like you, based on your actions. (Like Leliana and Wynne at the Urn.)


Does Leliana react differently to Hawk based on how you interacted with her in Origins


Wait...
Leliana's in the game?

#47
Sol Nox

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No.

#48
WilliamShatner

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David Gaider wrote...

dan107 wrote...
There's a key difference. Combat (and all the stats related to it) necessarily have to be abstracted. Everyone understands and accepts that. No one expects a Bioware game to be a realstic combat simulator, nor could it be, since in that case you would inevetibly end up dead after a few fights at most.

However, companion interactions are a completely different animal. Bioware games have always had a major focus on realistic, believable NPCs ("digitial actors" and all that). Adding a superflous "approval" system that does absolutely nothing but encourage meta-gaming, since it's essentially a mini-game that you can win or lose, runs completely counter to that idea. Nor does it make any sense for the most part. If you're fighting side by side and risking your life next to someone, that creates a bond unlike any other. Kicking (or worse yet, NOT kicking) a few kittens is not enough to undo that.


Then how else would you suggest we do it? In my experience you have a limited set of options if you intend for a relationship with a companion to develop inside of a non-linear storyline (and non-linear in this context means only we don't always know what order you're doing things and when they're happening, which is usually the case in our games):

1. You develop a relationship only by talking to them, and the relationship builds in a pre-set sequence of interactions.

2. You have companions react to specific events, as in 'you do X, companion reacts with Y no matter what'.

3. You track a variable whereby the companion reacts to your decisions which determines their overall disposition, without necessarily being aware of all the specific causes of the variable change (you might track a few, but you need to be wary of how many you're tracking lest they start to cross paths).

Typically we do one or two of the above. The difference with the approval system as we've implemented it in Dragon Age is that we show the feedback to you-- but feedback of some kind is required, since in a game you're not going to have access to the subtle nuances of human interaction that exist in real life. At some point you do have to recognize that this is a video game and than a mechanic of some kind is required just as with combat-- all you require is enough buy-in from the player that they are willing to suspend their disbelief. So far, I feel confident that we've been pretty successful in doing just that.


IIRC there was no feedback in KOTOR, Jade Empire or Mass Effect and IIRC no one had a problem with progressing relationships in those.

#49
Chuvvy

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Helena Tylena wrote...
Wait...
Leliana's in the game?


Makes sense, she did live in lothering.

#50
iTomes

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Slidell505 wrote...

Helena Tylena wrote...
Wait...
Leliana's in the game?


Makes sense, she did live in lothering.



well propably even talk to sten :)