369 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Not in criminal trials you dont.

[Nightwriter]

Unfortunately, there are many trials where juries make verdicts based on what they think is "likely" true.

The system is imperfect.

However, Purgatory is hardly a criminal trial environment. I'm not saying that everyone there is guilty or that it's impossible for an innocent man to wind up there. I'm just saying that that man is probably not one such innocent.

[AntiChri5]

Probably is not good enough for me.

[Nightwriter]

Your faith in mankind is stronger than mine. You are an optimist and I salute you for it.

But to walk into a prison like that and assume the men in it are innocent requires a level of hopefulness I find myself incapable of.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 21 juillet 2010 - 07:45 .

[AntiChri5]

It isnt out of any hope and respect for my fellow man (hold hands, dance in a circle, flowers for everyone) but my mistrust, suspicion and hatred for the Blue Suns.

As a matter of fact, i know someone who Kuril wants to lock up for money........

YOU!

Modifié par AntiChri5, 21 juillet 2010 - 07:49 .

[inversevideo]

Nightwriter wrote...

Inverse, I assume the word that was bleeped out was Nazis, yes?

I agree that the beating of that prisoner should be stopped for the very same reasons - for what it does to the guards.

However what I keep trying to say is that what's going on here is very different than, say, Nazis torturing Jews. The Jews were perfectly innocent and had done nothing wrong. The Gestapo were monsters for what they did. These guards are not hurting innocent Jews for no reason other than racism, they're hurting criminals and convicts in a maximum security prison. They're hurting a man who just killed another man.

We can go round the bend again with the whole they-could-be-innocent thing, but I just have quite a hard time believing they are. They're in that prison because they'd proven time and time again that they were dangerous. They're there because no other prison would hold them.

It makes no difference to me if Kuril is also a crook; it doesn't really change anything. I'm not trying to paint him as the white knight doing the right thing. He's bad, yes. He's a bad man hurting bad people.

I see where you are coming from, but I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the thought.
And I am not convinced that eveyone in 'Purgatory' is guilty.
There is just no way to know that given the information we have.
If you have the power, and the money, you can certainly arrange for your
rivals or political enemies to be 'disappeared' to someplace like
'Purgatory'; a nice deep, nasty hole, where you know they will not come
back from.pissed because he lost a sale.

In any event, if you speak to the prisoner next to the one being beaten, he will tell you the reason that prisoner is being beaten, is that the warden had plans to sell him, and it cost him when that prisoner was killed. 

Why did one person shank another? How do we know it was not a case of self defense?
The same prisoner, you speak to about beatings, tells you he has been afraid to take a shower for 3 months.

Let's assume that these are the worse of the worst.
Unredeemable sociopaths, with no respect for life.

What is the role of torture in such an environment?
It is not 'teaching' a lesson.
It is not curing the inmates.
Abusers are often abused as children, as was Jack, so heaping more abuse on them  is not going to 'fix' them.

So who does the torture benefit?

I understand that there are many folks who want to know that bad people get their just deserts in this life.
But is prison not enough?
Is 'capital punishment' not enough?

What need, exactly, is slaked by torturing others? Cui Bono? Who benefits?
In this case, I would say those who torture and/or condone torture benefit, because, for whatever reason, it makes them feel better about themselves, and/or their world. It provides a sense of power.
Which, I maintain, is not really in the best interest of those doing the torturing, as it dehumanizies (yes I know there are aliens) the torturer as much as the tortured.

Modifié par inversevideo, 21 juillet 2010 - 08:06 .

[Nightwriter]

Torturing benefits no one and should be stopped. I have said this since the beginning. That is not the issue.

The issue is whether the man in that cell has human rights or not. Does he? If he's sadistically brutalized countless victims in the past, should it matter if he is beaten?

I am trying to tell people that this is not a case of rescuing an innocent from a beating by crooks because he is an innocent. This is a case of rescuing a guilty man from a beating by crooks because it's making the crooks worse, which harms the greater good.

My opinion of Purgatory's inmates doesn't just come from nowhere, you know. We see men who are so violent they have to be separated by mass effect fields. Kuril tells you if the prisoners get too bad they have to be ejected into space. One man freely admits he's killed 20 people, and that's nothing. Another man is muttering to himself, "I hear the screamin' in my head all the time. It's nice, yeah."

I'm not, like, inventing this image of a prison full of criminals and psychopaths.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 21 juillet 2010 - 08:16 .

[Soverign 666]

[quote]Nightwriter wrote...

Torturing benefits no one and should be stopped. I have said this since the beginning. That is not the issue.





It benefited me when I beat the guy in thanes loyalty mission

Modifié par Soverign 666, 21 juillet 2010 - 09:06 .

[inversevideo]

Nightwriter wrote...

Torturing benefits no one and should be stopped. I have said this since the beginning. That is not the issue.

The issue is whether the man in that cell has human rights or not. Does he? If he's sadistically brutalized countless victims in the past, should it matter if he is beaten?

I am trying to tell people that this is not a case of rescuing an innocent from a beating by crooks because he is an innocent. This is a case of rescuing a guilty man from a beating by crooks because it's making the crooks worse, which harms the greater good.

My opinion of Purgatory's inmates doesn't just come from nowhere, you know. We see men who are so violent they have to be separated by mass effect fields. Kuril tells you if the prisoners get too bad they have to be ejected into space. One man freely admits he's killed 20 people, and that's nothing. Another man is muttering to himself, "I hear the screamin' in my head all the time. It's nice, yeah."

I'm not, like, inventing this image of a prison full of criminals and psychopaths.

Well, if you ask me, and you just did, I think that there are lines which one ought to try to avoid crossing.

It should matter if another person is tortured. What they did is irrelevant.
If torture is not serving any purpose, and is degrading to the torturer and the tortured then why do it?

As to why feel sorry for scum?
Because they are people, regardless of what they did.
They need to be stopped, from hurting others, either by locking them up, or putting them down.
But that is not the same as saying they forfeit being treated like people, because they don't act like people.

I don't know what experiences lead those prisoners to be the people they are.
I don't know if they are sick in the head, abused, or just evil (whatever that means),
I only know that the humane thing is to stop them, isolate them, and if need be, put them down.

Of course, if you are asking whether or not it is realistic that Shepard strolls onto Purgatory, and interferes with that particular situation, my answer is no; it is not realistic.  Get what you came for and get out. If there is someone to report the abuse to, that would be where to take the complaint, but it does not seem realistic that Shepard would risk a confrontation, and possible harm to his crew.  These are Blus Suns and not much better than the criminals they are guarding. 

Now the 800 pound gorilla, in the discussion, is would anyone feel different if one of those prisoners hurt their family?   Yes. Probably. Anger and hurt, and a desire for vengeance would lead me to think up quite a few tortures of my own, for anyone that hurt one of mine. 

Is that hypocritical?  No, maybe. Honestly, I do not know.
I recognize, that individual feelings often blind us to what is right.
Which is why the 'state' does not allow us to take the law into our own hands; and we all agree to work out differences, via the 'system'. Which recognizes that torture, for torture's sake is not humane.
It's far from a perfect system, but it keeps us from becoming like those who perpertrate the wrong in the first place.

Modifié par inversevideo, 21 juillet 2010 - 09:08 .

[thq95]

Yeah, I let him get beat, just think if it was a guy like that serial killer that gets loose...

[chapa3]

I stopped it, a recipe for a prison riot, stasis field be damned. Course, looking back, no difference really, as they all were serial killers and blue suns mercs anyway.

[Nightwriter]

inversevideo wrote...

Well, if you ask me, and you just did, I think that there are lines which one ought to try to avoid crossing.

It should matter if another person is tortured. What they did is irrelevant.
If torture is not serving any purpose, and is degrading to the torturer and the tortured then why do it?

As to why feel sorry for scum?
Because they are people, regardless of what they did.
They need to be stopped, from hurting others, either by locking them up, or putting them down.
But that is not the same as saying they forfeit being treated like people, because they don't act like people.

I don't know what experiences lead those prisoners to be the people they are.
I don't know if they are sick in the head, abused, or just evil (whatever that means),
I only know that the humane thing is to stop them, isolate them, and if need be, put them down.

Of course, if you are asking whether or not it is realistic that Shepard strolls onto Purgatory, and interferes with that particular situation, my answer is no; it is not realistic.  Get what you came for and get out. If there is someone to report the abuse to, that would be where to take the complaint, but it does not seem realistic that Shepard would risk a confrontation, and possible harm to his crew.  These are Blus Suns and not much better than the criminals they are guarding. 

Now the 800 pound gorilla, in the discussion, is would anyone feel different if one of those prisoners hurt their family?   Yes. Probably. Anger and hurt, and a desire for vengeance would lead me to think up quite a few tortures of my own, for anyone that hurt one of mine. 

Is that hypocritical?  No, maybe. Honestly, I do not know.
I recognize, that individual feelings often blind us to what is right.
Which is why the 'state' does not allow us to take the law into our own hands; and we all agree to work out differences, via the 'system'. Which recognizes that torture, for torture's sake is not humane.
It's far from a perfect system, but it keeps us from becoming like those who perpertrate the wrong in the first place.

Firstly, I'm not sure you'd call what those guards were doing to him "torture". It was more like just a beating.

Secondly, are you saying torture or aggressive force is wrong in all cases and must be stopped in any given situation no matter what?

[Sajuro]

I stop him  and I usually tell the guard they are better than that.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

Sajuro wrote...


I stop him  and I usually tell the guard they are better than that.

but half of those dudes are horrible criminals... :huh:literally wouldn't care if some galactic terrorist, or serial murderer got the **** kicked out of them by a prison warden... none of my shepard's business...

one guy bragged about blowing up several space stations and killing alot people... :whistle:"maybe the other guy deserved getting beat... could have been similar or worst as this inmate bragging about destroying space stations... maybe he started it first with the prison guy", hmmm 

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 22 juillet 2010 - 07:56 .

[Nightwriter]

thq95 wrote...

Yeah, I let him get beat, just think if it was a guy like that serial killer that gets loose...

The first time through, when I told the guard to lay off him, I thought he was that serial killer who gets loose and sends you the email.

I thought this was another Elnora type paragon-decision-biting-you-in-the-ass things.

[inversevideo]

Nightwriter wrote...


Firstly, I'm not sure you'd call what those guards were doing to him "torture". It was more like just a beating.

Secondly, are you saying torture or aggressive force is wrong in all cases and must be stopped in any given situation no matter what?

The use of force, and how much to apply, is dictated by the situation.

That said, I believe that there are lines one ought to try not to cross.

One of those news shows did a piece once on snipers. The reporter asked the sheriff why he thought that more towns and cities were getting SWAT or special response teams that utilized snipers. The sheriff thought for awhile and replied, 'because some people just need killing'.

I can't say that the use of force, including deadly force is wrong in all cases, because there are cases where some people just need killing. 

Do you go all 'Jack Bauer' on someone, if you suspect they can tell you how to defuse that nuke that is about to go off in an hour?  You may have to.

That is different than saying that once someone is convicted of a crime, they are no longer entitled to be treated like a human.  That is a slippery slope that diminishes us all.  Once you belive that, then you are able to commit horrible cirmes against another human, because 'they deserve it'; rape, torture, experimentation, murder, gross neglect. All in the name of punishment? I am not willing to go there.   I think we lose much, when we lose compassion and empathy.  

Again, not to say that I would not feel anger and a need for vengeance, if one of those scumbags hurt my family or friends. But I am saying that neither I nor anyone else shoud be allowed to torture for the sake of vengeance.

Modifié par inversevideo, 22 juillet 2010 - 08:38 .

[inversevideo]

-double post sorry

Modifié par inversevideo, 22 juillet 2010 - 08:36 .

[Nightwriter]

inversevideo wrote...

The use of force, and how much to apply, is dictated by the situation.

That said, I believe that there are lines one ought to try not to cross.

One of those news shows did a piece once on snipers. The reporter asked the sheriff why he thought that more towns and cities were getting SWAT or special response teams that utilized snipers. The sheriff thought for awhile and replied, 'because some people just need killing'.

I can't say that the use of force, including deadly force is wrong in all cases, because there are cases where some people just need killing. 

Do you go all 'Jack Bauer' on someone, if you suspect they can tell you how to defuse that nuke that is about to go off in an hour?  You may have to.

That is different than saying that once someone is convicted of a crime, they are no longer entitled to be treated like a human.  That is a slippery slope that diminishes us all.  Once you belive that, then you are able to commit horrible cirmes against another human, because 'they deserve it'; rape, torture, experimentation, murder, gross neglect. All in the name of punishment? I am not willing to go there.   I think we lose much, when we lose compassion and empathy.  

Again, not to say that I would not feel anger and a need for vengeance, if one of those scumbags hurt my family or friends. But I am saying that neither I nor anyone else shoud be allowed to torture for the sake of vengeance.

... I think you're right, actually. I just have a harder time with mercy than most. I suppose I'm too close to it. 

So this man in the cell - let us say he is guilty of everything he is accused of.

Should he, in your opinion, be killed, or left to rot in this prison? Keeping in mind that while in this prison he is going to be prey to all kinds of the sort of treatments you object to - punishment by guards, torture by guards, harm from other inmates? Keeping in mind his continued existence is being paid for at great cost by the innocent people of his homeworld?

[inversevideo]

Nightwriter wrote...

inversevideo wrote...

The use of force, and how much to apply, is dictated by the situation.

That said, I believe that there are lines one ought to try not to cross.

One of those news shows did a piece once on snipers. The reporter asked the sheriff why he thought that more towns and cities were getting SWAT or special response teams that utilized snipers. The sheriff thought for awhile and replied, 'because some people just need killing'.

I can't say that the use of force, including deadly force is wrong in all cases, because there are cases where some people just need killing. 

Do you go all 'Jack Bauer' on someone, if you suspect they can tell you how to defuse that nuke that is about to go off in an hour?  You may have to.

That is different than saying that once someone is convicted of a crime, they are no longer entitled to be treated like a human.  That is a slippery slope that diminishes us all.  Once you belive that, then you are able to commit horrible cirmes against another human, because 'they deserve it'; rape, torture, experimentation, murder, gross neglect. All in the name of punishment? I am not willing to go there.   I think we lose much, when we lose compassion and empathy.  

Again, not to say that I would not feel anger and a need for vengeance, if one of those scumbags hurt my family or friends. But I am saying that neither I nor anyone else shoud be allowed to torture for the sake of vengeance.

... I think you're right, actually. I just have a harder time with mercy than most. I suppose I'm too close to it. 

So this man in the cell - let us say he is guilty of everything he is accused of.

Should he, in your opinion, be killed, or left to rot in this prison? Keeping in mind that while in this prison he is going to be prey to all kinds of the sort of treatments you object to - punishment by guards, torture by guards, harm from other inmates? Keeping in mind his continued existence is being paid for at great cost by the innocent people of his homeworld?

I think you know you are 'loading' the question towards a specific answer? maybe, a little?

Well, I have no problem, with 'Capital Punishment', providing that you can be absolutely sure , that the person you caught, is the person who did the crime.  We are often kinder, to animals, by putting down the rabid or the feral, who are a danger to themselves or others, than we are to people. 

But you do have to ask yourself, 'under what circumstance?'.  Is the person mentally capable of knowing right from wrong? Are we talking someone with a normal IQ or someone with an IQ of 55?

Normal IQ, just likes the killing, then society has a right to protect itself, and putting down psycho-paths.

But consider, there may be a 3rd alternative, afterall, the whole thing with 'Purgatory' just seems a bit flawed. At least, until you realize it was setup to extort money, make money, and nothing else.

How about you set the prisoners free?  Sort of.. the catch is they will be grounded, perhaps for quite a few decades, on a frontier world.

In 1788 the British established a colony at Botany Bay Australia, by essentially emptying their prisons, and sending the population to an untamed continent, with no easy way back; similar to what was done before, with Maryland and Virginia, in the Americas. This was done, in part for economic reasons, and in part, due to pressure from reformers who found the state of British prisons to be deplorable. The prisoners, now colonists worked, and sent back lumber, minerals, cotton, etc, to England; thus actually contributing to the society.

In a spacefaring society, most prisoners could be sent to colony worlds, and deprived of transport back.
A chance at a new life. It would be a hard life, given that 'man' often preys on 'man', but it could be a new start for many.

Modifié par inversevideo, 22 juillet 2010 - 09:29 .

[inversevideo]

Nightwriter wrote...

thq95 wrote...

Yeah, I let him get beat, just think if it was a guy like that serial killer that gets loose...

The first time through, when I told the guard to lay off him, I thought he was that serial killer who gets loose and sends you the email.

I thought this was another Elnora type paragon-decision-biting-you-in-the-ass things.

Actually, he is the serial killer guy.

When you speak, to the prisoner, next to the one who was beaten, and you ask if he knows anything, the prisoner you ask replies something like .. "naw, that's Billy, he don't know 'nothin', warden is pissed that he offed someone who was valuable'.

When you get back, to the Normandy, you get an email from Billy, that is untraceable (not sure what kind of communication security Cerberus uses that a serial killer can get your address, or maybe Billy has 'skilz').
'Billy' brags about 'doing' some folks, and threatens to come after you, at some point.  So I guess you will see 'Billy' again in ME3.  Maybe he will be a recruit? Or maybe you will just rid the galaxy of him.

In any event, it is not exactly the same, as the Elnora situation. Elnora reached behind her back, for a gun, so I kacked her. But even if you chose to let Elnora go, you had a choice.

With Billy, you had no choice to stop him. So his actions are not on you.

Modifié par inversevideo, 28 juillet 2010 - 06:21 .

[MerrickShep]

I tell the guard he is "Better than this"

[Falcon509]

It'd be funny if there was a "You're doing it wrong... Here let me show you" option.

[Cypher0020]

if I remember to click it, I stop them...



really, locked up in space...and being to a bloody pulp like that is pure sadism on the guard's behalf.... it doesn't accomplish anything

[Whatever42]

I think the prisoners probably deserved it. The first time, though, I stopped the guard because I thought it was bad for them.



On subsquent playthroughs, knowing full well that I'm about to massacre all the guards, let 'em have their fun.