94 réponses à ce sujet

[KappaOmicron]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

inventory was too hard for the children to understand

putting inventory in DAO2 = frustrated children = Bioware loses their largest demographic customer group = no profit

Explain why Mass Effect 2 brought out Bioware profit then? They implemented it.

[C9316]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

inventory was too hard for the children to understand

putting inventory in DAO2 = frustrated children = Bioware loses their largest demographic customer group = no profit

That's the fault of the children for being stupid.

[errant_knight]

KappaOmicron wrote...

Did you not get annoyed with there being so many armour sets which took too long to aqquire the best sets and that there were none really unique to the person?

I prefered Mass Effect 2's armour sets because everyone looked different, in Mass Effect there were so many stupid looking armour it annoyed me, at one point I had Wrex wearing a bright purple armour outfit which was not cool at all.

Again, that was part of the game. You purposely had limited funds and storage space so you had to make decisions about what to acquire. It made the game more challenging, along with the fact that those armors weren't handed to you on a platter.

[Mecha Tengu]

KappaOmicron wrote...

Mecha Tengu wrote...

inventory was too hard for the children to understand

putting inventory in DAO2 = frustrated children = Bioware loses their largest demographic customer group = no profit

Explain why Mass Effect 2 brought out Bioware profit then? They implemented it.

PFFFTTTT?!?!!?!?!?!??!!?!

Mass effect 2 does not even have an inventory. Have you ever played ME1? then you would understand the huge transition, and the dumbing down of ME1 as an RPG to ME2 as much more shooter and action oriented.

[Daerog]

KappaOmicron wrote...

Did you not get annoyed with there being so many armour sets which took too long to aqquire the best sets and that there were none really unique to the person?

Not at all. At least there was equipment, ME2 has none. Only equipment is on Shepard and guns for everyone. The other stuff was all skins that offered no customization or stats of anykind, they were just for looks and offered no strategic or tactical advantage. I liked having the choice of having Morrigan in full massive armor if she was an AW or my warrior wearing just medium or heavy armor instead of just massive. ME2 has no customization (except shepard, but it's not much at all).
I like ME1, ME2, and DA:O, but for different reasons. ME is a shooter rpg, DA:O is a more traditional western rpg with group tactics.

[KappaOmicron]

I understand all of your points especially DaerogTheDhampir's but we are all different people who are have differen opinions than others.

It's not a must of DA: II being like Mass Effect 2, I would still DA:II even if it wasn't.

I wish people would give Hawke a chance though, because the emotion it is going to add to the story is going to be worth it in my opinion, the story is what makes a game not just it's gameplay.

Modifié par KappaOmicron, 19 juillet 2010 - 02:04 .

[2papercuts]

KappaOmicron wrote...

I understand all of your points especially DaerogTheDhampir's but we are all different people who are have differen opinions than others.

It's not a must of DA: II being like Mass Effect 2, I would still DA:II even if it wasn't.

I wish people would give Hawke a chance though, because the emotion it is going to add to the story is going to be worth it in my opinion, the story is what makes a game not just it's gameplay.

the problem is that Hawke is going to be Bioware's  character and not necesarily yours

Modifié par 2papercuts, 19 juillet 2010 - 02:11 .

[otherarrow]

KappaOmicron wrote...

Did you not get annoyed with there being so many armour sets which took too long to aqquire the best sets and that there were none really unique to the person?

I prefered Mass Effect 2's armour sets because everyone looked different, in Mass Effect there were so many stupid looking armour it annoyed me, at one point I had Wrex wearing a bright purple armour outfit which was not cool at all.

Lol are you sure you want to play an RPG? Basically you're complaining about all the RPG aspects of the game.
Changing gear, playing a different character than the "default" one, having a voice for your character..

Honestly I hated the voices in ME and it was really what made it less enjoyable for me. Sure, it brings more life to your character, but it restricts you very much. In ME you could only play as mature/aggresive female (Though I love her voice actress she should be another character - not mine) or as constipated male. I guess that is fine for the setup of ME, but in a fantasy genre like DA, why couldn't you be a sly little rouge or an old wizard?

As for the races, maybe you didn't play anything but humans, but some of us likes to try different things. I personally played through all the different races and I enjoy not being stuck with what the game thinks is the right choice for your character (generic white male gets boring).

So yeah I hope they have a damn good reason for having humans only (other than "meh, just easier that way" or "humanity saves the day!" as with ME).
The voice I know I can't do anything about now, but I'd just like to say that not everyone thinks it's an amazing feat.

Sorry for the ramble.

[Addai]

OP it's nice that you enjoyed Mass Effect and are happy.  Some of us hated it.  So to have Mass Effect held up as some sort of be-all end-all for the direction of our favorite game is not good news.  Even for those who liked both, some would rather the two franchises remain unique.   The very things that are now being called "outdated" and "stilted" were once used to promote Origins and now they're being thrown under the bus along with the players who prefer that playstyle.  Oh, and being forced to play a human sucks, too, but that's just little old me.

So, you're stoked- skippy.  You have a right to pronounce your cheer as much as those of us who are unhappy have a right to our dissent.  Just, you know, lay off the chirpy pep talk routine.

Modifié par Addai67, 19 juillet 2010 - 02:21 .

[Daerog]

Addai67 wrote...

  Even for those who liked both, some would rather the two franchises remain unique.  

This, and in all honesty, if they both seemed the exact same kind of game, why buy both? Remaining unique makes more sales which makes more money.
Overall opinion: Don't mind voice, hope limiting race involves the plot, and hope combat becomes deeper and not simpler in DA2.

[Mecha Tengu]

I wont mind real time twitch action combat



just as long as the plot is nice and we can customize

[Daerog]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

I wont mind real time twitch action combat

just as long as the plot is nice and we can customize

In response to the bolded, let that be the prequel or sequel to Jade Empire.

One can dream, right?

[yogolol]

My troll radar is going off.

[2papercuts]

well i guess the OP is the type of person Biowares trying to target with the changes to DA

[RavenStorm]

KappaOmicron wrote...

Yes all of my characters were humans because I couldn't stand being a Dwarf with an American accent and not Scottish and being an Elf because they had baby faces and looked like children.

I'm sorry but that is my opinon on the other races in Dragon Age and it is why I am not affected by them restricting it to humans in DA: II but you are all complaining in vein, they are not going to add other races strictly because they have already said they have the voices covered and that Hawke is a human. End of story. It is them as game developers to create a game how they want it with fan input obviously but of course they're views and opinions on certain subjects is always going to be stronger.

  Why would a dwarf have a Scottish accent? Wouldn't both Dwarves and Elves fall more into a Germanic/Nordic culture? Unless of course you're refering to the Orkneys and Shetland?(ie:Viking invasions)

[Therumancer]

RavenStorm wrote...

KappaOmicron wrote...

Yes all of my characters were humans because I couldn't stand being a Dwarf with an American accent and not Scottish and being an Elf because they had baby faces and looked like children.

I'm sorry but that is my opinon on the other races in Dragon Age and it is why I am not affected by them restricting it to humans in DA: II but you are all complaining in vein, they are not going to add other races strictly because they have already said they have the voices covered and that Hawke is a human. End of story. It is them as game developers to create a game how they want it with fan input obviously but of course they're views and opinions on certain subjects is always going to be stronger.

  Why would a dwarf have a Scottish accent? Wouldn't both Dwarves and Elves fall more into a Germanic/Nordic culture? Unless of course you're refering to the Orkneys and Shetland?(ie:Viking invasions)

 I think that the accents are used simply because they work. That and german accents are a bit tougher to write, and are generally seen as being fairly malevolent due to two world wars and the resulting propaganda/movies/etc... 

 While difficult to prove, I think the scottish accents started with D&D and the divide that was being made between "Mountain Dwarves" and "Hill Dwarves" and someone decided that since they lived in Hills/Highlands that making the Hill Dwarves sound like scots sort of fit, given that they tended to fit the general stereotype due to their beards and such. Scotland also being with the UK, and one of the 'allies', it fitting in with sword and sorcery settings that are generally using the English countryside and various medieval British trappings as a backdrop. As far as fantasy goes if the people of "Fantay Kingdom X" are pretty much English, then it's not hard to envision the dwarves living in the hills nearby being scots. Of course Mountain Dwarves wound up with those accents also, however as I remember for a while Mountain Dwarves were supposed to be by and large cloistered, and discouraged as PCs for a long time even if there were no stt differances. This means that even if dealing with dwaves who lived underground or burrowed into rocks or even under a mountain literally, they were still generally Hill Dwaves.

 Sort of like how if I remember in 1st Edition AD&D all elven Player Characters were supposed to be High Elves to begin with, though like everything things expanded to include other racial varients like Wood Elves, Valley Elves, and yes eventually the overdone Dark Elves. The original premise being similar to the dwarves where the High Elves were relatively open and dealt regularly with other races, where even if not especially powerful wood elves, valley elves, etc... maintained a more isolationist policy and were rarely seen as a conceptual thing, a wood elf at the time by definiion not wandering around adventuring because if he's not an isolationist he really wouldn't be a "wood elf" anymore (as much as the arguement holds up... it doesn't which is why things changed).

 While (A)D&D drew from other things, I think people underestimate the massive influance it had on fantasy conventions in general, and especially sword and sorcery games. What seemed cool to a bunch of nerds playing D&D when the community was small remained and grew into stereotypes that everyone used. The actual answer to scottish dwarves is probably that someone showed up at Gen Con, did the accent while role-playing, and sold the idea fairly well, inspired imitators, and then before too long everyone was doing it. There probably isn't much more logic beyond what I've rambled on about, the actual trend innovator was probably some dude named Irving Snotchpockets or whatever who will doubtlessly be forgotten to history.

 Ironically though I *CAN* say where the commonly used derrogatory gaming term "Munchkin" came from as I saw it invented, spread into use, and grow to replace terms like "Monty Haul" in common commentary. It came from a guy called Mario Thibault on Fidonet AD&D.  

[Therumancer]

2papercuts wrote...

well i guess the OP is the type of person Biowares trying to target with the changes to DA

 Well, no change is going to be universally reviled, and there are plenty of people who love twitch based games, and would like to see the industry produce nothing else. In absolute terms they outnumber RPG gamers as well.

 I've written a lot on this subject recently, the big issue here seems to be that the core of the fan base for "Dragon Age" are RPG players. "Dragon Age" was a surprising success because tons of RPG gamers were dying to see a game heavily based around stats and which handled the fantasy stereotypes fairly well. What was once a common genere for video gaming having been overshadowed in an era where everything is  progressively  twitch and action based. Developers being somewhat distanced from gaming by their very position, probably didn't really grasp that this stuff wasn't out there like it used to be, simply assuming it was around like it always had been before. 

 I think a lot of the issues come down to the corperate minds at Bioware looking at the statistics and basically saying that by the numbers simplicity and action are good and will result in the biggest possible profit. This missing the point that "Dragon Age" succeeded like it did by bringing in a generally untapped niche market which it had more or less to itself at this quality level, compared to the diluted pool of "twitch games" which are being yanked every which way. 

 What is being said about "Dragon Age 2" is pretty much anathema to RPG gamers who liked "Origins" for pretty much being the opposite of almost everything that has been stated about the sequel, hence the reaction. This does not mean that there aren't going to be people who are going to support, and even embrace such changes, despite them coming at the expense of the audience that made the game successful to begin with. 

 In the end what we're looking at here is a test of Bioware's loyalty to it's fans. Is Bioware willing to continue on the same path of "Origins" and make a decent profit, or with the basic success are they willing to sell it out entirely in order to potentially draw in an even bigger crowd of gamers, hoping that twitch gamers put down their copies of "Modern Warfare 2" for a while and twitch along with a sword instead for a while with "Dragon Age 2".

 Of course this is simply going by the example set by Bioware itself with "Mass Effect 2" and other RPG series over time, where "simplification" typically means "removal or minimalization of stats for more twitch resolution". I look at things like the Marvel "action RPGs" which got simpler and more arcade like with every installment since the original "X-men Legends" up until he most recent "Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2" which was pretty much a straight brawler where you didn't even have to make any serious desicians on how to build each character or what to specialize them in.

 The bottom line is that the established "Dragon Age" fan base has read what Bioware has said, the reaction is by and large negative. The big question is whether Bioware is willing to change things, or if they are pretty much going to say "Meh, who cares what the fans think, don't they know WE are the ones who dictate what they like. the money bag carrying sheep will buy whatever we decide to produce and be happy with it..." and continue down this path. 

 I'm not happy with the way things look, but at the same time I've been here before. In general I don't think I've ever seen a company alter plans this radically based on feedback (requested or otherwise). Sometimes the fans are wrong and wind up liking something anyway, but more often than not when things are this loud you wind up seeing franchises go down in flames.... while some people involved in an early stage of seeing the problem watch in horror like a slow motion train wreck is taking place in front of them, some trying to help but being unable to halt the intertia.

 Ah well, I've written a lot of posts on the subject today, all very long. I like Bioware and wouldn't bother to post if I didn't care. I come accross a bit strong, and don't want people to get too insulted, or think I'm a troll or anything while I'm trying to be constructive even if what I'm saying is negative in tone.

[angj57]

errant_knight wrote...

Again, that was part of the game. You purposely had limited funds and storage space so you had to make decisions about what to acquire. It made the game more challenging, along with the fact that those armors weren't handed to you on a platter.

Yeah. It made way more sense for an officer in a powerful military to scavenge armor off the corpses of his dead enemies. And the "limited" resources didn't exactly make the game more challenging when it was hard to avoid getting the "rich" achievement by the midpoint of the game.

[2papercuts]

angj57 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Again, that was part of the game. You purposely had limited funds and storage space so you had to make decisions about what to acquire. It made the game more challenging, along with the fact that those armors weren't handed to you on a platter.

Yeah. It made way more sense for an officer in a powerful military to scavenge armor off the corpses of his dead enemies. And the "limited" resources didn't exactly make the game more challenging when it was hard to avoid getting the "rich" achievement by the midpoint of the game.

wait are you saying it should be harder to scavenge or just turn into ME2?

Modifié par 2papercuts, 19 juillet 2010 - 03:39 .

[Drasanil]

angj57 wrote...Yeah. It made way more sense for an officer

Officer? There's only two of you left and you just happen to be the lowest ranked of the bunch, it's kind of like the cook's assistant getting promoted to major because the rest of the army is dead.

in a powerful military to scavenge armor off the corpses of his dead enemies.

Someone didn't pay much attention to the story did they?

The Grey Wardens were, first of all, on rather  shaky ground politically and Cailan's death basicly pushed them over the edge. Secondly there were little more than a handfull of Grey Wardens in the entirety of Ferelden and only two of them survived Ostagar... so uhm care to define what constitutes "powerful military" in your book, because I'm just not seeing it

[HTTP 404]

I am just as excited for the same things as OP is. No offense to those that dislike the path DA is taking in 2, I get it.

[Davasar]

Therumancer wrote...

2papercuts wrote...

well i guess the OP is the type of person Biowares trying to target with the changes to DA

 Well, no change is going to be universally reviled, and there are plenty of people who love twitch based games, and would like to see the industry produce nothing else. In absolute terms they outnumber RPG gamers as well.

 I've written a lot on this subject recently, the big issue here seems to be that the core of the fan base for "Dragon Age" are RPG players. "Dragon Age" was a surprising success because tons of RPG gamers were dying to see a game heavily based around stats and which handled the fantasy stereotypes fairly well. What was once a common genere for video gaming having been overshadowed in an era where everything is  progressively  twitch and action based. Developers being somewhat distanced from gaming by their very position, probably didn't really grasp that this stuff wasn't out there like it used to be, simply assuming it was around like it always had been before. 

 I think a lot of the issues come down to the corperate minds at Bioware looking at the statistics and basically saying that by the numbers simplicity and action are good and will result in the biggest possible profit. This missing the point that "Dragon Age" succeeded like it did by bringing in a generally untapped niche market which it had more or less to itself at this quality level, compared to the diluted pool of "twitch games" which are being yanked every which way. 

 What is being said about "Dragon Age 2" is pretty much anathema to RPG gamers who liked "Origins" for pretty much being the opposite of almost everything that has been stated about the sequel, hence the reaction. This does not mean that there aren't going to be people who are going to support, and even embrace such changes, despite them coming at the expense of the audience that made the game successful to begin with. 

 In the end what we're looking at here is a test of Bioware's loyalty to it's fans. Is Bioware willing to continue on the same path of "Origins" and make a decent profit, or with the basic success are they willing to sell it out entirely in order to potentially draw in an even bigger crowd of gamers, hoping that twitch gamers put down their copies of "Modern Warfare 2" for a while and twitch along with a sword instead for a while with "Dragon Age 2".

 Of course this is simply going by the example set by Bioware itself with "Mass Effect 2" and other RPG series over time, where "simplification" typically means "removal or minimalization of stats for more twitch resolution". I look at things like the Marvel "action RPGs" which got simpler and more arcade like with every installment since the original "X-men Legends" up until he most recent "Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2" which was pretty much a straight brawler where you didn't even have to make any serious desicians on how to build each character or what to specialize them in.

 The bottom line is that the established "Dragon Age" fan base has read what Bioware has said, the reaction is by and large negative. The big question is whether Bioware is willing to change things, or if they are pretty much going to say "Meh, who cares what the fans think, don't they know WE are the ones who dictate what they like. the money bag carrying sheep will buy whatever we decide to produce and be happy with it..." and continue down this path. 

 I'm not happy with the way things look, but at the same time I've been here before. In general I don't think I've ever seen a company alter plans this radically based on feedback (requested or otherwise). Sometimes the fans are wrong and wind up liking something anyway, but more often than not when things are this loud you wind up seeing franchises go down in flames.... while some people involved in an early stage of seeing the problem watch in horror like a slow motion train wreck is taking place in front of them, some trying to help but being unable to halt the intertia.

 Ah well, I've written a lot of posts on the subject today, all very long. I like Bioware and wouldn't bother to post if I didn't care. I come accross a bit strong, and don't want people to get too insulted, or think I'm a troll or anything while I'm trying to be constructive even if what I'm saying is negative in tone.

Concise, direct and to the point.

I have made many of these points as well in different posts, and was flamed/insulted for it.

All of your points are true.  I only hope people will actually read your post and FINALLY fathom why so many people are not happy with the new direction (not holding my breath for this one).

Most either dont care or say something to the affect of "but I liked Mass Effect games, and this game will be good too!  So why wont you like it with me?!"

Because people have differing tastes, and to you people who like Mass Effect games, you have your games.  They are called Mass Effect.

For the people who like DAO, our game is being changed...and effectively destroyed with the changes of the things we like.

But, I too am past the point of caring.  Bioware has pretty much stated "It's our game, you fans of DOA and go take a flying leap."

So, I just wont buy it.  It's that simple. 

If a game franchise purposefully excludes you from the target audience, dont buy it.  Because you wont like it.

Modifié par Davasar, 19 juillet 2010 - 04:10 .

[errant_knight]

angj57 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Again, that was part of the game. You purposely had limited funds and storage space so you had to make decisions about what to acquire. It made the game more challenging, along with the fact that those armors weren't handed to you on a platter.

Yeah. It made way more sense for an officer in a powerful military to scavenge armor off the corpses of his dead enemies. And the "limited" resources didn't exactly make the game more challenging when it was hard to avoid getting the "rich" achievement by the midpoint of the game.

 You are the last two very junior wardens who got away from the battle with nothing but what was in your pockets. You can't contact the wardens, you can't go to the Denerim headquarters. You have to earn or scavange what you get. There's nothing that doesn't make sense about that. I suppose Alistair could ask Eamon for money, but he might feel a little awkward about that, given that he hasn't seen him since he was ten, and under poor circumstances. You aren't a rich and powerful officer of anything. The wardens of Ferelden ceased to exist at Ostagar. I think you're kind of missing the point of roleplaying. Personally, I've rarely gotten enough money for that achievement. Not all my characters will do the things it takes, or spend their coin rather than accumulating it.

Modifié par errant_knight, 19 juillet 2010 - 04:11 .

[officer grayson]

Drasanil wrote...

angj57 wrote...Yeah. It made way more sense for an officer

Officer? There's only two of you left and you just happen to be the lowest ranked of the bunch, it's kind of like the cook's assistant getting promoted to major because the rest of the army is dead.

in a powerful military to scavenge armor off the corpses of his dead enemies.

Someone didn't pay much attention to the story did they?

The Grey Wardens were, first of all, on rather  shaky ground politically and Cailan's death basicly pushed them over the edge. Secondly there were little more than a handfull of Grey Wardens in the entirety of Ferelden and only two of them survived Ostagar... so uhm care to define what constitutes "powerful military" in your book, because I'm just not seeing it

I...believe they were talking about Mass Effect, not Dragon Age. >>;

[Heimdall]

I feel like many here are missing the point that gameplay, at least for the PC, is remaining the same. I don't think DA2 will become a hack and slash



Some people have their own issues with VO and the very idea of the dialogue wheel that I won't begrudge them. (though I think the dialogue wheel will offer much more exact and varied choices that the ME wheels)



I can see why some hate having to play a human character but it doesn't really bother me one bit (This is coming from a guy who played elf and dwarf characters almost exclusivly in DA:O) As I believe the decision was due to the story rather than VO (Besides, I don't think humans would accept a non human as their king/queen any more than the dwarves would accept a human or elf on orzammar's throne or as the dalish would not accept a human or dwarf leader, In DA:A the warden can because they are a grey warden (Who seem immune to racial stereotypes overall) and the established hero of Ferelden.



Anyway, I truthfully don't think Dragon Age 2 is anywhere near becoming ME2