68 réponses à ce sujet

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

*chuckles*

Kronner, I think
it's a little dubious to bill this as a 'feature' when you refer to
pointing a gun barrel at your target as 'waiting unnecessary extra time
for Shepard to put the weapon to perfect horizontal position'. I mean,
you're not far off justifying noclip cheats as 'features' on the basis
of 'it's just bypassing the unnecessary time to walk around an
obstacle'. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Key words : "I think".

You think. Neuzhelin thinks.

Christina Norman knows.

Enough said.

What you perhaps do not realize is that it is not THAT easy to use the trick, and not everyone can use it. This is no "gonna give myself unlimited skill points via Dominate skill", it would be too much of a coincidence that the trick can be performed only after heatsink is in and you clearly hear the click, but you cannot do it before. Why would they leave it in the game, they could just change 60% variable to 80 or 100% and be done with it. Also, Claymore without the trick is objectively worse than Eviscerator, what would be the point of having such shotgun in the game even moreso that you have to actually pick it as a bonus weapon mid-game. I see a mechanic behind it. Your noclip bug is a laughable comparison. But yes, you are right, this is a single player game, no point in arguing over such minor stuff.

JaegerBane wrote...

Ouch. I'm not really sure what there is to say about this. I can understand arguments about which style of weapon a player chooses, spike/burst vs continuous... but to actually out and out claim that mathematics are a lie is a bit... odd. No matter what I think of the number 2, if I add it to 1, I'll always get 3.

Similarly, if a gun does x damage a second, then no matter what I think of it, it will do more damage per second than one that does less.

What I ment is that DPS that are calculated on paper will never fully translate into the game. Unless you are shooting at wall and counting damage for yourself.

Modifié par Kronner, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:15 .

[Neuzhelin]

 If people want ot use their own opinion of what a class if as reason to pick and leave certain items, fine, but it seems a bit silly for this to be considered acceptable, but consider exploiting glitches/'Advanced Features' to be kosher.

But IIRC, you were'nt the one advocating such restrictions on other players

Spot on it is that contradiction that made me post.

Modifié par Neuzhelin, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:24 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
Key words : "I think".

You think. Neuzhelin thinks.

Christina Norman knows.

Enough said.

The same Christina Norman that claimed the reason removable helmets were impossible due to art styles? From the same company that claimed that they didn't have the time to import Dragon Age DLC items into Awakening... and then some average joe came up with a mod on day of release which fixed it?

This is no disrepect intended to either Ms./Mrs. Norman or Bioware. All I'm saying is that there is a very good reason Appeal to Authority is considered a logical fallacy. In the end, claiming 'it's a feature, not a bug' is a stereotypical developer joke.

And, no offence intended, but the term 'I think' before a fact is part of the english language. Trying to capitalise on figures of speech as an argument doesn't exactly paint your point in a great light.

What you perhaps do not realize is that it is not THAT easy to use the trick, and not everyone can use it. This is no "gonna give myself unlimited skill points via Dominate skill", it would be too much of a coincidence that the trick can be performed only after heatsink is in and you clearly hear the click, but you cannot do it before. Why would they leave it in the game, they could just change 60% variable to 80 or 100% and be done with it.

It's not that easy to mod the .ini files, either. You have to at least know what you're doing. Glitches and exploits do generally require some effort to enact, after all. There was a bug in the original Eye of the Beholder game that manifested if you were low enough level and you were hit by one of the level-draining attacks from a ghost - your level ended up reversing around the 8-bit registers in the game and you became a level 255 character in a game with a level cap of 6. The developers also pointed this 'trick' out, too.

Also, Claymore without the trick is objectively worse than Eviscerator, what would be the point of having such shotgun in the game even moreso that you have to actually pick it as a bonus weapon mid-game. I see a mechanic behind it.

You're grasping at straws, here. The evis was a DLC item. DLC stuff is *notorious* for not quite slotting into the original game in terms of balance. You think the Kestrel armour is at all balanced? Or the Arc Projector?

Compare the Claymore to the other base shotties, and the other base weapons. Tier 1 is ME1 style weapon. Tier 2 is alternative (faster firing sniper rifles, more accurate assault rifles etc). Tier 3 is exaggerated Tier 1 (greater power, similar issues). The mechanic is there to be seen. You just need to see it.

Your noclip bug is a laughable comparison.

Compared to claiming aiming a gun barrel at an opponent is unnecessary? Really?

What I ment is that DPS that are calculated on paper will never fully translate into the game. Unless you are shooting at wall and counting damage for yourself.

I understood what you meant. All I was pointing out is that DPS is a measure of the relative damage done, all things being equal. Guns with slower rates of fire but higher damage per shot risk much lower values for less shots required.

Kronner, to be honest, this concept has a been a mainstay for 20 years across 2 seperate mediums. You're not going to convince anyone by simply denying it outright. You might as well claim water isn't wet. There are videos all over youtube showing it blatantly - even people like cruz carried out tests.

Ultimately, this really all boils down to preferences. I don't quite understand why you're so desperate to prove that firing shotguns shells out of the side of the gun is an intended feature - I think the point being made is that roleplay decisions hold no more weight than the willingness to embrace glitches/'features'. As I said, this is a single player game, no one really cares whether the reload trick is intended or not. What motivates most of these posts is based around the idea that claiming firing shells out of elbows (as clearly seen in the animation) is somehow supposed to occur is inherently silly, and a source of some amusement

Modifié par JaegerBane, 21 juillet 2010 - 11:44 .

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

The same Christina Norman that claimed the reason removable helmets were impossible due to art styles? From the same company that claimed that they didn't have the time to import Dragon Age DLC items into Awakening... and then some average joe came up with a mod on day of release which fixed it?

This is no disrepect intended to either Ms./Mrs. Norman or Bioware. All I'm saying is that there is a very good reason Appeal to Authority is considered a logical fallacy. In the end, claiming 'it's a feature, not a bug' is a stereotypical developer joke.

And, no offence intended, but the term 'I think' before a fact is part of the english language. Trying to capitalise on figures of speech as an argument doesn't exactly paint your point in a great light.

Once again, you have absolutely no idea if she was right about the non-removable helmets or not, you simply ignore it, form your own opinion and present it as a fact. As for Dragon Age, it has nothing to do with Mass Effect.

It's not that easy to mod the .ini files, either. You have to at least know what you're doing. Glitches and exploits do generally require some effort to enact, after all. There was a bug in the original Eye of the Beholder game that manifested if you were low enough level and you were hit by one of the level-draining attacks from a ghost - your level ended up reversing around the 8-bit registers in the game and you became a level 255 character in a game with a level cap of 6. The developers also pointed this 'trick' out, too.

You have unlimited time to mod ini files, someone else can send you one. The trick rerquires you to be kinda twitchy. You do it at real time and you can screw up pretty easily.

You're grasping at straws, here. The evis was a DLC item. DLC stuff is *notorious* for not quite slotting into the original game in terms of balance. You think the Kestrel armour is at all balanced? Or the Arc Projector?

Free DLC, basically part of the game released after to ensure better sales of original, not rented, game.

Compared to claiming aiming a gun barrel at an opponent is unnecessary? Really?

You do not aim where barrel is, you aim where the crosshair is.

I understood what you meant. All I was pointing out is that DPS is a measure of the relative damage done, all things being equal. Guns with slower rates of fire but higher damage per shot risk much lower values for less shots required.

Kronner, to be honest, this concept has a been a mainstay for 20 years across 2 seperate mediums. You're not going to convince anyone by simply denying it outright. You might as well claim water isn't wet. There are videos all over youtube showing it blatantly - even people like cruz carried out tests.

crucial's shotgun test is completly useless, he takes only shields into account, no reaload trick with Claymore, that is as useless as it gets.

Ultimately, this really all boils down to preferences. I don't quite understand why you're so desperate to prove that firing shotguns shells out of the side of the gun is an intended feature - I think the point being made is that roleplay decisions hold no more weight than the willingness to embrace glitches/'features'. As I said, this is a single player game, no one really cares whether the reload trick is intended or not. What motivates most of these posts is based around the idea that claiming firing shells out of elbows (as clearly seen in the animation) is somehow supposed to occur is inherently silly, and a source of some amusement

Err, the shell comes out of barrel, not elbows, lol. Can be clearly seen in VirtualDub. Oh, and why do I bother with these posts, because you and few other claim something that is simply not true. You are saying, that anything Christina says is not true based on a fact that you THINK helmets should be removeable from all armors and she said it's fine the way it is now.

Basically comes down to this:
- no one knew about the reload trick
- Christina Norman comes to the forums, to the Vanguard thread and tells everyone about this trick, which works for all weapons and she uses this trick herself, not only with Claymore, but all weapons.
- You need to complete 60% of the animation - the shell is in the barrel, ready to go; then press melee button
- Somewhere on these forums, she also says helmets are not removable because of aesthetic reasons

- Your conclusion is that both things she said are blatant lies.

I say, why not belive her, the second thing about the helmets makes sense, not all armor MUST be modular.
About the reload trick, once again, you think it is a glitch, I see a reward mechanic behind it, Shepard uses the weapon to its full potential. I said why many times.
We just have to agree to disagree.

Modifié par Kronner, 22 juillet 2010 - 06:39 .

[NICKjnp]

I think it is a trick.. maybe not a glitch... but a bit of a cheat.

[Kronner]

NICKjnp wrote...

I think it is a trick.. maybe not a glitch... but a bit of a cheat.

Yes, indeed, a cheat more powerful than godmode, permanent invisibility, and a nuke guns firing off Shepard's butt.
Seriously, the game is so fookin easy it makes no difference in terms of survavibility, without the trick it will just take longer to kill all enemies and you will have to take cover more frequently, and since I do not even use the overpowered Warp explosions, I have no desire to waste my time on substandard enemies, with the trick I can Charge any group of enemies and kill them all as long as I mange to aim and shoot well. That presents somewhat of a challenge in otherwise laughably easy game.
Without the trick I would probably never die in the game - Charge-Shot=Kill-Cover-Charge-etc.
But that is no longer fun for me, I want to risk as much as possible. Scimitar is much safer to use, player is not punished for poor shooting, that presents no challenge to me hence I do not enjoy it that much. Evi is more suitable, but since I have it on all my Sentinels, I want a change for Vanguard. Claymore is the only viable choice for me.
Squad AI is so useless I kill at least 95% enemies myself anyways. Still better than ME1 though, in the first game my squad actually killed some guys too.

Modifié par Kronner, 22 juillet 2010 - 08:13 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
Once again, you have absolutely no idea if she was right about the non-removable helmets or not, you simply ignore it, form your own opinion and present it as a fact.

Given that the armour seemed to display sans helmet without any issue in the Kasumi DLC, I'd respectfully point out that opinion is irrelevant in this matter. I'm talking about stuff that has been demonstrated.

As for Dragon Age, it has nothing to do with Mass Effect.

Total rubbish. I don't often revert to completely blunt language on here kronner, but given that we're talking about the same company here, and the clear amount of interaction between teams (ranging from collaborative DLCs to in-game concepts like weapon powers/enhancement spells functioning in a near identical fashion), claiming they're not related in any way is just a demonstration of ignorance. No more, no less.

You have unlimited time to mod ini files, someone else can send you one. The trick rerquires you to be kinda twitchy. You do it at real time and you can screw up pretty easily.

Oh please, now we're using time to decree whether something is a glitch? Do you not recognise how grasping such an argument is?....

Free DLC, basically part of the game released after to ensure better sales of original, not rented, game.

*chuckles*

... and now, monetary price is a factor in whether something is a glitch? What's next? Does it depend on which shop I got it from whether something is a glitch?

You do not aim where barrel is, you aim where the crosshair is.

And under normal circumstances, the barrel is lined up in the general direction of the crosshair.

I really cannot believe that you're trying to defend this, Kronner. What precisely do you consider the purpose of a gun barrel to be?

crucial's shotgun test is completly useless, he takes only shields into account, no reaload trick with Claymore, that is as useless as it gets.

That's primarily because he's testing the game, not injecting glitches into the mix.

But then, that is the point, is it not?

Err, the shell comes out of barrel, not elbows, lol. <FINGERS IN EARS LALALALA I AM A TRUE BELIEVER LALALA>
We just have to agree to disagree.

I'm inclined to agree with the last line, Kronner. Indeed, we should really leave it at that - this thread isn't being helped by any of it anymore

[JaegerBane]

NICKjnp wrote...

I think it is a trick.. maybe not a glitch... but a bit of a cheat.

You say to-ma-to, I say to-mar-to

[Omicrone]

Just laying the argument of "shell comes out of elbow instead of barrel" to rest. It comes out of the barrel. Melee animation doesn't actually interfere with the shot at all as it is started and completed AFTER the shot is fired.

The sequence of events in reload trick is: Shotgun starts reloading > 60% of reload animation is completed > Player presses melee > Reload animation is interrupted and Shepard Fires a shot > Melee animation initiates and completes.

You can clearly see it in this slow motion video.

[Kronner]

Omicrone wrote...

Just laying the argument of "shell comes out of elbow instead of barrel" to rest. It comes out of the barrel. Melee animation doesn't actually interfere with the shot at all as it is started and completed AFTER the shot is fired.

The sequence of events in reload trick is: Shotgun starts reloading > 60% of reload animation is completed > Player presses melee > Reload animation is interrupted and Shepard Fires a shot > Melee animation initiates and completes.

You can clearly see it in this slow motion video.

Good video.
Of course it comes from the barrel, some are just not able to see it.

[Omicrone]

Well it kinda requires slow-motion to see it I can see why Jaeger would say it comes out of the elbow cause with the tracer effect and the speed of the melee attack, your eblow is in line with the shot, sometimes. But you can see that's not the case in the video. The animation progresses quickly and hence the misunderstanding.

Modifié par Omicrone, 22 juillet 2010 - 06:27 .

[amcnow]

JaegerBane wrote...

amcnow wrote...
It's obvious you don't consider role play to be a valid reason for making choices in an RPG.  That is your perogative.  My advice was intended for the OP.  Whether or not the OP considers my advice is up to the OP.  So I'm not going to waste anymore of my time on this.

I'm at a loss as to what point this post has. If you'd prefer to go off and sulk rather than have a civil discussion, what's the point in announcing it?

Like I said, there's nothing more to discuss.  We have our differences in opinion on this matter, and we both stated why.  That was the point of my previous post.  You're the one that's failing to comprehend what I'm saying. 

[Kronner]

Omicrone wrote...

Well it kinda requires slow-motion to see it I can see why Jaeger would say it comes out of the elbow cause with the tracer effect and the speed of the melee attack, your eblow is in line with the shot, sometimes. But you can see that's not the case in the video. The animation progresses quickly and hence the misunderstanding.

Well, yes, he did not check the facts and assumed it was like that.
Apparently, he also thinks it is possible to fire only when shotgun is in a perfect horizontal position. I have nothing else to add, other than Claymore fookin rocks!

Modifié par Kronner, 22 juillet 2010 - 07:20 .

[Freakaz0idx]

Claymore made me so angry on 360 it made me take a couple weeks off ME2, then I tried it again and wanted to disown my vanguard. With the reload trick you have hold on R trigger then try to aim with R stick, but when you're in the midst of aiming you have quickly move your hand of R stick to melee with B which can screw up the aim anyway because everything happens so fast. Along with trying to analyze your surroundings for another charge so you don't die, things just become a nightmare. So I went with AR training, Scmitar and the Evis are good enough.



I'm gonna go back to my collector ship save and re-choose Claymore. I WILL tame this beast. >=[

[JaegerBane]

Omicrone wrote...

Just laying the argument of "shell comes out of elbow instead of barrel" to rest. It comes out of the barrel. Melee animation doesn't actually interfere with the shot at all as it is started and completed AFTER the shot is fired.

The sequence of events in reload trick is: Shotgun starts reloading > 60% of reload animation is completed > Player presses melee > Reload animation is interrupted and Shepard Fires a shot > Melee animation initiates and completes.

You can clearly see it in this slow motion video.

This is getting a bit silly, but at 0:20-0:21 there's clearly an example where Shep's gun is aimed up towards the ceiling and yet a shot flies out straight forward. Shep is reloading and yet the merc gets hit straight in the gut. It happens again at 0:35-0:37.

So yes, I fully concede that I was wrong in that the shells come out of Shep's elbow. They do, on the contrary, come from the heel of Shep's right hand. <_<

I'm sure that to some of these reload fanatics this will make some sort of difference to the idea that it can't be a glitch - presumably certain body parts are somehow more acceptable to expel shotgun blasts than others. But ultimately, this post shows that some people have descended so far into this delusion that they're seeing what they want to see. And under such circumstances, it's no longer worth arguing.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 22 juillet 2010 - 09:04 .

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...

Apparently, he also thinks it is possible to fire only when shotgun is in a perfect horizontal position.

I said nothing of the sort, Kronner, and you damn well know it. Trying to twist words may be the only real option you have to get this silly point across, but it doesn't change the fact that shooting forward while aiming skyward doesn't make sense.

[Kronner]

JaegerBane wrote...

Kronner wrote...

Apparently, he also thinks it is possible to fire only when shotgun is in a perfect horizontal position.

I said nothing of the sort, Kronner, and you damn well know it. Trying to twist words may be the only real option you have to get this silly point across, but it doesn't change the fact that shooting forward while aiming skyward doesn't make sense.

Well, your analysis was pretty clear to me. You see things that do not happen (heel of Shep's right hand what is that lol). And to your aiming "point" - even when the weapon is down as much as possible, you do not shoot where the barrel points, but where the crosshair points. So that is invalid as well. To me, the reload trick makes perfect sense, to you, it is a glitch. IMHO your points are laughable, you think the same of mine. :happy:
I swear to god I am not gonna reply in this thread again, it would only cause another pointless arguing anyways. Nobody really cares anyways, it is part of the game, some use it some do not.

[JaegerBane]

Kronner wrote...
I swear to god I am not gonna reply in this thread again, it would only cause another pointless arguing anyways. Nobody really cares anyways, it is part of the game, some use it some do not.

Indeed. As I said Kronner, there is little point in arguing this further - not least because it's got sod-all to do with the thread topic

[The Spamming Troll]

i agree with anything jaegerbane has to say. thats just my opinion.